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How can Paddington - Penzance services be sped up

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randyrippley

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Reopen the section of the S&DJR between the Berks & Hants and Templecombe
Redouble Templecombe-Salisbury and route the stone trains that way
 
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JonathanH

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Reopen the section of the S&DJR between the Berks & Hants and Templecombe
Redouble Templecombe-Salisbury and route the stone trains that way
Is there a convenient site for an alternative terminal somewhere other than the sites on the GWML on the way into London?
 

Bald Rick

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The 10:20 Penzance to Paddington is timed as 5 hours 7 mins on RTT, what could be done to improve journey times between Penzance and London Paddington.


Taking stops out is by far the best value for money.

My understanding is the Berks and Hants has been optimised pretty much as far as it will go already.

correct.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Reopen the section of the S&DJR between the Berks & Hants and Templecombe
Redouble Templecombe-Salisbury and route the stone trains that way

Why would the freight companies wish to divert their trains that way. They have access rights to the more direct route via the B&H. Running a more circuitous route will ‘bust’ the turnarounds of the trains thus needing more wagons, locos and crew and in doing so add more cost.
 

randyrippley

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Why would the freight companies wish to divert their trains that way. They have access rights to the more direct route via the B&H. Running a more circuitous route will ‘bust’ the turnarounds of the trains thus needing more wagons, locos and crew and in doing so add more cost.
They may not wish to, but ultimately if the powers-that-be decide passengers take priority then they'd have to comply.
Either that or build 100mph freight trains that don't get in the way
 

HamworthyGoods

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They may not wish to, but ultimately if the powers-that-be decide passengers take priority then they'd have to comply.

That’s not how track access rights work…

Aside from which it’s more likely in this day and age that freight will take priority.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Either that or build 100mph freight trains that don't get in the way

The wear and tear on the track of class 7 aggregate trains running at 100mph would be horrendously expensive.
 
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Irascible

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Is 140mph running on the Bristol main line ever likely to be a thing - the heavy-duty OHLE is certainly specified for it? You could then route fast Devon and Cornwall services the 'Great Way Round' with electrification and upgrade of Bristol to Exeter to 125mph. The Berks and Hants is too 'bouncy castle' and plagued with heavy stone trains for further improvement. West of Exeter electrification of the South Devon banks would help.

Isn't it mosty full as it is? I don't think you'll match the times going that way even with 125mph over the Somerset levels, it's what, 20 mins more as it is at best? doing the levels if it's even possible ) would help the traffic to the north, of course, but that's a completely seperate matter.

From having used these a few times recently, one thing would be a dedicated fleet of higher powered units, because they always seem to crawl up the bank before Plymouth. Or simply get the wires up! All the way to Penzance would be difficult to justify, but Plymouth you certainly could, even if you had to have a short section of diesel or battery running along Dawlish (though I'm not 100% convinced by this as there's a similar electrified line in Scotland).

Had thought we'd decided the seawall isn't a problem for OLE - people in Dawlish might be a bigger problem! I don't think OLE there is going to get you a lot unless the train is actually calling at Dawlish, it's a slow section of track. The trains are still going to need an onboard power source for Cornwall anyway.

RIP up the track after Exeter transfer to nat express coach to Penzance, would that be quicker? (In jest)

If you can get the transfer done fast enough, yes :P although better to decant everyone at Tivvy Parkway. Might be a few issues making it a stopping service though, the A30 does tend to go past a lot of places...

In a hypothetical world, the ideal solution would be to build a new tunnelled alignment to high speed standards between Exeter and Newton Abbott.

But as pointed out on so many threads, it’ll never happen in a million years.

Not just that section, it's pretty twisty all the way to Plymouth. Never really looked in detail if you could selectively cutoff the worst bits or if you'd need a mostly new alignment - one of the civils people here ever had an idle look? ( and no, don't dig up 100 year old plans :D )
 

61653 HTAFC

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How much would more electrification help?
It would potentially improve acceleration from stops, and deal with the Devon banks a bit better than diesel, but I doubt it would make a massive difference on its own.
It’s been sped up a little already with most trains running fast Reading-Taunton. That wasn’t always the case. Through Cornwall it has to be all things to all men as Penzance isn’t necessarily the main destination just the end of the line.
There used to be one service per day in each direction that skipped Reading and ran fast between Paddington and Taunton, and a few that called at Reading but skipped Taunton. Is this no longer the case?
 

dk1

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There used to be one service per day in each direction that skipped Reading and ran fast between Paddington and Taunton, and a few that called at Reading but skipped Taunton. Is this no longer the case?

As far as I am aware they no longer exist. It’s the standard pattern with maybe the odd extra call at certain times. The stopping service every two hours to Exeter with occasional extensions to Paignton/Plymouth tend to omit Tiverton Parkway.
 

stuu

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There used to be one service per day in each direction that skipped Reading and ran fast between Paddington and Taunton, and a few that called at Reading but skipped Taunton. Is this no longer the case?
Nothing skips Reading, one service each way skips Taunton. There is generally a standard pattern off peak with the fast hourly and semi-fast every two hours to Exeter. It would be good if the semi-fast were hourly too, but the Berks and Hants is surprisingly empty of people, and I suspect every two hours is the best service it has ever had
 

dk1

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Nothing skips Reading, one service each way skips Taunton. There is generally a standard pattern off peak with the fast hourly and semi-fast every two hours to Exeter. It would be good if the semi-fast were hourly too, but the Berks and Hants is surprisingly empty of people, and I suspect every two hours is the best service it has ever had

Indeed it certainly is a good service offered these days. Also a large amount of very heavy freight using the B&H.
 

irish_rail

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I have to say electrifying Devon in my view wouldn't save much time. The linespeed west of Newton abott is generally 60moh, which the trains achieve quickly on diesel, with the exception of Rattery Bank westbound and Hemerdon eastbound. However these locations I reckon you would only save a couple of minutes at most, not enough to make a difference in terms of the schedule.
 

PTR 444

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Not just that section, it's pretty twisty all the way to Plymouth. Never really looked in detail if you could selectively cutoff the worst bits or if you'd need a mostly new alignment - one of the civils people here ever had an idle look? ( and no, don't dig up 100 year old plans :D )
IMO they should have just built a brand new 125mph line alongside the A38 from Exeter to Plymouth in the late 70s/early 80s to coincide with the arrival of the Class 43 HST. Future proofing to allow higher line speeds in future should also have been factored in.
 

dk1

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I have to say electrifying Devon in my view wouldn't save much time. The linespeed west of Newton abott is generally 60moh, which the trains achieve quickly on diesel, with the exception of Rattery Bank westbound and Hemerdon eastbound. However these locations I reckon you would only save a couple of minutes at most, not enough to make a difference in terms of the schedule.

One of the reasons I got enthusiastic when Virgin XC ordered the 221s but alas TASS was never planned for installation in Devon & Cornwall unfortunately as would’ve been ideal.
 

YourMum666

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How much time would be saved if the service ran non stop to Exeter? And after Exeter it only called at Newton Abbott, Plymouth, Par, Truro, St Erth and Penzance ?
 

The Planner

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How much time would be saved if the service ran non stop to Exeter? And after Exeter it only called at Newton Abbott, Plymouth, Par, Truro, St Erth and Penzance ?
What would be the point? The 1004 does Paddington to Exeter with a stop at Reading in 2 hours. Take Reading out and you would save 3½/4 minutes. Taking out Totnes would probably get you to Plymouth 7 minutes earlier. I don't see why you would take out Liskeard, Bodmin, St Austell etc calls as you would have to find a replacement way of serving them. You would hone in on some of the big Plymouth dwells if you could.
 

cle

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It feels like the current fastest pattern would be a good standard one thinking of the Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall markets.

I would suggest that an ideal scenario along here would see 3tph instead of 2 (ignoring wires etc for now):

1tph Westbury (extended from Bedwyn) + a local or two to Reading/Padd-Newbury shuttles as determined. Frome once or twice a day.
1tph Exeter (extended to Paignton or Plymouth each hour if possible) - current semi-fast pattern, slightly sped up (no Hungerford/Pewsey, Newbury in peaks)
1tph Cornwall (Reading/Exeter/Plymouth - couple of peak Taunton calls - skips Totnes and Newton Abbot if the above runs extended)

That middle pattern could also potentially call at the incoming Devon stations - which in turn might spread demand otherwise headed to Taunton and Tiverton.
 

HamworthyGoods

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It feels like the current fastest pattern would be a good standard one thinking of the Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall markets.

I would suggest that an ideal scenario along here would see 3tph instead of 2 (ignoring wires etc for now):

1tph Westbury (extended from Bedwyn) + a local or two to Reading/Padd-Newbury shuttles as determined. Frome once or twice a day.
1tph Exeter (extended to Paignton or Plymouth each hour if possible) - current semi-fast pattern, slightly sped up (no Hungerford/Pewsey, Newbury in peaks)
1tph Cornwall (Reading/Exeter/Plymouth - couple of peak Taunton calls - skips Totnes and Newton Abbot if the above runs extended)

That middle pattern could also potentially call at the incoming Devon stations - which in turn might spread demand otherwise headed to Taunton and Tiverton.

With the Mendips freight traffic (the biggest freight contract in the UK) there’s unlikely to be paths for 3tph between Bedwyn and Westbury on the B&H in all hours. Indeed in some hours there isn’t even space for the missing Exeter semi-fast.

The route isn’t full of ‘white space’
 

stuu

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It feels like the current fastest pattern would be a good standard one thinking of the Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall markets.

I would suggest that an ideal scenario along here would see 3tph instead of 2 (ignoring wires etc for now):

1tph Westbury (extended from Bedwyn) + a local or two to Reading/Padd-Newbury shuttles as determined. Frome once or twice a day.
1tph Exeter (extended to Paignton or Plymouth each hour if possible) - current semi-fast pattern, slightly sped up (no Hungerford/Pewsey, Newbury in peaks)
1tph Cornwall (Reading/Exeter/Plymouth - couple of peak Taunton calls - skips Totnes and Newton Abbot if the above runs extended)

That middle pattern could also potentially call at the incoming Devon stations - which in turn might spread demand otherwise headed to Taunton and Tiverton.
Taunton is the third-busiest station west of Reading. In what world would it make sense to dramatically worsen the service at one of your biggest markets?
 

Irascible

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Taunton has a huge catchment area too - if I didn't use the SWR route to London I'd be driving up there, and I'm on the south coast. Exeter is nearer, but going the wrong way to catch a train going the other way is daft.
 

The Ham

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Any speeding up of services is likely to need to be a long game to obtain.

The Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL) is likely to be the thing which brings the most speed enhancement which is even vaguely on the table, however the problem with it is that there's limited services which are likely to use it (the Plymouth/Cornwall expresses and maybe the Exeter semi fasts if there's capacity to get them to it). There's certainly no capacity for more London services.

I've suggested in the past that the best way to get it built is to build the Okehampton route to Plymouth. Whilst this would appear counter intuitive key me explain.

With Crossrail 2 built there's scope to run more services out of Waterloo, if you also redouble the WofE line that would allow you to run the existing Exeter services and a new express service with limited stops.

Whilst that would be slower (end to end time) for some within London the journey time would be quicker (especially for Exeter Central) or at least no slower than waiting for the next express. The same would be true for getting to Plymouth via Okehampton.

Add in the faster (and in some cases direct) journey time from places like Portsmouth, Basingstoke, Woking, Southampton, Weymouth, Bournemouth and the like, which could increase demand then there's a good chance that passenger numbers would increase, over time that increase could be reasonably large.

This increase would be added by the increase in frequency between Exeter and Plymouth potentially generating a higher passenger flow between the two cities.

Perhaps to the extent that there's a need for additional services beyond the +1 from Waterloo.

With all that extra demand between Exeter and Plymouth the speed enhancement that the DAL would benefit more people, especially if you could run a new WofE line service which bypassed Exeter St David's (would need a new chord, assuming that is even remotely possible to build) with them also use the DAL (or probably divert the express that way and send the "existing" Exeter service via Okehampton). As that would be 3tph using the DAL (maybe 4tph if you could squeeze in a semi fast between the two cities as well).

Whilst still not a lot of services for a new line, it's still better than what would be the case with only the existing B&H line services.

Otherwise you're likely to be waiting on a HS Wales and West to get you your London trains to use the DAL.
 

Irascible

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I can't imagine the cost & objections to a southbound chord out of Exeter Central :s the WoE route needs more double track as it is, without adding demand beyond Exeter. I refuse to get drawn into another discussion about Okehampton, but that budget wuold also buy a fair bit of realignment on the existing route too. Add cash for Exeter resignalling into *any* increase in traffic, no matter the direction.
 

redengine

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Could I chuck in the idea of quadrupling Fairwood Junction to Clink Road Junction? Would simplify patching.
 

irish_rail

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Pathing wise, another signal section is desperately needed between Castle Cary and Somerton on the down, as the "fast" almost always catches up the "semi fast " here due to the very very long section.
 

devon_belle

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Exeter St David's (would need a new chord, assuming that is even remotely possible to build)
Now we're deep in speculation town [and at the risk of going too far off-topic], I would suggest that building the southern chord and re-siting Exeter St David's to be south of the river and flood channel would be the most useful option, as the Exmouth/WofE to Paignton/Plymouth traffic will probably be much larger than anything heading up to Barnstaple or even a re-opened line to Plymouth via Tavistock.
 

D6130

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How much time would be saved if the service ran non stop to Exeter? And after Exeter it only called at Newton Abbott, Plymouth, Par, Truro, St Erth and Penzance ?
You couldn't miss St Austell.... it's the largest settlement in Cornwall and has a large hinterland.
 
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