Fife and the Tay Cities Timetable Consultation

[cf111]

Scotrail have released this today as part of the planning for the (re)opening for stations at Cameron Bridge and Leven.

Fife and the Tay Cities Timetable Consultation

This consultation is now closed. As part of our vision to support thriving, connected, and resilient communities and destinations that are great places to live, work, and visit, we are holding a public consultation on a proposed new timetable for services between Edinburgh, Fife, and the Tay...

www.scotrail.co.uk

As part of our vision to support thriving, connected, and resilient communities and destinations that are great places to live, work, and visit, we are holding a public consultation on a proposed new timetable for services between Edinburgh, Fife, and the Tay Cities. This includes services to the new stations at Cameron Bridge and Leven.

The consultation opens on Monday, 11 September 2023, and will be available until Monday, 23 October 2023.

The reopening of the Levenmouth Rail Link will provide the area with a major boost to economic sustainability and connectivity. It will deliver opportunities for local people, unlocking access to education, culture, entertainment, and employment options, as well attracting new business and investment.

We have taken this opportunity to proposes changes to the timetable that will benefit people across Fife, based on feedback received from customers and stakeholders.

The planned timetable will be introduced in 2025 once we have completed the necessary steps required to ensure that we have enough resources to do so. When the Levenmouth Rail Link opens in late spring / early summer 2024, we will introduce one of two interim timetables that will deliver many of the benefits of the planned timetable. This phased approach will ensure that we operate a reliable train service across all of Fife when the line reopens, which is essential in making rail an attractive mode of transport, and ensuring that the new stations at Leven and Cameron Bridge are a success.

We would like to hear communities’ views on the two interim timetable options to help inform the decision on which timetable will be introduced. We are also seeking detailed feedback on the proposed final timetable for the Levenmouth Rail Link.

 

[waverley47]

Seems like the original plan of 1tph each way to Leven and one full rounder has been ditched in favour of 1tph each way to Leven, 1tph to Cowdenbeath via Dunfermline and 2tph semi-fast up the coast line.

All in all it seems sensible, given numbers from the coast through Glenrothes to Cowdenbeath were always low.

 

[Class 170101]

Seems like the original plan of 1tph each way to Leven and one full rounder has been ditched in favour of 1tph each way to Leven, 1tph to Cowdenbeath via Dunfermline

Cost saving measure

and 2tph semi-fast up the coast line.

Pretty much there today?

All in all it seems sensible, given numbers from the coast through Glenrothes to Cowdenbeath were always low.

Would have thought there would need to be links from Kirkcaldy to Dumfermline Stations. What it also means it is actually rather hard to get from Dumfermline line stations to stations further north as now you have to head south to get further north. Its actually rather difficult from say Glenrothes to get to any of Perth, Dundee or Aberdeen as there is no junction station between Glenrothes Junctions and 'Leven' Junction.

 

[Tayway]

Ideally you'd want:

2tph semi-fast to Dundee and Perth
2tph stopping via Kirkcaldy to Leven
1tph stopping via Cowdenbeath to Kirkcaldy
1tph stopping via Cowdenbeath to Markinch

This gives Leven a consistent service on the faster route to Edinburgh, and improves connections from the Circle stations both to Kirkcaldy and to stations further north.

Might not be feasible with current infrastructure however as I'm not sure whether trains can turn around at Kirkcaldy from the northbound direction.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Seems like the original plan of 1tph each way to Leven and one full rounder has been ditched in favour of 1tph each way to Leven, 1tph to Cowdenbeath via Dunfermline and 2tph semi-fast up the coast line.

All in all it seems sensible, given numbers from the coast through Glenrothes to Cowdenbeath were always low.

The planned 2025 timetable has 2tph to Leven, one via Dunfermline and one via Kirkcaldy. The proposed interim timetables have either 2tph via Dunfermline, or 1tph via Kirkcaldy. It's not explained why the interim timetables are necessary, but it could be lack of rolling stock - more dmus will become available when the Barrhead line is energised.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2023 ==

Would have thought there would need to be links from Kirkcaldy to Dumfermline Stations. What it also means it is actually rather hard to get from Dumfermline line stations to stations further north as now you have to head south to get further north. Its actually rather difficult from say Glenrothes to get to any of Perth, Dundee or Aberdeen as there is no junction station between Glenrothes Junctions and 'Leven' Junction.

Journey time from Dunfermline is only seven minutes from Inverkeithing, and the coast route is ten minutes faster (according to the timings from Inverkeithing to Leven in the interim timetable). It would depend on how good the connections are at Inverkeithing.

It is of course a nuisance if you are travelling from Cowdenbeath or Glenrothes, but the Fife Circle was, I believe, a fairly recent innovation (1989). Previously, trains terminated at Cowdenbeath with only a peak hour extension to/from Cardenden, with one early morning service starting at Markinch - making track bashing beyond Cowdenbeath very difficult!

 

[Kite159]

Ideally you'd want:

2tph semi-fast to Dundee and Perth
2tph stopping via Kirkcaldy to Leven
1tph stopping via Cowdenbeath to Kirkcaldy
1tph stopping via Cowdenbeath to Markinch

This gives Leven a consistent service on the faster route to Edinburgh, and improves connections from the Circle stations both to Kirkcaldy and to stations further north.

Might not be feasible with current infrastructure however as I'm not sure whether trains can turn around at Kirkcaldy from the northbound direction.

I would swap it round so 1tph from Leven is semifast via Kirkcaldy with a stopper from Perth being behind it.
That way it gives Leven a faster route into Edinburgh than stopping at every granny's front door.

 

[Class 170101]

Journey time from Dunfermline is only seven minutes from Inverkeithing, and the coast route is ten minutes faster (according to the timings from Inverkeithing to Leven in the interim timetable). It would depend on how good the connections are at Inverkeithing.

Except I think the Aberdeen services don't stop there (fast Haymarket to Dundee I think it was) so from Glenrothes its a change at Inverkeithing and Dundee and I think for Perth its a change at Inverkeithing, but would a ticket be valid as you would have to go back on yourself to Inverkeithing to get to either Dundee or Perth?

It is of course a nuisance if you are travelling from Cowdenbeath or Glenrothes, but the Fife Circle was, I believe, a fairly recent innovation (1989). Previously, trains terminated at Cowdenbeath with only a peak hour extension to/from Cardenden, with one early morning service starting at Markinch - making track bashing beyond Cowdenbeath very difficult!

1989 - 35 years ago now

 

[norbitonflyer]

Except I think the Aberdeen services don't stop there (fast Haymarket to Dundee I think it was) so from Glenrothes its a change at Inverkeithing and Dundee and I think for Perth its a change at Inverkeithing, but would a ticket be valid as you would have to go back on yourself to Inverkeithing to get to either Dundee or Perth?

You're not actually retracing your steps though. An intersting question if you timetable A is used and you want to go from Leven to Dundee or points north, as you would have to go via Dunfermline to Inverkeithing and then head north - passing through Thornton Junction twice.

 

[GLC]

It's not explained why the interim timetables are necessary, but it could be lack of rolling stock - more dmus will become available when the Barrhead line is energised.

Barrhead is switching to electrics in the December 2023 timetable so there should be more DMUs by the time Leven opens. I also thought the (original) plan for Leven was to simply extend the Fife circle services, and that no (or little) extra rolling stock would be required

 

[snowball]

It's not explained why the interim timetables are necessary, but it could be lack of rolling stock - more dmus will become available when the Barrhead line is energised.

It does say

The interim timetable will be in place while we complete the steps required to have sufficient resources to operate the Planned Timetable across Fife and Tay Cities with the reliability our customers need and deserve.

so probably mainly rolling stock. Maybe also driver training and moving drivers around?

Won't Barrhead only free up the equivalent of one full-time DMU? I think something of that order has been suggested on the Barrhead/EK thread.

 

[norbitonflyer]

. I also thought the (original) plan for Leven was to simply extend the Fife circle services, and that no (or little) extra rolling stock would be required

Two problems with that
- you would need more stock as it takes time to run from Thornton Junction to Leven and back.
- the Fife Circle has not run as a complete circle for some years - trains via Dunfermline terminate at Glenrothes, and the only services via the coast run to Perth or Dundee.

 

[jamieintercity]

What's the plan for the arbroath services in 2025. Will they be going back to Edinburgh or continue to shuttle every hour to dundee?

 

[snookertam]

You're not actually retracing your steps though. An intersting question if you timetable A is used and you want to go from Leven to Dundee or points north, as you would have to go via Dunfermline to Inverkeithing and then head north - passing through Thornton Junction twice.

Timetable A is almost certain to be used, as it results in less additional resource having to be found.

Timetable B would of course be the logical interim timetable, but given that both A and B have been published suggests the groundwork is being laid for timetable A.

 

[Tayway]

What's the plan for the arbroath services in 2025. Will they be going back to Edinburgh or continue to shuttle every hour to dundee?

The December 2023 timetable seems to have the shuttle decrease to every two hours, with the Angus Coast stops put in the Glasgow to Aberdeen in the gaps. I'd imagine that would be the plan at the moment as the consultation didn't specify anything different with regards to re-extending the Edinburgh semi-fasts (although presumably the paths would match up again).

 

[Class83]

Thinking about this the below pattern would offer at least 2tph from Edinburgh to all stations, keep to 5tph for efficiency of units and paths across the Forth Bridge, and preserve northbound connections for both Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline, the only thing it doesn't offer is direct Kirkcaldy-Dunfermline, though not sure how time competitive with buses that is.

1tph Leven via Dunfermline
1tph Leven via Kirkcaldy
1tph Dundee via Dunfermline
1tph Perth via Kirkcaldy
1tph Dundee via Kirkcaldy (semi-fast, if units are very tight this could just be reintroducing Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy stops on the Aberdeen train)

 

[Tayway]

Thinking about this the below pattern would offer at least 2tph from Edinburgh to all stations, keep to 5tph for efficiency of units and paths across the Forth Bridge, and preserve northbound connections for both Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline, the only thing it doesn't offer is direct Kirkcaldy-Dunfermline, though not sure how time competitive with buses that is.

1tph Leven via Dunfermline
1tph Leven via Kirkcaldy
1tph Dundee via Dunfermline
1tph Perth via Kirkcaldy
1tph Dundee via Kirkcaldy (semi-fast, if units are very tight this could just be reintroducing Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy stops on the Aberdeen train)

Dundee to Edinburgh via Dunfermline would be nice from a connectivity point of view, but it would take nearly two hours compared to the 1hr10m of the Aberdeen service. All the North Fife stations already have 2tph to Edinburgh, so you'd be best just turning it at Markinch.

 

[InOban]

I think it says in the document that passenger demand between dunfermline and Kirkcaldy was minimal.

 

[Class83]

Dundee to Edinburgh via Dunfermline would be nice from a connectivity point of view, but it would take nearly two hours compared to the 1hr10m of the Aberdeen service. All the North Fife stations already have 2tph to Edinburgh, so you'd be best just turning it at Markinch.

It's not really a service for Edinburgh to Dundee passengers (they'd presumably use the intercity or semifast) it's for passengers from Edinburgh to stations between Rosyth and Glenrothes, then separately those stations to points north. I would imagine very few passengers (who don't post on here) would ever use it in it's entirety.

 

[Tayway]

I think it says in the document that passenger demand between dunfermline and Kirkcaldy was minimal.

Unsurprising really, both towns are similar in size so have similar amenities. The council offices are in Glenrothes, and most major employers like Amazon are the wrong side of Dunfermline to make the train an attractive prospect.

It's not really a service for Edinburgh to Dundee passengers (they'd presumably use the intercity or semifast) it's for passengers from Edinburgh to stations between Rosyth and Glenrothes, then separately those stations to points north. I would imagine very few passengers (who don't post on here) would ever use it in it's entirety

Indeed, I was merely pointing out that you'd be wasting two units by going out to Dundee and back each hour when you could as easily turn such a service at Markinch and have the small number of through passengers change. North Fife is pretty sparsely populated, and the primary destinations are Dundee and Edinburgh, not the towns on the Fife Circle.