Could a Monthly Subscription ticket work in the UK?

[Starmill]

Cornwall spend big bucks in subsidy because they received a huge , in bus industry terms, grant from Central Government to do it. To be fair, I don't think MK has, so has no opportunity to spend 'decent money' even if they wanted to. Funding their statutory responsibilities will see to that.

They have received the latest rounds yes but before that they were still subsidising services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

The £2 ticket involved a lot of extra cash being pumped into busses

While this is in part the case now it's a bit of an illusion. The money from November onwards is almost entirely replacing the Covid transitional support, and as it's much less generous either services will have to be cut again or the £2.50 capped rate will have to rise in breach of the promise not to do so.

The funds agreed by the German coalition are also secure further into the future than the fare cap grant. Labour haven't promised to keep funding going maintain the £2.50 cap and halt any further reduction in English bus services.

 

[ChrisC]

The £2 bus fare has been very good for people like me who live in villages around 10 miles out from a large town or city. To be able to do a return journey into town for £4 instead of having to buy a £7.90 day ticket has been great. If you have to a return journey involving using two buses it’s a different matter as £8 return for often a short journey is not such good value and a day ticket could be cheaper, although not if it involves different companies. We are all led to believe the £2 fare is a good thing but it doesn’t really compare to the £1.75 fare in London where numerous buses can be used as long as the journey is begun within an hour.

The whole purpose of the £2 fare ought to be to get people out of their cars on to public transport for environmental reasons. The bus route I use passes through a number of very affluent villages and it‘s here where getting people out of their cars to use public transport is most difficult. A large proportion of the people who live in the village where I live are fairly wealthy retired people who will have bus passes but they never use the hourly bus. Whenever I use the bus I’m usually the only one waiting at the bus stop. Perhaps if we actually had a few buses after 6pm some of the younger people might use them to go into town in the evening.

 

[gc4946]

Maybe something along the lines of a English National Transport Card valid weekly, monthly, quarterly and annually, plus flexi versions, eg 4 days in 8?
Available to everybody aged 18-60, half fare on rail after 09.30 weekdays and all day weekends and bank holidays, bus fares capped at £2 per journey or £5 per day.
Senior citizens and disabled persons would have the bus element free.

 

[RT4038]

We are all led to believe the £2 fare is a good thing but it doesn’t really compare to the £1.75 fare in London where numerous buses can be used as long as the journey is begun within an hour.

So are you saying the £2 fare is not a good thing? Would you prefer it was not introduced at all? It compares very well with the London fare - I can go 20 miles in an hour for £2 (on some routes much further) - try that in most of London. It is not the same scheme as London, but it is roughly comparable.

The whole purpose of the £2 fare ought to be to get people out of their cars on to public transport for environmental reasons.

I don't think this was the whole purpose, because it is simply not going to do that. Handing people £2 every time they catch a bus won't make much dent into getting people out of their cars and travelling by bus in your (and my) area. I believe the purpose was double edged - encourage people who had stopped travelling by bus to travel (or travel more often) again / those who have not been riding but are walking/getting lifts etc, and secondly to provide some cost of living relief to the poorer section of the community, who are the main bus riders, with something that could be used by anyone but in practice is focused on that section of the community who need it most. Outside of the main urban areas bus fares have become very expensive. Unlike rail fare cuts, which would benefit many, many of those able to pay the current fares (note keyboard warriors - many, not everybody!!!)

Perhaps if we actually had a few buses after 6pm some of the younger people might use them to go into town in the evening.

Perhaps when it is realised what the cost of providing such buses is, versus the number of young people really likely to be conveyed, then it is fairly obvious why they are not provided.

 

[deltic]

Presently in Germany and the key point being missed is one of capacity. Six, eight and more coach trains are common on interurban services here which is virtually unknown in the UK with the exception of the former Southern region.

 

[Trainlog]

The £2 bus fare has been very good for people like me who live in villages around 10 miles out from a large town or city. To be able to do a return journey into town for £4 instead of having to buy a £7.90 day ticket has been great. If you have to a return journey involving using two buses it’s a different matter as £8 return for often a short journey is not such good value and a day ticket could be cheaper, although not if it involves different companies. We are all led to believe the £2 fare is a good thing but it doesn’t really compare to the £1.75 fare in London where numerous buses can be used as long as the journey is begun within an hour.

The whole purpose of the £2 fare ought to be to get people out of their cars on to public transport for environmental reasons. The bus route I use passes through a number of very affluent villages and it‘s here where getting people out of their cars to use public transport is most difficult. A large proportion of the people who live in the village where I live are fairly wealthy retired people who will have bus passes but they never use the hourly bus. Whenever I use the bus I’m usually the only one waiting at the bus stop. Perhaps if we actually had a few buses after 6pm some of the younger people might use them to go into town in the evening.

I reckon that in places where they have cut evening buses past 6 they should at least try and bring in night buses up to 11pm-to potentially middnight on Fridays and Saturdays. Can understand the rest of the week there might not be a strong amount of demand for it, but it would be good to have the bus back in the evening as a choice rather than high taxi fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How so? You frequently espouse the principle of local democracy and have frequently stated that local authorities should have more freedom to raise revenue and spend on what their elected representatives think their voters want.

But a subscription scheme such as that in Germany would be a national product. Thus it would be national subsidy, and thus national taxation. And if you're going to tax someone in rural Yorkshire who has no useful public transport to subsidise someone getting cheap fares on the Tube, then that's grossly unfair.

Yes, you could argue the same of rail subsidy, or of the £2 scheme, but this would be more obvious and thus more galling.

The local approach would be that Councils could do it if they wanted. Which they could now. But none do, nor have they ever done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

Presently in Germany and the key point being missed is one of capacity. Six, eight and more coach trains are common on interurban services here which is virtually unknown in the UK with the exception of the former Southern region.

Frequencies in Germany are typically about half the comparable UK ones, though. Two hourly (0.5tph) is a very common regional frequency.

 

[RT4038]

The local approach would be that Councils could do it if they wanted. Which they could now. But none do, nor have they ever done.

Presumably local democracy at work then?

Not sure what relevance a ticket subscription scheme has to do with buses in rural Cornwall versus the local democratic decision of Milton Keynes Council to fund DRT rather than fixed routes though (as in your post #48) ?

 

[ChrisC]

So are you saying the £2 fare is not a good thing? Would you prefer it was not introduced at all? It compares very well with the London fare - I can go 20 miles in an hour for £2 (on some routes much further) - try that in most of London. It is not the same scheme as London, but it is roughly comparable.

I didn’t word that bit very well. I most certainly do think that the £2 fare is a good thing. Outside of large cities you can indeed travel long distances in one hour for just £2, but is that really what the £2 fare should be for. I agree that you could never travel that distance within London. However, in London, you can travel on more than one bus within the hour for just £1.75 without having to keep paying another fare for each subsequent leg of the journey. Many journeys of just a few miles require a change of bus and outside London can result in total fares of much more than £2 for a single journey.

 

[RT4038]

I didn’t word that bit very well. I most certainly do think that the £2 fare is a good thing. Outside of large cities you can indeed travel long distances in one hour for just £2, but is that really what the £2 fare should be for. I agree that you could never travel that distance within London. However, in London, you can travel on more than one bus within the hour for just £1.75 without having to keep paying another fare for each subsequent leg of the journey. Many journeys of just a few miles require a change of bus and outside London can result in total fares of much more than £2 for a single journey.

I understand what you are saying, but you win some and lose some. In the more rural areas, where fares are much higher in the first place (due to lower densities of population etc) the £2 fare has been a considerable reduction in fares, even for relatively short distances (in my area, a £6 fare for a 20 minute ride is not that unusual). In some urban areas (West Midlands for instance), the £2 fare showed only a small reduction, if at all.

Outside of London, single bus fares are rarely available for interchange between routes. The scheme had to be simple and the administration not involve compensation between operators, bearing in mind that Govt. do not control the operators or their fares (there was no legal power to compel operators into the scheme in any practicable timeframe, so the scheme had to be acceptable to them). A free transfer for £2 between two buses within the same town seems quite reasonable, but after a 15 mile journey considerably less so. That would have been much more complex and frankly delayed the scheme introduction to the extent it may never have happened.

 

[mike57]

Another completely 'off the wall idea'...

Dont know if it could work but here goes...

Any scheme of this nature is going to require a subsidy.

Every adult is entitled to a card loaded with lets say £100 (actual amount can be subject of debate, UK adult population is around 45m I thinK) of 'subsidy' annually to be used towards public transport and only public transport. It can be used to discount fares by a further lets say 50% until its used up. Card is transferable so if Grandma hardly goes out she can give the card to Grandson to help with his travel costs to and from Uni for example. Better off people may use it to upgrade from standard to first class, those struggling will use it to help with day to day to and from work costs. To avoid sudden peaks in use by issuing all cards at the same time spread them through out the year, maybe your birthday for example. People would have to apply, and be on the electoral register or be a tax payer to qualify.

Advantage is it might encourage people who otherwise wouldnt consider using public transport to try it, the 'freeby' element.

As with any scheme there may be abuses, but if the total 'subsidy' issued is a fixed amount, then that caps the amount the government are on the hook for. When you pay with 'subsidy' the operator, private or otherwise gets that money direct from central government.

No doubt there would a load of problems, but given the disjointed nature of UK public transport it could work, any German style card would require major changes to the public transport provision and structure, and whilst the changes might be a good idea I cant see them happening.

 

[yorksrob]

Another completely 'off the wall idea'...

Dont know if it could work but here goes...

Any scheme of this nature is going to require a subsidy.

Every adult is entitled to a card loaded with lets say £100 (actual amount can be subject of debate, UK adult population is around 45m I thinK) of 'subsidy' annually to be used towards public transport and only public transport. It can be used to discount fares by a further lets say 50% until its used up. Card is transferable so if Grandma hardly goes out she can give the card to Grandson to help with his travel costs to and from Uni for example. Better off people may use it to upgrade from standard to first class, those struggling will use it to help with day to day to and from work costs. To avoid sudden peaks in use by issuing all cards at the same time spread them through out the year, maybe your birthday for example. People would have to apply, and be on the electoral register or be a tax payer to qualify.

Advantage is it might encourage people who otherwise wouldnt consider using public transport to try it, the 'freeby' element.

As with any scheme there may be abuses, but if the total 'subsidy' issued is a fixed amount, then that caps the amount the government are on the hook for. When you pay with 'subsidy' the operator, private or otherwise gets that money direct from central government.

No doubt there would a load of problems, but given the disjointed nature of UK public transport it could work, any German style card would require major changes to the public transport provision and structure, and whilst the changes might be a good idea I cant see them happening.

It's an interesting idea, but fundamentally it would be a lot of admin which would only just about get you one return to London.

 

[zwk500]

Every adult is entitled to a card loaded with lets say £100 (actual amount can be subject of debate, UK adult population is around 45m I thinK) of 'subsidy' annually to be used towards public transport and only public transport.

It's certainly possible - it's the same basic idea as book tokens. But given the extremely fractured nature of UK public transport issues of revenue and cost allocation may well be too expensive to be worth overcoming.
There would also be concerns about the inflationary effect of giving every everybody £100 without being able to give any certainty that they would use the opportunity to reinvest seriously in the economy (e.g. use the money towards commuting fares and then out the other £100 in the bank, or use it to make one trip to see the kids at uni for a weekend.).
If you want to make train travel more accessible I think expansion of the existing railcards system would be the better way to go than an annual windfall.

 

[mike57]

get you one return to London.

From our neck of the woods, yes, but equally could be quite a bit of local travel

But given the extremely fractured nature of UK public transport issues of revenue and cost allocation may well be too expensive to be worth overcoming.

I saw it being more like a debit card payment, operators sign up, and the money is transfered direct, rather than a central allocation.

giving every everybody £100

£100 was a nominal amount, I am not sure what level would be appropriate, or how much discount could be applied to each journey.

 

[zwk500]

From our neck of the woods, yes, but equally could be quite a bit of local travel

Although could equally amount to simply.giving people £x off their season ticket.

I saw it being more like a debit card payment, operators sign up, and the money is transfered direct, rather than a central allocation.

I don't know the ins and outs of government finance, but I'd be very surprised if they were prepared to put up an account with £XXm ready for immediate transaction, rather than it being on credit and redistributed later.

£100 was a nominal amount, I am not sure what level would be appropriate, or how much discount could be applied to each journey.

The exact amount isn't really relevant, the point remains that there is an inflationary effect of simply giving free money and therefore you would want to be reasonably sure that this money is fulfilling its intended purpose. That means some level of checking and administration to ensure its only being spent of authorised things (would you allow a coffee from the station cafe), and that people are doing things at the end of their journeys that add to the economic activity that they wouldn't have done otherwise.

An expansion of the railcards offering would be a far more efficient way of expanding affordable rail access.

 

[mike57]

An expansion of the railcards

How are rail cards financed, I have and old g.... sorry senior railcard. It costs me about £27 a year as I paid 3 years up front, last week I spent £150 on rail fares, which would have been well over £200 without the railcard, the year before covid annual spend was well over £4K, as I was travelling south and/or NW for the day once a week for some months, do operators just accept a lower payment, or are there any reimbursements. And what happens to my original payment for it?

 

[yorksrob]

How are rail cards financed, I have and old g.... sorry senior railcard. It costs me about £27 a year as I paid 3 years up front, last week I spent £150 on rail fares, which would have been well over £200 without the railcard, the year before covid annual spend was well over £4K, as I was travelling south and/or NW for the day once a week for some months, do operators just accept a lower payment, or are there any reimbursements. And what happens to my original payment for it?

The point is, a lot of people wouldn't have bothered travelling if they only had the £200+ railfares.

 

[Starmill]

How are rail cards financed, I have and old g.... sorry senior railcard. It costs me about £27 a year as I paid 3 years up front, last week I spent £150 on rail fares, which would have been well over £200 without the railcard, the year before covid annual spend was well over £4K, as I was travelling south and/or NW for the day once a week for some months, do operators just accept a lower payment, or are there any reimbursements. And what happens to my original payment for it?

The railcard sales fees are applied by RDG as a discount on the membership fees paid by TOCs.

 

[aavm]

How about a national daily travel card.
Valid on all buses trains tubes trams ferry, etc
Split by time (peak/off peak,) and service (local/regional/intercity)
Off peak local £5
Off peak regional £10
Off peak intercity £20
So colliers wood (tube, train, train, train, bus) to storrington would be £10 return.
Off peak could be after 900 on weekdays for local and regional cards, more complex for intercity
Off peak card is free for bus pass holders

 

[mike57]

(local/regional/intercity)

I think the issue would be in clearly identifying which category a service falls into, particularly outside London. A good example of this would be TPE North services. I could just see it being a recipe for further arguments between passengers and staff, "Well it said Local on the departure board" "Yes but it became an Inter City at York", thinking of Liverpool - Newcastle services that call at local stops between Manchester and Huddersfield.

I am not saying this problem would kill the idea off, but I don't know how you would solve it in a way which would be simple.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think it is at all practical to seperate UK trains into neat categories, and in any case it is likely counterproductive.

 

[gc4946]

Until contactless is rolled out to all stations nationwide, it would be difficult to apportion revenue between operators.
There could be daily and weekly caps on public transport usage.
A maximum fare would have to be set if one fails to tap in or out, £5 on buses and trams, £100 on trains (reduced to £50 if payment within 21 days)
A monthly nationwide off-peak only subscription would see fares capped about £120 per month using a bus or tram only pass, £250 per month bus, tram and rail.
Subscriptions valid for peak hour use before 09.30 Mons-Fris would be £120 per month for a bus and tram only pass and £500 per month bus, tram and rail.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Various people have commented that any ticket deals which attracted lots of extra passengers could overwhelm services in areas which are too crowded already.

So perhaps the key to getting such an idea on the go in this country - if it's accepted that getting more people using public transport is a good thing in various ways, and hence deserves financial backing "from the public purse" - is to start with transport which can be scaled up much more quickly ... ie buses first, and trains only later? A significant national roll-out of more, and more frequent, bus routes, with a cheap - or free for people on the electoral register? - pass usable anywhere in the country, might not only help to switch the mood around public transport but might also make it easier to put much greater restrictions on private car use in urban areas.

The mood can certainly change quickly. I remember "Fare's Fair" in London, when Ken Livingstone more or less halved the bus and tube fares (before legal action by a Tory local council scuppered it). The mood on buses and tubes that day was like nothing I've ever experienced before [maybe VE-Day was like it in London in the '40s!?!] - all the staff and passengers were smiling, people were talking to one another, and even asking ticket collectors at tube stations whether they could keep their ticket as a memento...

 

[HSTEd]

is to start with transport which can be scaled up much more quickly ... ie buses first, and trains only later? A significant national roll-out of more, and more frequent, bus routes, with a cheap - or free for people on the electoral register? - pass usable anywhere in the country, might not only help to switch the mood around public transport but might also make it easier to put much greater restrictions on private car use in urban areas.

Given today's economic issues, are bus systems capable of rapid scaling?

The sector is already crippled by riisng costs and massive labour shortages.
Attempting to expand bus service significantly is going to take a few years of training up new staff, if it is possible at all. At the end of the day a bus driving post is not a particularly attractive position at the best of times.

 

[yorksrob]

Various people have commented that any ticket deals which attracted lots of extra passengers could overwhelm services in areas which are too crowded already.

So perhaps the key to getting such an idea on the go in this country - if it's accepted that getting more people using public transport is a good thing in various ways, and hence deserves financial backing "from the public purse" - is to start with transport which can be scaled up much more quickly ... ie buses first, and trains only later? A significant national roll-out of more, and more frequent, bus routes, with a cheap - or free for people on the electoral register? - pass usable anywhere in the country, might not only help to switch the mood around public transport but might also make it easier to put much greater restrictions on private car use in urban areas.

The mood can certainly change quickly. I remember "Fare's Fair" in London, when Ken Livingstone more or less halved the bus and tube fares (before legal action by a Tory local council scuppered it). The mood on buses and tubes that day was like nothing I've ever experienced before [maybe VE-Day was like it in London in the '40s!?!] - all the staff and passengers were smiling, people were talking to one another, and even asking ticket collectors at tube stations whether they could keep their ticket as a memento...

Er, they've already given bus passengers a big sweetener with the £2 scheme. It's time to do something about train fares.

 

[mike57]

Given today's economic issues, are bus systems capable of rapid scaling?

I would expand that to say any public transport in the UK.

Infrastructure improvements take far too long to deliver, and the real cost of delivery has risen over the last 50 years to the point where schemes are just not going to find funding.

Any scheme, travel card etc. is going to have to find a way of not overloading the existing system. Where trains or buses are already fully loaded there is no point in trying to encourage more useage.

I think that before any sort of card is introduced the whole fares system needs an overhaul. In the current climate it would have to be revenue neutral. But given that 3rd party websites can offer cheaper fares using split tickets, why cant the fare system be revised to deliver those fares to everyone.

I would get down to 3 simple fare categories for most journeys, Anytime, Offpeak, Advance, no TOC specific journeys, the Advance category will cover those fares. If we keep advance and offpeak returns then they are twice the price of a single. The fare offered in a category (Anytime, Offpeak, Advance) will always be the best fare available between the two points with no savings available by splitting tickets.

Having sorted out the fares structure the next step is to try and integrate the various modes of public transport. If you want to get more people on public transport then mixed mode journeys have to be integrated, with through ticketing and guaranteed completion of the journey in the event of disruption. This would probably be best done on area by area basis, a local example would be Hull, where every bus route in the area is integrated for ticketing. It would have to be a rolling process, and there could be resistance from bus operators, but as most of them are I think in the receipt of subsidies from one source or another, the subsidy can be both the stick and the carrot to get them into an integrated system.

Once integration is acomplished for an area then a local travel card could be introduced. As adjacent areas are brought in that option could be extended to cover more zones on payment of a higher subscription. Eventually all but the most remote areas would be covered.

This would take time and vision to deliver, and to be honest I dont see anyone on the political landscape with the drive to see it through, in any of the main parties.

 

[yorksrob]

I would expand that to say any public transport in the UK.

Infrastructure improvements take far too long to deliver, and the real cost of delivery has risen over the last 50 years to the point where schemes are just not going to find funding.

Any scheme, travel card etc. is going to have to find a way of not overloading the existing system. Where trains or buses are already fully loaded there is no point in trying to encourage more useage.

I think that before any sort of card is introduced the whole fares system needs an overhaul. In the current climate it would have to be revenue neutral. But given that 3rd party websites can offer cheaper fares using split tickets, why cant the fare system be revised to deliver those fares to everyone.

I would get down to 3 simple fare categories for most journeys, Anytime, Offpeak, Advance, no TOC specific journeys, the Advance category will cover those fares. If we keep advance and offpeak returns then they are twice the price of a single. The fare offered in a category (Anytime, Offpeak, Advance) will always be the best fare available between the two points with no savings available by splitting tickets.

Having sorted out the fares structure the next step is to try and integrate the various modes of public transport. If you want to get more people on public transport then mixed mode journeys have to be integrated, with through ticketing and guaranteed completion of the journey in the event of disruption. This would probably be best done on area by area basis, a local example would be Hull, where every bus route in the area is integrated for ticketing. It would have to be a rolling process, and there could be resistance from bus operators, but as most of them are I think in the receipt of subsidies from one source or another, the subsidy can be both the stick and the carrot to get them into an integrated system.

Once integration is acomplished for an area then a local travel card could be introduced. As adjacent areas are brought in that option could be extended to cover more zones on payment of a higher subscription. Eventually all but the most remote areas would be covered.

This would take time and vision to deliver, and to be honest I dont see anyone on the political landscape with the drive to see it through, in any of the main parties.

Obviously, not scrapping every spare vehicle in sight might go some way to alleviating capacity issues........

 

[A0]

In contrast I'd like to see annual season tickets provide free (rather than 1/3 off only) travel for a larger geographical area on weekends - similar to the Chiltern annual ticket offering.

A good starting point will be making all annual season Travelcards all-zones during weekends (for example, a 2-3 Travelcard can be used across zones 1-9 during weekends), to encourage people buying them.

Bit in bold - but it wouldn't encourage greater uptake.

People who buy season tickets usually do so to reduce their commuting cost and any use they may get at the weekend is entirely incidental. If a season ticket isn't attractive for their daily commute now, simply adding on things which they probably won't use isn't going to change that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2023 ==

The whole purpose of the £2 fare ought to be to get people out of their cars on to public transport for environmental reasons. The bus route I use passes through a number of very affluent villages and it‘s here where getting people out of their cars to use public transport is most difficult. A large proportion of the people who live in the village where I live are fairly wealthy retired people who will have bus passes but they never use the hourly bus. Whenever I use the bus I’m usually the only one waiting at the bus stop. Perhaps if we actually had a few buses after 6pm some of the younger people might use them to go into town in the evening.

And if people are affluent, then price isn't going to be so much of a factor in their choice.

So reducing a £4 ticket to £2 isn't going to persuade somebody with an income of £100k a year to switch because it makes no real difference to them. Their decision isn't driven by cost, it's driven by comfort, convenience, fliexibility and a host of other factors. You could make the bus free but it still won't persuade the affluent village people to use it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2023 ==

Er, they've already given bus passengers a big sweetener with the £2 scheme. It's time to do something about train fares.

Er, most bus routes are run commercially, most train routes aren't. That's a big difference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2023 ==

The mood can certainly change quickly. I remember "Fare's Fair" in London, when Ken Livingstone more or less halved the bus and tube fares (before legal action by a Tory local council scuppered it). The mood on buses and tubes that day was like nothing I've ever experienced before [maybe VE-Day was like it in London in the '40s!?!] - all the staff and passengers were smiling, people were talking to one another, and even asking ticket collectors at tube stations whether they could keep their ticket as a memento...

For younger viewers, the reason why a few councils, such as Bromley and Croydon objected to 'fares fair' is because it took money from them in the form of supplementary rate demands to subsidise bus and tube services, but as it only reduced fares on the underground it meant they saw no benefit from that element.

It was a nakedly populist policy by Livingstone in his first incarnation where he was shovelling money to the inner London areas which voted for him, at the expense of the outer London boroughs who didn't.

 

[miklcct]

Bit in bold - but it wouldn't encourage greater uptake.

People who buy season tickets usually do so to reduce their commuting cost and any use they may get at the weekend is entirely incidental. If a season ticket isn't attractive for their daily commute now, simply adding on things which they probably won't use isn't going to change that.

A season Travelcard, even an annual one, is seldom worth it if you are only using it for commute, due to how the day cap is priced. It only provides minimal saving or even none at all compared to paying by PAYG for a standard 5-day commute.

For example, if you take the tube for your commute between zones 1-2 in peak hours for 232 days a year, the total PAYG fare is £1577.60, which is less than an annual Travelcard. If you plan to take a long annual leave, or have days where some of your commute is off peak, it will tip against the favour of a Travelcard. Only if you add in substantial weekend travel and the Gold Card discount (which is my case) then it will be worth it.

 

[yorksrob]

Er, most bus routes are run commercially, most train routes aren't. That's a big difference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2023 ==



For younger viewers, the reason why a few councils, such as Bromley and Croydon objected to 'fares fair' is because it took money from them in the form of supplementary rate demands to subsidise bus and tube services, but as it only reduced fares on the underground it meant they saw no benefit from that element.

It was a nakedly populist policy by Livingstone in his first incarnation where he was shovelling money to the inner London areas which voted for him, at the expense of the outer London boroughs who didn't.

Can a bus service be said to be "commercially" run if its being subsidised by the £2 scheme ? Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, but it's still a subsidy.

With regard to fares fare, I'm sure even true blue Bromley has bus services.