How can Paddington - Penzance services be sped up

[HamworthyGoods]

Totally OT but why does Castle Cary get a FO stop each way? (0904 down, return at 1602)

Those stops and the equivalent on Saturdays are tied in with this, which is a great revenue earner for GWR:

Great Garden Escape

Our First Class garden escape from London Paddington to The Newt in Somerset allows you to experience the estate in a day, via tours, tastings, lunch and more.

thenewtinsomerset.com

 

[stuu]

Its a balancing act between providing a decent service and trying to please everyone. For example the Avanti London to Glasgow trains don't stop south of Warrington, despite the fact by stopping at several places more revenue could be generated. They rightly realise that providing a decent service to Scotland is more important, and that those towns further south can be served by local trains perfectly adequately. If the Exeter stoppers could be made to hourly, then absolutely Taunton and Tivy should be served only by that in my view.

Tiverton does get more stops than it deserves for the number of passengers, but Taunton gets about two-thirds the number of passengers that Plymouth does, and those are almost all going on long distance trains. I don't see any reason to add half an hour to journeys from one area just so that people can get to Plymouth 3 minutes quicker. Makes no sense

 

[30907]

Those stops and the equivalent on Saturdays are tied in with this, which is a great revenue earner for GWR:

Great Garden Escape

Our First Class garden escape from London Paddington to The Newt in Somerset allows you to experience the estate in a day, via tours, tastings, lunch and more.

thenewtinsomerset.com

Thanks. I guessesd it must be a day-trip of some sort but couldn't think what - I didn't think Glastonbury and Wells would quite cut it

Back on topic, memory says that at one stage some London trains skipped Camborne - and I am old enough to remember changing at Bodmin Rd (sic) for Newquay around 1970.

 

[YourMum666]

Couldn’t they just redu

Leaving out Plymouth would be a bold commercial move!

i forgot to include Plymouth

 

[Bartsimho]

Another issue is the lack of passing loops in Cornwall. It's 2 track all the way with third platforms only where there are branch lines so they need to be occupied by the branch line train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another issue is the lack of passing loops in Cornwall. It's 2 track all the way with third platforms only where there are branch lines so they need to be occupied by the branch line train.

To be fair it's possible to loop a Penzance train at Par, the branch platform there is also connected to the mainline, and indeed has a sign to tell drivers which doors to release if they're Penzance bound.

I don't however think this is a sensible idea either way

 

[Bartsimho]

To be fair it's possible to loop a Penzance train at Par, the branch platform there is also connected to the mainline, and indeed has a sign to tell drivers which doors to release if they're Penzance bound.

I don't however think this is a sensible idea either way

Yeah you want to stop at Liskeard, Bodmin Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth/Cambourne, St Erth and Penzance. And that maybe expand to Lostwithiel as there was initial funding for reinstating the line to Fowey as far as the works and connect to a ferry into the town. Basically the best way to speed the service up is either battery trains or electrification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah you want to stop at Liskeard, Bodmin Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth/Cambourne, St Erth and Penzance. And that maybe expand to Lostwithiel as there was initial funding for reinstating the line to Fowey as far as the works and connect to a ferry into the town. Basically the best way to speed the service up is either battery trains or electrification.

One side of me thinks that reducing 5 hours to 4h50 is so inconsequential on a journey that's too long for daytripping that investment would be better directed at making the trains more suitable for longer journeys with more comfortable seats, more tables, a proper buffet if not a DB style bistro, a dedicated family coach like the Swiss have with an all-table layout and a play area, and extensive provision for the sort of luggage people want to carry on those trains e.g. surfboards and bicycles. That is, make the longer journey more useful, comfortable and attractive rather than spending a fortune shortening it by a few inconsequential minutes.

The rest of GW's services are a bit "long outersuburban" in nature, but that one (and to an extent Swansea) is true InterCity and could really do with being thought of differently from a couple of hours to Bath or Bristol.

 

[Bartsimho]

One side of me thinks that reducing 5 hours to 4h50 is so inconsequential on a journey that's too long for daytripping that investment would be better directed at making the trains more suitable for longer journeys with more comfortable seats, more tables, a proper buffet if not a DB style bistro, a dedicated family coach like the Swiss have with an all-table layout and a play area, and extensive provision for the sort of luggage people want to carry on those trains e.g. surfboards and bicycles. That is, make the longer journey more useful, comfortable and attractive rather than spending a fortune shortening it by a few inconsequential minutes.

The rest of GW's services are a bit "long outersuburban" in nature, but that one (and to an extent Swansea) is true InterCity and could really do with being thought of differently from a couple of hours to Bath or Bristol.

With the electrification though I wouldn't be surprised to see Cornwall Council supporting it to reduce journey times as they've exhausted supporting road reconstruction now

 

[Trainbike46]

One side of me thinks that reducing 5 hours to 4h50 is so inconsequential on a journey that's too long for daytripping that investment would be better directed at making the trains more suitable for longer journeys with more comfortable seats, more tables, a proper buffet if not a DB style bistro, a dedicated family coach like the Swiss have with an all-table layout and a play area, and extensive provision for the sort of luggage people want to carry on those trains e.g. surfboards and bicycles. That is, make the longer journey more useful, comfortable and attractive rather than spending a fortune shortening it by a few inconsequential minutes.

The rest of GW's services are a bit "long outersuburban" in nature, but that one (and to an extent Swansea) is true InterCity and could really do with being thought of differently from a couple of hours to Bath or Bristol.

On the one hand I see your point, and I agree improvements to rolling stock, including adding a carriage with level boarding and adding a buffet would make sense.

On the other hand, the main realistic speed increase proposal I've seen here is (partial) electrification, which wouldn't just improve journey times, but also reduce emissions (both greenhouse gases and NOx/particulates), reduce operating costs, etc.

On top of that, local journeys may benefit more from the journey time reductions, as they'd be bigger in percentage terms

 

[70014IronDuke]

-You could reduce the number of stops along the whole route. Since we're in the speculative section, you could reduce it drastically to call Penzance - Truro - Plymouth - Exeter - Reading - London. However, this removes some useful interchange stations, such as St Erth, Par, Liskeard and Newton Abbot. Add those in and the only stops you are omitting are Camborne, Redruth, St Austell, Totnes and Taunton. For the Cornwall stations at least this removes the ability to maintain a clockface timetable. I would actually quite like to see an express of this kind but again some of the intermittent stops are useful

I think you are trying to avoid the false premise made by the OP here.

That false premise is that this route is London - Penzance. It isn't, not in the sense that eg Euston to Glasgow or KX to Edinburgh is a route.

This route is Paddington to Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall stations.

GWR does not want an express thundering through stations in Cornwall, not at 125 mph, not even at 70 mph because Penzance is not a terminus in the 'classical' sense, ie in a big city like Glasgow. Penzance is just the end of a line through Cornwall. It isn't and will never be a large traffic generator because it is not a big city. It is Cornwall stations that are the traffic generators - and damned lucky (considering the many places of some size that lack direct services to London) they are too.

 

[gc4946]

Non-stop Paddington-Plymouth
then Liskeard, Par, Truro (for branch line connections)
then all stations to Penzance

 

[devon_belle]

Non-stop Paddington-Plymouth

Removing the stop at Exeter would be detrimental to the city itself as well as the whole Devon Metro area.

 

[gc4946]

Non-stop Paddington-Plymouth
then Liskeard, Par, Truro (for branch line connections)
then all stations to Penzance

Removing the stop at Exeter would be detrimental to the city itself as well as the whole Devon Metro area.

I'd allow one stop at Exeter and pick-up only westwards/set down only eastwards at Reading.

 

[uglymonkey]

RIP up the track after Exeter transfer to nat express coach to Penzance, would that be quicker? (In jest)

 

[devon_belle]

I'd allow one stop at Exeter and pick-up only westwards/set down only eastwards at Reading.

I could agree with this, although probably only necessary for one or two 'Penzance express' per day. Problem is it'll get filled up with Exeter passengers wanting the quickest ride!

 

[yorksrob]

One side of me thinks that reducing 5 hours to 4h50 is so inconsequential on a journey that's too long for daytripping that investment would be better directed at making the trains more suitable for longer journeys with more comfortable seats, more tables, a proper buffet if not a DB style bistro, a dedicated family coach like the Swiss have with an all-table layout and a play area, and extensive provision for the sort of luggage people want to carry on those trains e.g. surfboards and bicycles. That is, make the longer journey more useful, comfortable and attractive rather than spending a fortune shortening it by a few inconsequential minutes.

The rest of GW's services are a bit "long outersuburban" in nature, but that one (and to an extent Swansea) is true InterCity and could really do with being thought of differently from a couple of hours to Bath or Bristol.

Indeed. You'd be better off spending the money on making the train comfortable and having a buffet car for beer and strong coffee.

 

[brad465]

Surely bedwyn to pewsey can be upgraded to 125mph as its relatively straight?

Do you mean Pewsey to Westbury, which is both relatively straight and a lot straighter that Bedwyn to Pewsey, the 'curviest' part of the line outside Devon and Cornwall?

The only ways I can see higher speeds being obtained is via electrification of the whole route at least as far as Plymouth, both enabling quicker acceleration and allowing higher speeds on straighter sections where the limiting factor is being able to get up to higher speeds quick enough on current capabilities. I seem to recall suggestions a while back that tilting stock was being considered for Devon and Cornwall, but we seem to be moving on from that technology.

 

[YourMum666]

Do you mean Pewsey to Westbury, which is both relatively straight and a lot straighter that Bedwyn to Pewsey, the 'curviest' part of the line outside Devon and Cornwall?

The only ways I can see higher speeds being obtained is via electrification of the whole route at least as far as Plymouth, both enabling quicker acceleration and allowing higher speeds on straighter sections where the limiting factor is being able to get up to higher speeds quick enough on current capabilities. I seem to recall suggestions a while back that tilting stock was being considered for Devon and Cornwall, but we seem to be moving on from that technology.

Yes I did sorry, and how would electrification to Plymouth work, especially around the Exeter - Newton abbot area and the dawlish sea wall

 

[alf]

I was once told by 2 BR civil engineers that there was a developed plan to straighten the Berks & Hants route from just after Bedwyn going west to a couple of miles after crossing the Kennet & Avon canal. It would use part of the still unused M&SWR junction track bed going towards Marlborough & I thought it was a great idea.

From looking at the map the 120 mph diversion travels through fields that were made oddly shaped because of the canal & GWR & M&SWR & of little value.
It destroys no houses or farm property apart from the old Savernake high level station which is a bungalow & it replaces a stretch of 60mph running with 120 mph running.
I guess it would save 2 minutes for 20 or more trains daily, including those to & from Penzance.

Does the scheme still exist ? Anyone know ?
It seems a winner.

 

[Grumpy]

RIP up the track after Exeter transfer to nat express coach to Penzance, would that be quicker? (In jest)

In the past I have wondered about some Cornish coach connections from Exeter. For example Newquay takes approx. 3 hours by train but you can do it by road in half the time. Tiverton Parkway might be an alternative.

Not that I'm suggesting ripping up any track

 

[irish_rail]

Tiverton does get more stops than it deserves for the number of passengers, but Taunton gets about two-thirds the number of passengers that Plymouth does, and those are almost all going on long distance trains. I don't see any reason to add half an hour to journeys from one area just so that people can get to Plymouth 3 minutes quicker. Makes no sense

Its not 3 minutes quicker. The current 1004 does London to Plymouth in 2hr 59 (in my experince) by not calling at tiverton and Taunton. So thats approaching 15 minutes quicker.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The problem of reducing dwell times at stations is believing all passengers are perfect. They will be stood in the right place when the train arrives,put their luggage in without a struggle and not be waved off by their loved ones standing inside the yellow line.

 

[The Planner]

Its not 3 minutes quicker. The current 1004 does London to Plymouth in 2hr 59 (in my experince) by not calling at tiverton and Taunton. So thats approaching 15 minutes quicker.

What are you comparing it against? There is no way two stops cost 15 minutes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What are you comparing it against? There is no way two stops cost 15 minutes.

Quite correct, the 10.04 which doesn’t call Taunton or Tivvy is booked 2hr 59 to Plymouth, the 08.03 which does call at Taunton and Tivvy is booked 3hr 7 so 8 minutes longer or 4 minutes a call.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2023 ==

Its not 3 minutes quicker. The current 1004 does London to Plymouth in 2hr 59 (in my experince) by not calling at tiverton and Taunton. So thats approaching 15 minutes quicker.

You’ve over egged the saving of not calling at Tivvy and Taunton by near 100%!!

 

[PTR 444]

In a hypothetical world, the ideal solution would be to build a new tunnelled alignment to high speed standards between Exeter and Newton Abbott.

But as pointed out on so many threads, it’ll never happen in a million years.

 

[Meerkat]

Build new, electric, high(ish) speed routes Newton Abbot-Totnes and Totnes-Plympton.
Cant imagine anything expensive will be viable West of Plymouth.
Though I am curious why the single track section over the Royal Albert Bridge is so long (cheap overbridge replacement??) and how much time and performance improvement could come from shortening it to just be over the big bridge.
And prioritise electrifying to Westbury, mainly for the stone trains but also speeding up the WoE passengers.
I assume a cut off behind Crofton pumping station would only save a minute or two - I heard it was very slow round that corner?

 

[YourMum666]

Build new, electric, high(ish) speed routes Newton Abbot-Totnes and Totnes-Plympton.
Cant imagine anything expensive will be viable West of Plymouth.
Though I am curious why the single track section over the Royal Albert Bridge is so long (cheap overbridge replacement??) and how much time and performance improvement could come from shortening it to just be over the big bridge.
And prioritise electrifying to Westbury, mainly for the stone trains but also speeding up the WoE passengers.
I assume a cut off behind Crofton pumping station would only save a minute or two - I heard it was very slow round that corner?

I would prioritise wiring both ways to Exeter. And I would run Penzance services via Swindon, I wonder how much time that would save ?

 

[43096]

I would prioritise wiring both ways to Exeter. And I would run Penzance services via Swindon, I wonder how much time that would save ?

Running via Swindon (and Bristol) costs about 30mins. So it takes longer going that way than the B&H.

 

[JonathanH]

And I would run Penzance services via Swindon, I wonder how much time that would save ?

Where are they going after Swindon? Surely if it saved time they would already go that way?