Northern have issued a "DO NOT TRAVEL" warning between Oxenholme and Windermere

[startingaparty]

Apparently due to staff shortages, they've issued a Do Not Travel warning for today. Does anyone know what passenger's rights are in this situation?

 

[AlterEgo]

They are unchanged. Northern are legally responsible for rerouting and/or replacement transport.

 

[Whistler40145]

Are the Windermere and Morecambe services crewed from the same depot?

 

[william.martin]

How come northern are so short staffed today, is it because there are more than usual drivers sick or is there a strike I don't know about or something completely different?

 

[Snow1964]

It's very confusing message

Why say do not travel
then say road transport has been requested
If they don't want you to travel why are they suggesting alternatives.

Its also a very poorly worded message for occasional traveller, because doesn't explain why if they can bring in road transport at some stage today, they can't reallocate some staff from elsewhere to run the service. Seems unlikely there are simply no other staff that can be shuffled around that sign the area, to get it covered, even if got to cascade staff from an area with no service due to engineering works.

Feels a rather pathetic management response to trying to run a service.

 

[Megafuss]

Good luck getting on the 555. It's usually rammed on a Saturday!

 

[td97]

The first arrival at Windermere is the 1353, and then runs for a portion of the afternoon before evening cancellations.
It's a poor message from Northern, which fails to fully inform passengers of their rights (e.g. that Northern will reimburse public bus tickets 555 or 41)

Due to a member of train crew being unavailable between Oxenholme Lake District and Windermere all lines are closed.
How does it affect your service:
Train services running to and from these stations will be cancelled. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
Our advice to our customers:
Services between Oxenholme and Windermere are currently being disrupted due to a member of train crew being unavailable
Train services are unable to run, there is no alternative road transport available in either direction.
Customers are advised not to travel on this route for the remainder of the day.
Northern apologise for the inconvenience caused by this disruption.
Effect on service:
Oxenholme - Windermere services will be cancelled in both directions.
Manchester Airport - Windermere services will be terminated and started from Preston.
Alternative travel suggestions:
To assist in customers completing their journey, ticket restrictions have been lifted with the following operators to allow Northern ticket holders to travel on their services:
TransPennine Express - Customers can travel between Oxenholme & Manchester Airport, Oxenholme & Liverpool Lime Street in either direction until the end of the day.
Avanti West Coast - Customers can travel between Oxenholme & Preston in either direction until the end of the day.
Customers travelling between Oxenholme - Windermere have the option to board Stagecoach buses. However, Northern tickets are not valid for travel on the local buses, customers will need to purchase a ticket from the bus operator.
Route 41 covers Oxenholme - Kendal (in both directions) this service runs every 30 minutes.
Route 555 covers Kendal - Staveley - Windermere (in both directions) this service runs every 30 minutes.
Other places to get more information:

 

[Ianigsy]

It does sound rather cut-and-paste; always gets me when operators say “all services are cancelled, no road transport available, do not travel” when you can’t if you wanted to.

I guess the message they want to put out is along the lines of “don’t come if you were only planning on a day trip, but if you’re coming from further away for a week in the Lakes, you can use any train to get to Oxenholme but you’ll have to make your own arrangements”.

What with the Morecambe line as well, it looks as if there are staffing issues in that part of the world- have Avanti and TPE been nabbing people from Northern?

 

[Llandudno]

it’s pathetic!

The only railway line serving the Lake District National Park, a weekend with decent weather it’s no wonder the roads and car parks are packed.

So much for encouraging Greener modes of transport to the Lakes - unbelievable!

I know let’s Nationalise Northern Rail …. Oh wait!

 

[StoneRoad]

Perhaps Northern need to recruit and train more staff, including extra drivers ...

Maybe relax the one-hour from the depot rule a bit ?

 

[Edsmith]

It's very confusing message

Why say do not travel
then say road transport has been requested
If they don't want you to travel why are they suggesting alternatives.

Its also a very poorly worded message for occasional traveller, because doesn't explain why if they can bring in road transport at some stage today, they can't reallocate some staff from elsewhere to run the service. Seems unlikely there are simply no other staff that can be shuffled around that sign the area, to get it covered, even if got to cascade staff from an area with no service due to engineering works.

Feels a rather pathetic management response to trying to run a service.

Surely they're duty bound to endeavour to provide road transport? But at the moment all they can do is advise people not to travel. Not great though.

 

[skyhigh]

Perhaps Northern need to recruit and train more staff, including extra drivers ...

Maybe relax the one-hour from the depot rule a bit ?

Why? There are loads of applicants within the distance requirements. That's not the limiting factor... if they had the funding for extra staff they'd easily fill the roles without relaxing the fatigue rules.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Northern hand out “DO NOT TRAVEL” messages like a salesman hands out unwanted flyers.

 

[Mountain Man]

it’s pathetic!

The only railway line serving the Lake District National Park, a weekend with decent weather it’s no wonder the roads and car parks are packed.

So much for encouraging Greener modes of transport to the Lakes - unbelievable!

I know let’s Nationalise Northern Rail …. Oh wait!

That's not really an accurate description. It might be the only line into the park. But it's only the most useful serving the South Eastern part. Penrith is a more useful station for the North Central and North Eastern Park and the Furness and Cumbrian Coast lines are better for the Western half

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern hand out “DO NOT TRAVEL” messages like a salesman hands out unwanted flyers.

There really needs to be a ban on doing this unless caused by external factors like weather or terrorism.

 

[yorksrob]

There really needs to be a ban on doing this unless caused by external factors like weather or terrorism.

Even then, they'd issued a do not travel notice at Leeds last year when most of the North of England was under a yellow weather warning (The South of England and parts of Scotland were under a red weather warning at the time, but a do not travel notice is highly inappropriate for a yellow warning).

 

[RailWonderer]

There really needs to be a ban on doing this unless caused by external factors like weather or terrorism.

Do not travel because we haven’t got our act together is a bit pathetic.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a poor message from Northern, which fails to fully inform passengers of their rights (e.g. that Northern will reimburse public bus tickets 555 or 41)

It’s an horrendous message, advising people they’ll have to pay for bus tickets without advising them of reimbursement rights.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There really needs to be a ban on doing this unless caused by external factors like weather or terrorism.

a do not travel notice is highly inappropriate for a yellow warning.

Do not travel because we haven’t got our act together is a bit pathetic.

Completely agree. 100% my thoughts.
As for the last message, I reckon it should actually be illegal, because it's a way of waiving compensation and delay repay rights, which if you ask me is completely outrageous.

 

[Snow1964]

Surely they're duty bound to endeavour to provide road transport? But at the moment all they can do is advise people not to travel. Not great though.

Duty ought to be get someone who knows how to operate a train first.

Its not like severe weather, line blocked etc.

Simply can't be bothered and refusing to tell paying customers their rights and entitlements, or get ticket acceptance in place

 

[Geeves]

Had a quick look at the rosters, First driver and guard come from Blackpool N and work 0642, 0756 0852, 1008 between them, 1057 is run by Barrow as 1147. Any one of four people being unavailable you have lost the entire morning or part of it

 

[RailWonderer]

I booked my ticket three days ago to travel today, so it’s not like I turned up on the day and chanced it and bought a ticket anyway so I’m claiming my money back from northern. They should be covering taxis as they haven’t put rail replacement buses on.

 

[CyrusWuff]

There really needs to be a ban on doing this unless caused by external factors like weather or terrorism.

Whilst it may look to be an overreaction, it's likely to be required by Northern's Passenger Information During Disruption plan.

Given the service is provided by one unit shuttling back and forth for most of the day, an uncovered turn will likely result in severe disruption (i.e. cancellations) for several hours.

At the very least, that will trigger CSL2 with a Red service, but Northern have classed it as a Black service.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Whilst it may look to be an overreaction, it's likely to be required by Northern's Passenger Information During Disruption plan.

Given the service is provided by one unit shuttling back and forth for most of the day, an uncovered turn will likely result in severe disruption (i.e. cancellations) for several hours.

At the very least, that will trigger CSL2 with a Red service, but Northern have classed it as a Black service.

Is this Passenger Information During Disruption plan public? Just wondering cause it sounds very curious from a German perspective.

Also, are there similar problems in England with replacement bus service not being available because they have staff shortages too?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is this Passenger Information During Disruption plan public? Just wondering cause it sounds very curious from a German perspective.

Every train company is supposed to publish their plan on their website. Northern's appears to be here on the Rail Delivery Group site though: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications/12874-customer-information-pledges/file.html

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

What's the difference between a 'Red' and a 'Black' service? Lovely glossy from RDG but presumably not terrribly connected to reality (just putting 2 + 2 together here)?!!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Every train company is supposed to publish their plan on their website. Northern's appears to be here on the Rail Delivery Group site though: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications/12874-customer-information-pledges/file.html

Wasn't aware of that document and not surprising its a complete work of fiction but then so is RDG.

 

[Horizon22]

What's the difference between a 'Red' and a 'Black' service? Lovely glossy from RDG but presumably not terrribly connected to reality (just putting 2 + 2 together here)?!!

That's not Northern's PIDD document, just an industry standard bunch of pledges for disruption which several TOCs have agreed to.

Northern's doesn't appear to be public although page 18 of their "Customer Information Delivery Plan 2020/2021 talks about "Do Not Travel" and has content very similar to what might be considered to be in a PIDD- https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/2022-01/Local_Delivery_Plan_2020.pdf

Every train company is supposed to publish their plan on their website. Northern's appears to be here on the Rail Delivery Group site though: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications/12874-customer-information-pledges/file.html

"Red" is normally severe disruption expected to last for several hours with alternative routes available & actively advertised. "Black" is normally a prologned suspension of a major route(s), very rarely triggered and is a significant incident which will normally be displayed nationwide on sites like NRE and could last into the next day.

Northern describe it (in the same document above) as:

RED This is when we will see multiple delays of over 15 minutes and a significant amount of cancellations can be expected. We also refer to this level as CSL2 which stands for Customer Service Level 2. CSL 2 will normally mean that replacement transport might be needed, trains will be diverted, ticket acceptance with other operators is confirmed and additional staffing resources are brought in at key station to assist our customers.

BLACK also referred to as CSL2 Black. This is when the service disruption is going to affect very large numbers of our customers or may go on for days or weeks at a time. It will trigger emergency meeting and the concern will be getting you moving on the day put providing robust plans for the following days so that our customers can plan ahead.

 

[Amlag]

What's the difference between a 'Red' and a 'Black' service? Lovely glossy from RDG but presumably not terrribly connected to reality (just putting 2 + 2 together here)?!!

Wasn't aware of that document and not surprising its a complete work of fiction but then so is RDG.

Why did the Northern Rail outfit not get a Driver Manager and/ or Guards manager to cover the traincrew turn/s as done so often and well by other TOCs during recent disruptions to services ??

 

[CyrusWuff]

That's not Northern's PIDD document, just an industry standard bunch of pledges for disruption which several TOCs have agreed to.

Northern's doesn't appear to be public although page 18 of their "Customer Information Delivery Plan 2020/2021 talks about "Do Not Travel" and has content very similar to what might be considered to be in a PIDD- https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/2022-01/Local_Delivery_Plan_2020.pdf



"Red" is normally severe disruption expected to last for several hours with alternative routes available & actively advertised. "Black" is normally a prologned suspension of a major route(s), very rarely triggered and is a significant incident which will normally be displayed nationwide on sites like NRE and could last into the next day.

Northern describe it (in the same document above) as:

Gotta love consistency across the industry! Chiltern, on the other hand, define them in their PIDD Local Plan (linked from here) as:

Red - Major service disruption, likely to substantially affect the service for more than 1 hour. Multiple delays in excess of 30 minutes and multiple cancellations. Alternative transport, ticket acceptance, on-call response and management response maybe required.
Black - Chiltern Railways cannot provide ANY service or the service is severely disrupted with delays in excess of 2 hours.

Both of which are sufficiently broad as to cover a multitude of reasons!