Ivanhoe line (via Coalville) - potential reopening?

[The exile]

I think my basic point is that either a reopening is sensible or it isn't.

If it's sensible, it shouldn't need a campaign. A sane government should just say "yeah we're doing this in 202x, here's the money, NR and TOCs etc start your planning".

If it isn't sensible, the campaign group shouldn't be indulged just because they make enough noise.

I realise the DfT don't care, that's actually what I'm complaining about. That we're forced to make them care.

But there is more than one category of "sensible" when it comes to large scale projects.

There are the ones which we cannot do without or are so beneficial (in a direct financial sense) that it would be stupid not to get them done as quickly as possible - which, to me, are the ones that would fit in your category of "shouldn't need a campaign".

Most projects aren't like that (or at least aren't so unambiguously so) - so a campaign may be needed either:

1. to draw attention to the need,
2. to raise awareness of the indirect benefits,
3. to persuade of the merits of prioritising that particular project over others or, of course, a combination of the three.

There is a difference between "indulging" a campaign group "just because they make enough noise" and recognising the strength of local opinion in favour of (or indeed against) a project.

Presumably the credibility of a campaign group is not measured by the amount of noise it itself makes, but (to a certain extent) the amount of noise it is able to persuade others to make!

 

[james60059]

but a reverse at Knighton Sth Jn is the more likely initial option.

Is there anywhere else on the UK network where such a move happens outside a station?

The only place I know off the top of my head for such a move is in Ireland when they switch ends to access Killarney Station but of course there's a big difference between a quaint branch line in Ireland as opposed to a busy mainline in England.

 

[Western Sunset]

Coombe Junction on the Looe branch is one, off the top of my head.

 

[duffield]

Is there anywhere else on the UK network where such a move happens outside a station?. The only place I know off the top of my head for such a move is in Ireland when they switch ends to access Killarney Station but of course there's a big difference between a quaint branch line in Ireland as opposed to a busy mainline in England.

EMR can run Nottingham to Leicester/London services via Radford and Trowell junctions, then reverse at Ilkeston Junction and then run through Toton to Trent when there's engineering work between Mansfield junction and Trent East. But this reversal isn't in the normal timetable.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not if pax from those towns have to change at Burton to access the West Midlands, I fear.

A sensible idea in the medium term to ensure a good connection to the WM conurbation would be electrification of Lichfield TV to Burton and extension of Cross City Line services to provide a greater frequency with a station at Alrewas.
Edit: As requested by administrator- link to new thread on said subject: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merits-of-lichfield-to-burton-electrification.254722/

 

[D6130]

Is there anywhere else on the UK network where such a move happens outside a station?. The only place I know off the top of my head for such a move is in Ireland when they switch ends to access Killarney Station but of course there's a big difference between a quaint branch line in Ireland as opposed to a busy mainline in England.

I wouldn't exactly call it a quaint branch line....Mallow-Tralee is more of a secondary main line.

The other place where it happens in Ireland is Limerick Junction, where Limerick-Waterford trains in both directions reverse at Keane's points in order to serve the station.

 

[Kite159]

Is there anywhere else on the UK network where such a move happens outside a station?. The only place I know off the top of my head for such a move is in Ireland when they switch ends to access Killarney Station but of course there's a big difference between a quaint branch line in Ireland as opposed to a busy mainline in England.

Newark where some trains from Lincoln to Nottingham will reverse after calling at Northgate. Like this example (0516 Lincoln Central to Nottingham)

Realtime Trains | 2T48 0516 Lincoln Central to Nottingham | 18/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2T48 0516 departure from Lincoln Central to Nottingham on 18/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

As for reopening the line for passenger services, even with the time penalty of a reversal at the Leicester end, it will be good to see. Even if stations are basic but functional (like some of the PTE stations opened in Manchester/Yorkshire in the 80s

 

[RT4038]

I think my basic point is that either a reopening is sensible or it isn't.

That entirely depends on the angle from which it is being viewed? Is the re-opening operating subsidy neutral? If not it can quite easily be seen as not sensible. Are there wider benefits? Who is going to look at every possible re-opening, or indeed new build line ever proposed? Only campaign groups can realistically help with such appraisals. After all, if no-one is shouting, why bother spend the money........

 

[snowball]

That entirely depends on the angle from which it is being viewed? Is the re-opening operating subsidy neutral? If not it can quite easily be seen as not sensible. Are there wider benefits? Who is going to look at every possible re-opening, or indeed new build line ever proposed? Only campaign groups can realistically help with such appraisals. After all, if no-one is shouting, why bother spend the money........

Don't all (line as distinct from station) reopenings require an increase in operating subsidy?

 

[RT4038]

Surely all reopenings require an increase in operating subsidy?

And as Government do not want to be increasing operating subsidy, very few re-openings will be seen as sensible. There might be an odd one that gets done on the basis of a good pressure group.........

 

[70014IronDuke]

If it works in the timetable and there isn't something that clearly demonstrates a drop in performance or stops a strategic aim, NR can't reject it.

OK, but what's your opinion then?

It's a very well used two-track trunk route. Last time I looked (from the public timetable) it seemed difficult enough to put in a stop at Willington on most of the XCs to Nottingham without the fasts getting checked before Derby, and Willington probably has a far better case for more trains than Peartree.

(I lived in Peartree Rd 50 years ago, before the station reopened. Nice to have, but hardly a strategic stop.)

Depends on the connection, time it correctly at Burton and why wouldn't people use it to go south? Connect into the 0738 or 0752 and you are in Brum by 0830.

I'm sure you'd get some commuters if you did that, but my feeling is that commuters on such routes would find changing trains most off-putting. They want to board a train and relax (or at least forget about the journey itself) to their destination.

If they had to change, I'd posit most would just drive, or drive to Tamworth and get the train.

I lived and worked in Burton-on-Trent for six years. The entire road corridor between Coalville and Burton is absolutely choked - I'd go out for an early evening ride on my bike and frequently overtake queues of traffic. Both Derby and Burton have significant in-bound commuting from this area: probably over 50% of our staff lived in the Swadlincote/Ashby area, and those in my office would regularly come in fuming about how long it had taken them to drive in. Derby is also the retail centre for the area.

That's very interesting, and I bow to your local knowledge. When I lived in Derby (in the 70s), Burton seemed far further away than the 12 miles in reality (in terms of commuting) and I could detect no meaningful links whatsoever with the small places between there and Coalville.

The case for reopening the northern end, at least as a beginning, is perhaps far stronger than I imagined.

 

[The Planner]

...Willington probably has a far better case for more trains than Peartree...

Willington is easy enough. The fast train is at Stenson nominally around 6 or 7 minutes behind it. Headway is 3½ minutes so it should fit.

 

[jfowkes]

That entirely depends on the angle from which it is being viewed? Is the re-opening operating subsidy neutral? If not it can quite easily be seen as not sensible. Are there wider benefits? Who is going to look at every possible re-opening, or indeed new build line ever proposed? Only campaign groups can realistically help with such appraisals. After all, if no-one is shouting, why bother spend the money........

And as Government do not want to be increasing operating subsidy, very few re-openings will be seen as sensible. There might be an odd one that gets done on the basis of a good pressure group.........

Yes, I agree that "sensible" is subjective and relative. One of my biggest complaints about UK railways is that there is no plan or goals to which it might be possible to get a more objective assessment made (I appreciate 100% objectivity is impossible).

If there were specific national goals (for example reducing private car journeys by X per year, or increasing rail freight by Y per year) and local goals (for example reducing congestion or local pollution levels) then it would be a lot easier to appraise schemes on the basis of contributing to reaching those goals, relative to the cost of it.

As it stands, it seems all just a bit arbitrary, not to mention slow as molasses. I would like it to be a bit less arbitrary, a bit less slow and a bit more ambitious. I don't think that's too much to ask, really.

 

[Shred Metal]

I lived and worked in Burton-on-Trent for six years. The entire road corridor between Coalville and Burton is absolutely choked - I'd go out for an early evening ride on my bike and frequently overtake queues of traffic. Both Derby and Burton have significant in-bound commuting from this area: probably over 50% of our staff lived in the Swadlincote/Ashby area, and those in my office would regularly come in fuming about how long it had taken them to drive in. Derby is also the retail centre for the area.

Yeah I’d agree with this.

I can see the services being used by commuters, and maybe both ways.. as I’m sure Amazon were involving themselves in the campaign at some point recently.

And, as far as I’m aware, the only regular freight services come from the south and reverse into Bardon Quarry - way short of any conflict with Coalville town.

 

[The exile]

Don't all (line as distinct from station) reopenings require an increase in operating subsidy?

In theory no - in practice probably yes.

 

[Bald Rick]

If Burton to Leicester is a good idea to open, then it should just be opened without the need for campaign groups to make the case for it.

How do you know it’s a good idea? It might not be?

I just don't think which lines get the attention should be down to which are lucky enough to have a group of dedicated volunteers willing to fight for it.

agreed. The volunteers for this proposal are fighting for it. But I’d it a good idea or not? Hiw can you tell one way or the other?

There should be a value for money case demonstrated

Aha.

but the government and DfT should be actively doing that, not asking others to do their homework.

There’s hundreds of such proposals. How do you prioritise?

I think my basic point is that either a reopening is sensible or it isn't.

Who knows if this one is or isn’t, unless someone does some work on it?

 

[Mikey C]

I'm sure you'd get some commuters if you did that, but my feeling is that commuters on such routes would find changing trains most off-putting. They want to board a train and relax (or at least forget about the journey itself) to their destination. If they had to change, I'd posit most would just drive, or drive to Tamworth and get the train.

Especially as it's only a hourly service. Miss your connection on the way home from work, and you face a long wait at Burton for the next Coalville train.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Good to hear progress being made I wonder if with this it may open the line as a diversion for intercity trains if the line north of Leicester goes to pot, I am quietly looking forward to this line reopening and giving Burton back a direct link to Coalville since Arriva took away the 29/29A during covid.

 

[jfowkes]

There’s hundreds of such proposals. How do you prioritise?

Who knows if this one is or isn’t, unless someone does some work on it?

If we (as a country) were actually serious about these things, the DfT (and/or GBR if/when it exists) would be working on all of this. The government would have investment in public transport as a priority and direct these and other public bodies to do the necessary work for prioritising and funding these schemes.

 

[Bald Rick]

If we (as a country) were actually serious about these things, the DfT (and/or GBR if/when it exists) would be working on all of this.

They are working on it. Hence these proposals coming forwards. But they still need prioritising.

 

[Techniquest]

They are working on it. Hence these proposals coming forwards. But they still need prioritising.

Absolutely Locally, there's been an interest in re-opening the old railway to Rotherwas, which would be a short stub off the mainline in south-east Hereford. On rare occasions it gets attention, but it never lasts and anyone who knows anything about railways would know it won't work.

There was another example that came to mind but it went as fast as it came, so I'll stick with my local example. At least it isn't fully bonkers, which would be the case if it was suggested to re-open the line to Ross-on-Wye.

As for the Ivanhoe Line, a quick glance at my Sustrans map for the area does suggest the partial re-opening could work well. Direct trains to Birmingham would be nice, but I think that's incredibly unlikely. Just having them between Burton-on-Trent and Coalville would be a good start.

I'd like to see the whole line open to Leicester, but that's just incredibly unlikely any time soon. Building the bit for the more populated area first makes much more sense

 

[JKF]

The cynic in me says to expect a lot more press releases around the Restoring Your Railway scheme over the next few weeks, to take the heat off the decision to cancel the northern part of HS2. Whether they lead to anything is moot.

 

[zwk500]

As for the Ivanhoe Line, a quick glance at my Sustrans map for the area does suggest the partial re-opening could work well. Direct trains to Birmingham would be nice, but I think that's incredibly unlikely. Just having them between Burton-on-Trent and Coalville would be a good start.

Direct trains to Birmingham via Knighton Junction would be very uncompetitive against the car. Burton initially, maybe a few extensions to Derby if there's space there would be a sensible option.

 

[Techniquest]

Direct trains to Birmingham via Knighton Junction would be very uncompetitive against the car. Burton initially, maybe a few extensions to Derby if there's space there would be a sensible option.

That's what I meant, Coalville-Birmingham via the northern part of the line. No sane person would surely think Coalville-outskirts of Leicester-Birmingham would be a good idea!

 

[zwk500]

That's what I meant, Coalville-Birmingham via the northern part of the line. No sane person would surely think Coalville-outskirts of Leicester-Birmingham would be a good idea!

You'd not skip Burton though given the train would run so close to it, and I don't think reversals at Burton station are signalled.

 

[Techniquest]

You'd not skip Burton though given the train would run so close to it, and I don't think reversals at Burton station are signalled.

Certainly an option then if the line gets a passenger service back, which hopefully it will do at some point. I'd say the best way to begin services would absolutely be a Coalville to Burton-on-Trent shuttle, then go from there. Maybe with a peak time express to Birmingham avoiding Burton, just maybe. That bit's more me wanting the third side of the triangle of lines though

 

[M7R]

I live near Coalville and the local FB groups are full of moaners and angry people about it not going to Leicester but none have read the info from NR etc or even bothered to think about it in detail.

South of Coalville there is a lot of potential freight traffic, there is a couple of big quarries with many paths for big heavy stone trains. You would have to fit the passenger paths in and around these… which brings us to the next points…

The line is also single for a lot (if not all) of it, I can’t fully remember as it’s been a while since I followed the line, but having walked over various bits on my jaunts in the countryside lots is single track so that limits the options for passing..

Then you get to the issue of the north chord missing and the land built on, so now your looking at a reversal somewhere, which eats into capacity on the main line,

It is also tied into Leicester remodeling which isn’t happening right now and the money for the opening is a set amount.. ie we have X amount what can you open with that? Oh and by the way you have until the next election to sort it all out (not sure if that’s just get it costed and the wheels in motion.. Ie signed off but I guess so as the chance of it being finished is 0) and clearly sorting a missing chord and / or adding passing loops isn’t cheap.

North of Coalville very little runs, I think last time I checked there is a coupe trains a week that’s it, so pathing for north is a lot easier and you don’t need any extra infrastructure as such I am guessing, so cheaper and quicker meaning you hit the budget and time restrictions too.

Once north it open and if it’s used then campaign for phase 2 getting into Leicester, but alot of the locals don’t understand or see this,

 

[Basil Jet]

The line is also single for a lot (if not all) of it, I can’t fully remember

According to Quail [2018], from the Leicester end:

13 miles single
3 miles double
[Coalville]
3,5 miles single
10 miles double

There is a double track curve towards Burton/Derby, and double track curve with single lead junction towards Birmingham.

 

[M7R]

Thanks. I knew it was a fair bit of single the Leicester end as I have crossed over it various places driving etc and it’s single.

 

[Kettledrum]

You'd not skip Burton though given the train would run so close to it, and I don't think reversals at Burton station are signalled.

How complicated (or expensive) would it be to install additional signalling at Burton to enable reversals?

(Either for the driver to change ends and enable the train to continue in the Birmingham direction, or to terminate the train at Burton and send it back down the Ivanhoe line to Coalville)