Edinburgh & the Lothians bus network speculations & ideas

[stevenedin]

God only knows what there up to at Livingston.

Over the summer season Brightbus is likely bringing in quite abit of Revenue, that being ate into by the long out of service drive from Edinburgh back to Livingston Depot and off season running.

With the drivers they have left they should remove the the x22 & x24 and concentrate there Edinburgh efforts on the 20, 63, 68 & Tours, at least the tours should take decent money and the 20, 63 & 68 are all subsidised, I also wouldnt be surprised if those subsidised routes actually take in more money that some do there other stuff anyways, surprisingly the 20 & 63 can be fairy busy especially in Saturdays with people going shopping.

There remaining resources should then be utilised and spread out across West Lothian itself.

I was just thinking that the X24 is completely covered by other routes from Edinburgh Waterloo Place to Uphall it is covered by the X18 and any fast links in Livingston already have the X27 and X28 serving that area already just not on the fast link side. Alderstone Road would lose a bus to Edinburgh that is the only loss but they could change at Livingston Centre or St John’s Hospital.

For the X22 the only loss is Gorgie, Dalry, Haymarket and Shandwick Place to West Lothian so that route could be slightly more justified. Also the section of the route between Livingston and East Calder Langton Road can take quite a few passengers and with the loss of the 40 it would leave just the X28 going there unless that gets a frequency increase.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I was just thinking that the X24 is completely covered by other routes from Edinburgh Waterloo Place to Uphall it is covered by the X18 and any fast links in Livingston already have the X27 and X28 serving that area already just not on the fast link side. Alderstone Road would lose a bus to Edinburgh that is the only loss but they could change at Livingston Centre or St John’s Hospital.

Although one thing to consider is that journey times on the X27/X28 are significantly longer. From Knightsridge for example the X24 (from the Fastlink) takes pretty much exactly an hour whereas the X27/X28 take around 90 minutes.

I'm not really too sure what the obsession with getting rid of the X24 is, i would have thought even if there were to be a cut then the first step would be merging the 23/X24 and reducing the Broxburn to Edinburgh section to hourly. Likewise i would expect that if there were to be a cut the X22 would go down to hourly before it is axed outright. But we're all jumping to the assumption that McGill's are going to cut services; which at present is not a given.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I was just thinking that the X24 is completely covered by other routes from Edinburgh Waterloo Place to Uphall it is covered by the X18 and any fast links in Livingston already have the X27 and X28 serving that area already just not on the fast link side. Alderstone Road would lose a bus to Edinburgh that is the only loss but they could change at Livingston Centre or St John’s Hospital.

For the X22 the only loss is Gorgie, Dalry, Haymarket and Shandwick Place to West Lothian so that route could be slightly more justified. Also the section of the route between Livingston and East Calder Langton Road can take quite a few passengers and with the loss of the 40 it would leave just the X28 going there unless that gets a frequency increase.

At this moment it’s becoming irrelevant where the x22 & x24 goes and where they don’t go if they can’t be reliable, it’s a very simple view point of the situation.

Although one thing to consider is that journey times on the X27/X28 are significantly longer. From Knightsridge for example the X24 (from the Fastlink) takes pretty much exactly an hour whereas the X27/X28 take around 90 minutes.

They may be longer but if the journey is necessary so be it people will use it.

Same rhetoric as I’ve mentioned above, it doesn’t matter if alternative quicker journeys can’t be reliable.

I'm not really too sure what the obsession with getting rid of the X24 is, i would have thought even if there were to be a cut then the first step would be merging the 23/X24 and reducing the Broxburn to Edinburgh section to hourly. Likewise i would expect that if there were to be a cut the X22 would go down to hourly before it is axed outright. But we're all jumping to the assumption that McGill's are going to cut services; which at present is not a given.

At present it seems the only thing McGills may as well do is deregister some services and consolidate in West Lothian what they can operate fully; including within Armadale, Bathgate, Whitburn, Blackburn, Deans, Ladywell, Pumpherston, Craigshill, Almondvale, St John’s H, Dedridge(West & East), Mid & East Caulder, Calderwood, Eliburn, Kirkton, Winchburgh, Uphall, Broxburn and maybe as far as West Calder and Addiewell.

With these on going issues and seemingly the problems not getting any better with it now being only 1 week over a year since McGills took over, there confidence at the time made everyone hopeful, it’s petering out slowly but surely.

When this week myself and another person left comments on here after finding out that Eastern Scottish were not answering recruitment questions or requests? It’s hard to see the positives.

 

[Ding Ding]

The X22 provides a faster route to west Edinburgh from Livingston, Mid Calder and East Calder as it just goes up Langton Road then along the A71 but it also provides a link from Gorgie and Dalry to West Lothian.

I know that it would never happen but it would be good if the X22 ways withdrawn if a new route was created or an existing Lothian route was extended to Livingston running past Dalry and Gorgie as they have had a service to West Lothian for years and it would be a shame to lose it.

The X22 is not a faster route to Edinburgh. If you look at the respective timetables, Lothian Country are 1hr 1 min from Liv Centre to Edinburgh, Eastern Scottish are 1hr 2 mins for same journey, when I looked.

 

[LiviCrazy]

The X22 is not a faster route to Edinburgh. If you look at the respective timetables, Lothian Country are 1hr 1 min from Liv Centre to Edinburgh, Eastern Scottish are 1hr 2 mins for same journey, when I looked.

Worth highlighting that timetable time and actual operational time are quite different. If you look at what tracking is available of both routes in recent times (Lothian’s tracking on BusTimes lately is very very erratic), you’ll see that Lothian Country struggle to keep to that time, from what I can see I don’t think they’ve accounted for the hugely increased passenger numbers within the city boundary.

Whereas the X22 can go through the city only dropping people off/picking up depending on direction, X27/X28 has become very popular at every stop.

(That’s obviously counting journeys that run only, not accounting for the fact that so many X22s are cancelled now).

 

[danielhogg2005]

Apparently it would serve Linlithgow but I wasn't told anything more substantial. It would definitely be medium-long term. Lothian are still interested in the West Lothian area, so fingers crossed McGills will be kicked oot.

Hopefully they do, on the McGill's Scotland East thread there was talks about the impact on the Fastlink to Edinburgh if the X24 was withdrawn and I thought that the X17 would be beneficial at this point.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Apparently it would serve Linlithgow but I wasn't told anything more substantial. It would definitely be medium-long term. Lothian are still interested in the West Lothian area, so fingers crossed McGills will be kicked oot.

That's interesting, I assume it's not a copy of the X38 but rather a local link? I know it's just rumours now so I won't entertain the fact this will be actually happening untill we get more proof!

Saying that, even if McGills surrender in West Lothian, it doesn't mean they won't give up Falkirk and Stirling, and unless they change the X38 to run up the M9 past Linlithgow then I don't see McGills leaving that part of West Lothian.

 

[danielhogg2005]

That's interesting, I assume it's not a copy of the X38 but rather a local link? I know it's just rumours now so I won't entertain the fact this will be actually happening untill we get more proof!

Saying that, even if McGills surrender in West Lothian, it doesn't mean they won't give up Falkirk and Stirling, and unless they change the X38 to run up the M9 past Linlithgow then I don't see McGills leaving that part of West Lothian.

I'm not sure if a local link could work, because Lothian Country will most likely operate all local services either to or through Livingston so this 78 may very well be in competition with SD Travel's 31 for part or all route.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I'm not sure if a local link could work, because Lothian Country will most likely operate all local services either to or through Livingston so this 78 may very well be in competition with SD Travel's 31 for part or all route.

I mean i could see a local service working where it doesn't need to serve Livingston at all, like a service running direct to Queensferry via Springfield, Newton in one direction and Whitburn via Bathgate and Armadale in the other way.

The truth is, unless McGills abandons Linlithgow, there is no way Lothian are gonna plug the gap properly without interfering with another operator, LCB's X38 had potential with giving Kirkliston residents a direct Lothian bus to the city but ended up ultimately being a disaster.

 

[CSB0241]

Would it run via Mayfield Road and West Mains Road or Liberton Road and Esslemont Road?

Would something change with Service 1? What I would do is extend it right to Marine via the A199 to give that area a bus service, and also curtail the 45 to Wakefield Avenue, or reroute the 12 to Wakefield Avenue, not serving Marine.

1. The former, otherwise it’d have to do a one-way route to Seafield via Lygon Road & Granby Road since the turn from Liberton Road onto Gordon Terrace is a pain to navigate

2. I’d say that every other journey on the 1 would curtail at Leith Links Mon-Sat like the pre-2020 route. Sunday journeys would be unaffected, & the Saturday frequency would be upped to every 15min

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

That's interesting, I assume it's not a copy of the X38 but rather a local link? I know it's just rumours now so I won't entertain the fact this will be actually happening untill we get more proof!

Saying that, even if McGills surrender in West Lothian, it doesn't mean they won't give up Falkirk and Stirling, and unless they change the X38 to run up the M9 past Linlithgow then I don't see McGills leaving that part of West Lothian.

Yeah, everyone’s talking about how their ventures with ES have been unsuccessful, but it sounds like they’re doing well with MB!

 

[DespacitoPlayz]

The X22 is not a faster route to Edinburgh. If you look at the respective timetables, Lothian Country are 1hr 1 min from Liv Centre to Edinburgh, Eastern Scottish are 1hr 2 mins for same journey, when I looked.

The respective timetables aren't always accurate. Normally the buses are around 10mins out of reach on either side, (early & late).

It also depends on what Lothian Country bus you're taking, whether that be the X27 or X28, as their routes are a little different with the X28 being a sliver longer. Plus it's only ~1 minute difference between Lothian Country's routes and Eastern Scottish.

Your general point, however, is very accurate! I can't fathom how despite the Eastern Scottish X22 travelling directly via Langton Road and the A71 is slower than the Lothian Country routes! (X27/X28, and maybe even the X40 when it is taken over)

 

[danielhogg2005]

The respective timetables aren't always accurate. Normally the buses are around 10mins out of reach on either side, (early & late).

It also depends on what Lothian Country bus you're taking, whether that be the X27 or X28, as their routes are a little different with the X28 being a sliver longer. Plus it's only ~1 minute difference between Lothian Country's routes and Eastern Scottish.

Your general point, however, is very accurate! I can't fathom how despite the Eastern Scottish X22 travelling directly via Langton Road and the A71 is slower than the Lothian Country routes! (X27/X28, and maybe even the X40 when it is taken over)

The X22 only really gets its speed from the fact that it isn't as popular as the X27 and the X28, and also on a personal note the X22 usually uses vehicles which arent that nice compared to Lothian Country vehicles.

 

[GusB]

A number of off-topic posts have been removed. The forum member who suggested a service from Ocean Terminal to Cramond via Inchmickery and Cramond Island is welcome to do so, but this would have to be in the "Other Transport" section of the forum as clearly it isn't possible by bus.

They may also wish to leave it until April 1st

 

[Ding Ding]

The respective timetables aren't always accurate. Normally the buses are around 10mins out of reach on either side, (early & late).

It also depends on what Lothian Country bus you're taking, whether that be the X27 or X28, as their routes are a little different with the X28 being a sliver longer. Plus it's only ~1 minute difference between Lothian Country's routes and Eastern Scottish.

Your general point, however, is very accurate! I can't fathom how despite the Eastern Scottish X22 travelling directly via Langton Road and the A71 is slower than the Lothian Country routes! (X27/X28, and maybe even the X40 when it is taken over)

The Timetables are 100% accurate, it is the bus that may not be running on time. The bus may be late by 10 mins, but it could never be EARLY by this margin.
The point I was making, is that people seem to think that Lothian Country have longer journey times compared to Eastern Scottish on their routes, this may be because they think that, because they go through most schemes they take more time, they don't.

 

[danielhogg2005]

New Route Idea - Feedback would be appreciated thanks.

Service 6 - Ocean Terminal - Queen Margaret Uni

Route:
Ocean Terminal
North Junction Street
Great Junction Street
Duke Street
Hermitage Place
Claremont Park
Seafield Road
Craigentinny Avenue
Wakefield Avenue
Portobello High Street
Joppa Road
Seaview Terrace
Newhailes Road
Clayknowes Road
Queen Margaret University

Frequency
Mon-Fri Daytime: Every 30 Minutes
Saturday Daytime: Every 30 Minutes
Sunday & Evenings: Every 60 Minutes
Service would finish with last journeys Terminating at the depot for 9-9.30pm.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2023 ==

To follow up with the main post I also created a guide to new links and improved links that could come with this Service.

New Links
Ocean Terminal - Seafield/Lochend/Portobello/Queen Margaret Uni

Leith/Seafield/Lochend/Portobello - Queen Margaret Uni (Portobello Link formerly served by 45)

Seafield - Portobello/Queen Margaret Uni

Links Strenghtned
Ocean Terminal - Leith (Kirkgate)(5 Buses per hour Mon-Sat, 3 Buses per hour Sun)

Leith/Lochend - Portobello (9 Buses per hour Mon-Sat, 5 Buses per hour Sun)

 

[bobdoe]

It is a bit crazy that getting from Joppa to QMU currently takes 30-40 minutes by bus.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

It is a bit crazy that getting from Joppa to QMU currently takes 30-40 minutes by bus.

I would say it is more like 20 minutes, that is a little exaggerated but it's still not the best, by any means.

 

[DespacitoPlayz]

Service 6 - Ocean Terminal - Queen Margaret Uni

Route:
Ocean Terminal
North Junction Street
Great Junction Street
Duke Street
Hermitage Place
Claremont Park
Seafield Road
Craigentinny Avenue
Wakefield Avenue
Portobello High Street
Joppa Road
Seaview Terrace
Newhailes Road
Clayknowes Road
Queen Margaret University

Good route! A thing I might do (maybe, even though your way is very good) is have your 6 run via Seafield Road and Seafield Road East over Craigentinny Avenue and Wakefield Avenue. This would also give Fillyside a bus service.

New Links
Ocean Terminal - Seafield/Lochend/Portobello/Queen Margaret Uni

Leith/Seafield/Lochend/Portobello - Queen Margaret Uni (Portobello Link formerly served by 45)

The north has always needed a link to QMU, especially with the 45 cut, Portobello was left without a QMU Service! Good point here!

Seafield - Portobello/Queen Margaret Uni

Would work a little better with Seafield Road East. The 49 partly does this with a connection to the 4 from the Jewel already, but a good connection nonetheless!

Links Strenghtned
Ocean Terminal - Leith (Kirkgate)(5 Buses per hour Mon-Sat, 3 Buses per hour Sun)

Since the 35 isn't that active, this would help, and this link would be strengthened a lot.

Leith/Lochend - Portobello (9 Buses per hour Mon-Sat, 5 Buses per hour Sun)

Already has 2/3 routes covering (19*, 21, 49 Lochend and 21, 49 Leith) but a little more strengthening would really help and a good suggestion overall!

I really like this, and would love to see it in action!

*partly serving Lochend, not fully. More Craigentinny to be honest.

 

[bobdoe]

I would say it is more like 20 minutes, that is a little exaggerated but it's still not the best, by any means.

I got 30-40 minutes from Google Maps (link), don't know if that's true in practice.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I got 30-40 minutes from Google Maps (link), don't know if that's true in practice.

I just checked Google Maps and it says 24 minutes for me.

 

[CSB0241]

Ok, so kind of trailing back a few dozen posts ago, but after planning for making an episode for my Bus News series, I discovered that there isn’t a single bus through Newton, so I made an alternative.

I don’t have a number for it, so I just used a pink dot. It’d run between Carlowrie Avenue in Dalmeny to Livingston South Station & would be be every 60min Mon-Sat (maybe 90, I don’t know the demand for buses in the village but surely they’d need at least 1 service). It probably wouldn’t need a Sunday Service, but who knows, it might be a hit.

The route is as the following;
Carlowrie Avenue, Standingstane Road, Dalmeny Main Street, Bankhead Road, Station Road, Burdock Road,
then either via Carlow Gardens, Daybell Loan, & Hewlett Way, or Sandercombe Drive & Packard Street,
then Borrowman Square, Sommerville Gardens, Ferrymuir, Ferrymuir Retail Park, Ferrymuir Road, Builyeon Road, Echline Corner, A904, Newton Main Street, A904, B8046, M9J4, Windyridge Cottages, B8046, B9080, B8046, Ecclesmachan Cottages, B8046, Ecclesmachan Road, Uphall West Main Street, Station Road, Pumpherston Road, Uphall Station Road, Pumpherston Road, Bank Street, Mid Calder Main Street, Calder Park Road, Bankton Road, Muireston East Road, Livingston South Station. Return via same route.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Ok, so kind of trailing back a few dozen posts ago, but after planning for making an episode for my Bus News series, I discovered that there isn’t a single bus through Newton, so I made an alternative.

I don’t have a number for it, so I just used a pink dot. It’d run between Carlowrie Avenue in Dalmeny to Livingston South Station & would be be every 60min Mon-Sat (maybe 90, I don’t know the demand for buses in the village but surely they’d need at least 1 service). It probably wouldn’t need a Sunday Service, but who knows, it might be a hit.

The route is as the following;
Carlowrie Avenue, Standingstane Road, Dalmeny Main Street, Bankhead Road, Station Road, Burdock Road,
then either via Carlow Gardens, Daybell Loan, & Hewlett Way, or Sandercombe Drive & Packard Street,
then Borrowman Square, Sommerville Gardens, Ferrymuir, Ferrymuir Retail Park, Ferrymuir Road, Builyeon Road, Echline Corner, A904, Newton Main Street, A904, B8046, M9J4, Windyridge Cottages, B8046, B9080, B8046, Ecclesmachan Cottages, B8046, Ecclesmachan Road, Uphall West Main Street, Station Road, Pumpherston Road, Uphall Station Road, Pumpherston Road, Bank Street, Mid Calder Main Street, Calder Park Road, Bankton Road, Muireston East Road, Livingston South Station. Return via same route.

Whats really the point of it though? It goes nowhere substantial so any demand for a bus in Newton will be rendered pointless if it goes nowhere that people want to go eg… Edinburgh, Broxburn or Livingston

 

[LiviCrazy]

Looking at how close the terminuses of the 43 and the 72 are, would there be use in LC extending the 72 up to Tesco. This would allow people to connect onto a 43 easily enough. From what I can tell, it would only add two stops a total journey time of 5mins each way.

 

[danielhogg2005]

Looking at how close the terminuses of the 43 and the 72 are, would there be use in LC extending the 72 up to Tesco. This would allow people to connect onto a 43 easily enough. From what I can tell, it would only add two stops a total journey time of 5mins each way.

Where would people want to get the 72 from to connect to a 43? Because Kirkliston and Winchburgh are served by the X38, Broxburn and Uphall are served by the X18 and the X24 and Livingston is served by the X22, X27 & X28. The only positive I can see coming from this connection being that people can get to Craigleith sainsburys but that's it I think.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Where would people want to get the 72 from to connect to a 43? Because Kirkliston and Winchburgh are served by the X38, Broxburn and Uphall are served by the X18 and the X24 and Livingston is served by the X22, X27 & X28. The only positive I can see coming from this connection being that people can get to Craigleith sainsburys but that's it I think.

It would give people in South Queensferry, Dalmeny etc connections directly to other parts of West Lothian other than Livingston (which they can obviously do by X51). It would also provide a connection between Kirkliston and South Queensferry, allowing people to bus to the supermarket etc, all at relatively little extra journey time (I’m not an expert at timetabling so not sure if feasible).

 

[danielhogg2005]

It would give people in South Queensferry, Dalmeny etc connections directly to other parts of West Lothian other than Livingston (which they can obviously do by X51). It would also provide a connection between Kirkliston and South Queensferry, allowing people to bus to the supermarket etc, all at relatively little extra journey time (I’m not an expert at timetabling so not sure if feasible).

With the current situation with the 63 taken into account. This could work because the 72 would have more journeys compared to the 63 and the 72 could connect West Lothain to Queensferry better this way.

But again it would only have a small chance of working in my opinion.

 

[Ding Ding]

Ok, so kind of trailing back a few dozen posts ago, but after planning for making an episode for my Bus News series, I discovered that there isn’t a single bus through Newton, so I made an alternative.

I don’t have a number for it, so I just used a pink dot. It’d run between Carlowrie Avenue in Dalmeny to Livingston South Station & would be be every 60min Mon-Sat (maybe 90, I don’t know the demand for buses in the village but surely they’d need at least 1 service). It probably wouldn’t need a Sunday Service, but who knows, it might be a hit.

The route is as the following;
Carlowrie Avenue, Standingstane Road, Dalmeny Main Street, Bankhead Road, Station Road, Burdock Road,
then either via Carlow Gardens, Daybell Loan, & Hewlett Way, or Sandercombe Drive & Packard Street,
then Borrowman Square, Sommerville Gardens, Ferrymuir, Ferrymuir Retail Park, Ferrymuir Road, Builyeon Road, Echline Corner, A904, Newton Main Street, A904, B8046, M9J4, Windyridge Cottages, B8046, B9080, B8046, Ecclesmachan Cottages, B8046, Ecclesmachan Road, Uphall West Main Street, Station Road, Pumpherston Road, Uphall Station Road, Pumpherston Road, Bank Street, Mid Calder Main Street, Calder Park Road, Bankton Road, Muireston East Road, Livingston South Station. Return via same route.

I appreciate that this is a thread for speculation and ideas, but this is just a route for a bus to run empty, earning no money.

 

[InOban]

No-one wants to go to Tesco? Or get the train into Edinburgh from Dalmeny?
I've kept out of this thread because I'm not local to that side of Edinburgh /West Lothian but since neither Kirkliston nor Winchburgh has any more than a convenience store, I would surprised if there isn't some demand. I thought that the issue was the criscrossing of boundaries

 

[LiviCrazy]

No-one wants to go to Tesco? Or get the train into Edinburgh from Dalmeny?
I've kept out of this thread because I'm not local to that side of Edinburgh /West Lothian but since neither Kirkliston nor Winchburgh has any more than a convenience store, I would surprised if there isn't some demand. I thought that the issue was the criscrossing of boundaries

That’s my thought too. With the loss of the 7 and the 16 only being twice a day, this could help plug a gap. I thought given the minimal distance added, that it could be run commercially (I presume it must be already partly given Kirkliston is in City of Edinburgh it is it just because Winchburgh has nowhere to turn?)

 

[danielhogg2005]

That’s my thought too. With the loss of the 7 and the 16 only being twice a day, this could help plug a gap. I thought given the minimal distance added, that it could be run commercially (I presume it must be already partly given Kirkliston is in City of Edinburgh it is it just because Winchburgh has nowhere to turn?)

The 72 terminates at Kirkliston so the route can serve all ends of Winchburgh.