Stations which could be joined together to make a better large station

[Recessio]

Catford and Catford Bridge stations are only about 100 metres apart and are both aligned in a north / south direction. So these stations I think could realistically linked by a single footbridge, perhaps with a common entrance from Catford Road. There is a block of flats in between the two stations which probably would complicate matters though.

If the Bakerloo line extension comes to pass and it eventually absorbs the Hayes branch, it'll be interesting to see what they do to the two Catford stations, whether they'll keep them separate or not.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's a well worn path as to why it never happened, but I still think the two Bradford stations should have been connected and turned into one larger station. The chance was there before the shopping centre was built and I firmly believe in any "richer" city there'd have been more political will to make it happen while the opportunity was available no matter the cost.

If it had been done way back, in say the late 19th Century, nobody would be suggesting undoing it now... but the argument that doing it today would be some sort of magic bullet for the city of Bradford is deeply flawed. It wouldn't encourage people from outlying districts or nearby towns like Halifax or Keighley to choose Bradford for shopping instead of Leeds. It would just make it easier for people in Bradford to leave, and make it so that people passing through with no intention of spending money in Bradford could pass through more easily. While I don't doubt that some people are put off from making a journey like Brighouse to Ilkley by train because of the walk across the city, this isn't a huge market. Also if Bradford Interchange was a 'true' through station rather than a dead-end one, but still with lines at either end going where they do now, almost nobody would consider the prospect of linking the two.

 

[mrcheek]

When I walk between Euston and St Pan/KX I invariably walk along Euston Road.

However, last week I thought I'd try the recommended walking route between the two stations. So, I turned left at the bottom of the steps outside Euston, as shown by a large poster. But then where do I go? Couldn't see any further direction markers. Eventually took a side street and ended-up on Euston Road again.

This walking route needs to be properly sign-posted if it's to be effective.

On a side note, whilst the disconnect between the two Bradford stations annoys many people, the signposting between the two is excellent!

 

[Ken H]

If it had been done way back, in say the late 19th Century, nobody would be suggesting undoing it now... but the argument that doing it today would be some sort of magic bullet for the city of Bradford is deeply flawed. It wouldn't encourage people from outlying districts or nearby towns like Halifax or Keighley to choose Bradford for shopping instead of Leeds. It would just make it easier for people in Bradford to leave, and make it so that people passing through with no intention of spending money in Bradford could pass through more easily. While I don't doubt that some people are put off from making a journey like Brighouse to Ilkley by train because of the walk across the city, this isn't a huge market. Also if Bradford Interchange was a 'true' through station rather than a dead-end one, but still with lines at either end going where they do now, almost nobody would consider the prospect of linking the two.

Brighouse - Ilkley, you go via Leeds.

 

[cle]

If the Bakerloo line extension comes to pass and it eventually absorbs the Hayes branch, it'll be interesting to see what they do to the two Catford stations, whether they'll keep them separate or not.

It might be a worthwhile interchange. That line (should) sees 4tph to Orpington / Sevenoaks. And it’d be many stations’ first tube access.

But some journeys might be slow Vs existing services which do intercept Bakerloo spots at Waterloo East, Elephant and Charing Cross.

Still, could be useful for a Lewisham/DLR connect (and send all Chislehurst slows direct, and thus increase Sidcup line frequency) - as one example. Or NXG for Goldsmiths and ELL.

The faster services are comfortably pathed to call once between Denmark Hill and Bromley too.

 

[xotGD]

On a side note, whilst the disconnect between the two Bradford stations annoys many people, the signposting between the two is excellent!

Those little metal markers set into the pavement? Rubbish!

 

[HarryL]

Those little metal markers set into the pavement? Rubbish!

I've heard people mention these before, but I've never once noticed them. Which streets are they on and how obvious are they?

 

[xotGD]

I've heard people mention these before, but I've never once noticed them. Which streets are they on and how obvious are they?

They follow the obvious walking route.

They are only about 3 or 4 inches long, so easily missed.

 

[Recessio]

Slightly more controversial Underground opinion: Charing Cross and Embankment. The trains on the Northern and Bakerloo have barely moved out of the first platforms by the time they reach the next station.

However, although removing one set of platforms and merging the stations might increase train speed slightly, I'm not sure the loss in boarding/alighting capacity, and the longer walks it would add by becoming one big station, would make it worthwhile.

It would possibly set a new record of one big station having originally having been three stations (Strand and Trafalgar already having merged to become current Charing Cross)!

 

[Mikey C]

Slightly more controversial Underground opinion: Charing Cross and Embankment. The trains on the Northern and Bakerloo have barely moved out of the first platforms by the time they reach the next station.

However, although removing one set of platforms and merging the stations might increase train speed slightly, I'm not sure the loss in boarding/alighting capacity, and the longer walks it would add by becoming one big station, would make it worthwhile.

It would possibly set a new record of one big station having originally having been three stations (Strand and Trafalgar already having merged to become current Charing Cross)!

In a similar vein, if Leicester Square was ever rebuilt with a second eastern entrance in Covent Garden, you could then close that station. After all that's what happened with Knightsbridge, where a second entrance enabled the closure of Brompton Road

 

[xotGD]

The three Pontefract stations should be linked. A new central concourse adjacent to the bus station, with travelators from there to the three sets of platforms.

 

[WAO]

If it had been done way back, in say the late 19th Century, nobody would be suggesting undoing it now... but the argument that doing it today would be some sort of magic bullet for the city of Bradford is deeply flawed. It wouldn't encourage people from outlying districts or nearby towns like Halifax or Keighley to choose Bradford for shopping instead of Leeds. It would just make it easier for people in Bradford to leave, and make it so that people passing through with no intention of spending money in Bradford could pass through more easily. While I don't doubt that some people are put off from making a journey like Brighouse to Ilkley by train because of the walk across the city, this isn't a huge market. Also if Bradford Interchange was a 'true' through station rather than a dead-end one, but still with lines at either end going where they do now, almost nobody would consider the prospect of linking the two.

This is a very strange argument. While it is true that the obstructive presence of a modern shopping centre and Courts makes the prospect of a link very unlikely in our lifetimes, no one would reasonably argue that cities, (say Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester or Liverpool) would be better off with more central stations, because passengers travelling through don't contribute to the city centres.

I used to love "making my own way" between Manchester Central and Piccadilly or carrying a suitcase from Lime Street to Exchange!

WAO

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This is a very strange argument. While it is true that the obstructive presence of a modern shopping centre and Courts makes the prospect of a link very unlikely in our lifetimes, no one would reasonably argue that cities, (say Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester or Liverpool) would be better off with more central stations, because passengers travelling through don't contribute to the city centres.

That isn't the argument I'm making though: as the post you quoted says, if the link was already there nobody would suggest removing it. That doesn't mean it should be done now. Advocates for the cross Bradford link often cite the idea of a Halifax to Ilkley link (for example) as something that would benefit Bradford, but can never explain how. All it would do is allow people to pass through without setting foot on Bradford soil. As things stand with Bradford having two stations only Leeds (and at a stretch Wakefield, Doncaster and London) is served from both. If you're in the city centre you know which station to head to unless you're going to Leeds- in which case a quick search on your smartphone will tell you which station to use (unless you're one of the tiny handful of refuseniks this forum alone cares about).

 

[WAO]

That isn't the argument I'm making though: as the post you quoted says, if the link was already there nobody would suggest removing it. That doesn't mean it should be done now.

It means that it should be done now if there were a present over-riding planning and financial case, which thanks to City Council decisions, there isn't.

I agree that two stations do not inconvenience some; others may choose non-rail modes or not to travel.

Like Forster Square and Exchange, we actually aren't far apart!

Regards,

WAO

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Brighouse - Ilkley, you go via Leeds.

Yes, that would be the obvious choice. However it's journeys similar to that which are often cited by those who support the idea of building a railway across Bradford city centre. The problem is those journeys are fairly niche, and simply don't have the numbers to support the huge cost that the cross-city link would require.

 

[Ken H]

Yes, that would be the obvious choice. However it's journeys similar to that which are often cited by those who support the idea of building a railway across Bradford city centre. The problem is those journeys are fairly niche, and simply don't have the numbers to support the huge cost that the cross-city link would require.

Have an uptick!

 

[Parjon]

A big bright pedestrian tunnel linking Liverpool Lime Street mainline station to Central would boost connectivity by delivering passengers straight to the Northern Line. Including enabling Lime St - Moorfelds journeys.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A big bright pedestrian tunnel linking Liverpool Lime Street mainline station to Central would boost connectivity by delivering passengers straight to the Northern Line. Including enabling Lime St - Moorfelds journeys.

Or if you must do something, capture most of the benefit at a fraction of the price by painting a (merseyrail yellow?) line from Lime Street to Central and tell people to follow the line for the Northern Line

 

[Parjon]

Or if you must do something, capture most of the benefit at a fraction of the price by painting a (merseyrail yellow?) line from Lime Street to Central and tell people to follow the line for the Northern Line

Why "if you must do something", as if doing anything is too much?

The connectivity provided by the Wirral Line is inefficient versus the walk. The walk can be improved for all, including making the connectivity an attractor for the areas it would make more accessible.

Would be such an improvement I really don't understand it's beyond the pale to suggest it. Elsewhere it would be a no brainer.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would be such an improvement I really don't understand it's beyond the pale to suggest it.

Cost.

To elaborate:
- holes in the ground do not come for free
- holes in the ground in town need to avoid (or somehow relocate) underground services, building foundations and so on, making them even less free
- holes in the ground intended for pedestrian use cannot be too deep else the time spent getting up and down from them may outweigh any time saving over using an existing route (in this case the surface streets) thus making digging the hole without mangling basements, foundations or sewers even more less free.

And this is before getting on to the 'benefit' side of a cost versus benefit analysis. Put briefly, what great benefit would a subway with or without a travelator have over a clearly marked surface route? Would this benefit justify the additional cost?

 

[Parjon]

Yes.

 

[adamedwards]

While we're there we could connect Upper Tyndrum and Tyndrum Lower with a short funicular.

Zip wire one way would be more fun!

 

[Recessio]

Another Underground one: Hammersmith and Hammersmith.

 

[LUYMun]

Farnborough Main and Farnborough North could do with direct interchanges, though that would move it away from the town centre.

While on that thought, moving Farnborough North a couple of hundred metres north to adjacent Farnborough Gate and providing a walkway between there and Frimley might be more plausible...

 

[Basil Jet]

Bounds Green LU and Bowes Park NR. Neither are wheelchair accessible at the moment, and while Bounds Green is well sited, Bowes Park is hidden in back streets.

Bounds Green LU platforms are about 16 metres below ground, which means a new wheelchair-friendly 1:20 slope up from the centre of the tube platforms towards the southeast would come to the surface 320 metres away, roughly where the NR line crosses Bounds Green Road. The slope would be under Bounds Green Road, making construction easier. A 120m level walkway could be constructed from the same place alongside the railway to the southern end of the NR platforms, and then a short bridge over one track to the island platform, and then a 100 metre ramp down to reach the platform alongside the existing staircase (which would be retained). The Bowes Park platform building would have to be demolished for the ramp, but I doubt if many will miss it. I can't see travelators being viable in either ramp. All existing entrances to either station would be retained.

 

[Meerkat]

See that is a smart idea with lifts up from Dorking station as an elevated walkway, it would provide step-free access to Deepdene station at the same time (quite difficult with the current station entrance I think). Dorking isn't a particularly shifty place at night, but building some station facilities for Deepdene simultaneously (perhaps a platform extension too) wouldn't go amiss.

How much interchange traffic is there? Neither line is metro frequency.
elevated walkway wouldn’t get approved.
Dorking isn’t as twee Surrey town as people tend to assume and there is no problem with the road route that most people would probably take anyway rather than a new back alley.
Deepdene does desperately need lifts and better facilities.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

On a side note, whilst the disconnect between the two Bradford stations annoys many people, the signposting between the two is excellent!

If the Bradford stations had been connected I would bet one of the routes to Leeds would have been closed at some point, and the remaining one would now be a big moan about congestion!

 

[Bartsimho]

If the Bradford stations had been connected I would bet one of the routes to Leeds would have been closed at some point, and the remaining one would now be a big moan about congestion!

The entire makeup of Leeds and Bradford would probably be different as Bradford was planned as a through station on St Pancras to Scotland services by the Midland Railway using the Settle and Carlisle beyond

 

[AlastairFraser]

How much interchange traffic is there? Neither line is metro frequency.
elevated walkway wouldn’t get approved.
Dorking isn’t as twee Surrey town as people tend to assume and there is no problem with the road route that most people would probably take anyway rather than a new back alley.
Deepdene does desperately need lifts and better facilities.

Why do you think an elevated walkway wouldn't get approved? Opposition from locals?

 

[30907]

The entire makeup of Leeds and Bradford would probably be different as Bradford was planned as a through station on St Pancras to Scotland services by the Midland Railway using the Settle and Carlisle beyond

I'm not sure that putting Bradford on a not-very-busy line to Scotland would have made much difference to the city - and the impact on Leeds would have been minimal unless the MR had taken a decision to run Sheffield-Bradford-Leeds.
Leeds would still have had much better connectivity overall.

 

[YorksLad12]

The entire makeup of Leeds and Bradford would probably be different as Bradford was planned as a through station on St Pancras to Scotland services by the Midland Railway using the Settle and Carlisle beyond

Which Bradford? Assume you mean Forster Square, which was not planned as a through station; it was to be the point at which the Midland would run a new line to from north-east of Low Moor, bypassing Exchange (now Interchange).