Could a Monthly Subscription ticket work in the UK?

[Starmill]

Just to understand the figures : how do you arrive at the £40k and £15k per year figures, please? (Sorry if that's explained somewhere else and I've missed it)

The former is just a bit more than what one person could reasonably spend in a year, if they travel a few times a week, every week, making long journeys at the most popular times. It also fits perfectly with the rumoured price of a bearer pass in 2009, which was allegedly issued at £28k, although nobody was ever prepared to substantiate that claim, their existence was in the fares manual at the time. The latter is a little bit less than 20 two week ALRs. Of course these prices are quite conservative and would in reality be subject to a commercial negotiation if you wanted them to be valid on Hull Trains, Lumo, Grand Central, London Overground, Elizabeth line, Merseyrail, ScotRail, Caledonian Sleeper and Transport for Wales Rail. That may make them more expensive. Alternatively a pass which excludes these could be what people are suggesting.

 

[Mainline421]

It could work but you would probably have to exclude National Rail, so covering buses, trams, tube, Tyne and Wear, etc.

There is already the legendary All Line Rail Pass, although pricing isn't public I suspect it's less than £40K. The annual Bahn Card 100 is only 4,339 Euro for over 27s and that includes a 49 Euro ticket for each month.

 

[Starmill]

It could work but you would probably have to exclude National Rail, so covering buses, trams, tube, Tyne and Wear, etc.

There is already the legendary All Line Rail Pass, although pricing isn't public I suspect it'll less than £40K. The annual Bahn Card 100 is only 4,339 Euro for over 27s and that includes a 49 Euro ticket for each month.

That would just result in bunging an enormous subsidy at everywhere that has a tramway or metro, at the expense of everywhere that doesn't. Would be amazing for people who live in Rickmansworth though, as a month of travel would go down from £311.10 to whatever your new monthly rate is (about £40?).

 

[HSTEd]

Just to understand the figures : how do you arrive at the £40k and £15k per year figures, please? (Sorry if that's explained somewhere else and I've missed it)

There is already a "go anywhere" ticket, valid for 14 days, albeit with peak restrictions. The 14 day all Line Rover.

It costs £866.00 for an adult, 26 of them and you will be pushing £22,500 or so.

You might give them a discount for buying the whole year, but its not going to be much under £15k

 

[Mainline421]

That would just result in bunging an enormous subsidy at everywhere that has a tramway or metro, at the expense of everywhere that doesn't. Would be amazing for people who live in Rickmansworth though, as a month of travel would go down from £311.10 to whatever your new monthly rate is (about £40?).

I don't see how it's at the expense of anywhere, that would cover all local transport across the country if that happens to only be buses it's still all covered. I would have thought it wouldn't work in Germany, but it's being herald as a success there, even including much of their national rail network. So much so that France are now imitating it.

The major problem is it doesn't work well with our privatised system, but on-road competition between bus operators seems to be increasingly rare anyway with even Manchester implementing franchising. As for pricing, £45 would probably be a good introductory price.

 

[Starmill]

I don't see how it's at the expense of anywhere, that would cover all local transport across the country if that happens to only be buses it's still all covered.

Well if you want to make the same ticket valid on all London Underground services as well as all buses in Rossendale, which doesn't have any other kind of public transport service, you'd either have to slash the price of London Underground or increase the price of buses in Rossendale many times over. Obviously the latter is totally impossible so it'd have to be the former. And that would result in several billion pounds per year in new subsidy to London Underground, while only a few million per year to the bus passengers of Rossendale. In that way it would move money away from areas with only buses and towards those with far more expensive light rail and metro systems.

Much fairer to just allocate the new subsidy (given we're probably talking a few tens of billions here) directly using a formula based on resident census population, and let the local government decide how to spend it.

 

[Mainline421]

Well if you want to make the same ticket valid on all London Underground services as well as all buses in Rossendale, which doesn't have any other kind of public transport service, you'd either have to slash the price of London Underground or increase the price of buses in Rossendale many times over. Obviously the latter is totally impossible so it'd have to be the former. And that would result in several billion pounds per year in new subsidy to London Underground, while only a few million per year to the bus passengers of Rossendale. In that way it would move money away from areas with only buses and towards those with far more expensive light rail and metro systems.

Much fairer to just allocate the new subsidy (given we're probably talking a few tens of billions here) directly using a formula based on resident census population, and let the local government decide how to spend it.

The price would be equivalent to €49 so about £45. Can't find how the Deutschlandticket subsidy works, but London Underground is obviously deserving of more subsidy than buses in Rossendale.

 

[renegademaster]

Since the German system includes buses, trams, etc, as well as non-IC trains, I presume accounting for the subsidy and getting the money to the right place is only possible because local/regional buses etc are run in a co-ordinated/franchised way. With random mixtures of private companies running buses in some part of Britain, it seems hard to envisage a German-style system here, even apart from the lack of definition of regional/IC rail services. If we had buses services back as a public service under public control then something might be possible here, though the rail definition problem might mean that it would have to be a regional rather than national system.

All of the rail system already operates under a common ticketing system(of which ownership is slowly getting merged into a single government entity), and most bus services are run by tri-opoly that have been forced into common ticket systems in lots of cities, and have largely had their prices fixed at £2. Not really much harder to pull off than Germany's uniting of its holy Roman empire of DB, private rail, state and city transport corporations

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What would work is something that got more people on trains by pre-payment bringing bigger discount. You could call it a railcard. I'm too young for senior and too senior for young persons - but I would happily pay £250-£500 per year to get 50% off travel off-peak. That would cause me to make rail journeys where I currently use the car. Cross country would need to fix their overcrowding though.. DB Bahn Card had/has similar kinds of pay more get more discount options.

A good start would be to just fix the Network Railcard to cover the entire network (or, if DfT feel that's too generous, create similar railcards like the Network Railcard that cover other UK regions).

 

[Starmill]

The price would be equivalent to €49 so about £45. Can't find how the Deutschlandticket subsidy works, but London Underground is obviously deserving of more subsidy than buses in Rossendale.

Why is it deserving of about five to seven times as much subsidy per passenger journey or per local resident? Surely it's about the same?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

All of the rail system already operates under a common ticketing system(of which ownership is slowly getting merged into a single government entity), and most bus services are run by tri-opoly that have been forced into common ticket systems in lots of cities, and have largely had their prices fixed at £2. Not really much harder to pull off than Germany's uniting of its holy Roman empire of DB, private rail, state and city transport corporations

It is, because the English funding position means those services are all being run on a shoestring, and many are financially unsustainable as it is. The German system uses local and national taxes in an entirely different way to ensure that, for the most part, there's enough funding to keep everything running and to keep expanding.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't see how it's at the expense of anywhere, that would cover all local transport across the country if that happens to only be buses it's still all covered.

Large parts of the country increasingly have no useful bus service at all.
Including surprisingly urbanised areas like towns etc.

 

[renegademaster]

It is, because the English funding position means those services are all being run on a shoestring, and many are financially unsustainable as it is. The German system uses local and national taxes in an entirely different way to ensure that, for the most part, there's enough funding to keep everything running and to keep expanding.

The Germany system involved a ton of subsidy from the bundes government to all the state and local transport orgs, I assume any British version would do the same. The £2 ticket involved a lot of extra cash being pumped into busses

 

[yorksrob]

There is already a "go anywhere" ticket, valid for 14 days, albeit with peak restrictions. The 14 day all Line Rover.

It costs £866.00 for an adult, 26 of them and you will be pushing £22,500 or so.

You might give them a discount for buying the whole year, but its not going to be much under £15k

If the all line rover is to be any more than a track bashers wet dream, it needs to be issued along the lines of 4 in 8, 5 in ten etc.

As it is it's worthless for ordinary leisure activity.

 

[mike57]

As others have said, if you are talking about an all line anytime ticket then I dont see how it could work from a cost point of view. We dont have the IC - Regional segregation that Germany has.

If you are talking about an any mode, any operator area ticket then that could be very useful, but given the current state of public transport I dont see how it could be made to work.

Given the current state of ticketing in this country, and the fact that you end up having to split tickets to get the best deal on a significant number of longer journeys then to me any money and effort would be better spent getting to a much simpler but revenue similar system. The changes made recently are moving us in the opposite direction, I am thinking here the LNER single journey pricing, which is fine if your journey is LNER only, but as soon as you introduce a 2nd operator, e.g. Northern then it breaks down as without splitting your ticket end to end fares have increased significantly on some journeys.

 

[yorksrob]

Much fairer to just allocate the new subsidy (given we're probably talking a few tens of billions here) directly using a formula based on resident census population, and let the local government decide how to spend it.

Theoretically that sounds logical, however the rail network is vital for people making longer journeys, as illustrated by the growth in InterCity travel. There really needs to be a Nationwide competitive offer for rail travel, rather than disparate local schemes as you're missing out rail's USP.

 

[JonathanH]

Theoretically that sounds logical, however the rail network is vital for people making longer journeys, as illustrated by the growth in InterCity travel. There really needs to be a Nationwide competitive offer for rail travel, rather than disparate local schemes as you're missing out rail's USP.

Are you saying in your first sentence that the railway is doing fine for long distance leisure travellers without the need to reduce its revenue? Then, in the second sentence, trying to reduce its revenue?

 

[yorksrob]

Are you saying in your first sentence that the railway is doing fine for long distance leisure travellers without the need to reduce its revenue? Then, in the second sentence, trying to reduce its revenue?

Clearly not.

Look at the cost of returns on Cross Country for example and it is clear that the railway is not doing fine for long distance travel.

It is, however the main public transport option for long distance travel, which is why a major fares innovation needs to include it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Large parts of the country increasingly have no useful bus service at all.
Including surprisingly urbanised areas like towns etc.

Rural Cornwall seems to be better served than some parts of Milton Keynes, largely because the Council have stopped subsidising almost all fixed routes in favour of the hair brained and useless Via DRT system, aka a cheap taxi if you are lucky enough to get one.

This does create a fairness issue in taxing people then not providing them any useful service at all.

 

[ChrisC]

If the all line rover is to be any more than a track bashers wet dream, it needs to be issued along the lines of 4 in 8, 5 in ten etc.

As it is it's worthless for ordinary leisure activity.

If there was an All Line Rover offering that flexibility, especially something like the 8 Days in 15 offered by some other rovers, I would certainly make use of them a few times each year. I’m not a track basher, but want to travel by train more than the average leisure traveller. As I get older, I don’t want 14 consecutive days or even 7 travelling huge distances each day without a few rest days between. I also don’t want to feel that I have to keep moving on to a different base and would like to stay a few nights in the same hotel location. It’s no fun having to travel everywhere with a case especially on trains like Voyagers which have no luggage space where my case can be stored within sight.

 

[Mainline421]

If the all line rover is to be any more than a track bashers wet dream, it needs to be issued along the lines of 4 in 8, 5 in ten etc.

As it is it's worthless for ordinary leisure activity.

A 14 day ALR is already about the cost of 5 long distance returns. Not a leisure activity, but I've heard of them being used for book tours.

 

[RT4038]

Rural Cornwall seems to be better served than some parts of Milton Keynes, largely because the Council have stopped subsidising almost all fixed routes in favour of the hair brained and useless Via DRT system, aka a cheap taxi if you are lucky enough to get one.

This does create a fairness issue in taxing people then not providing them any useful service at all.

How so? You frequently espouse the principle of local democracy and have frequently stated that local authorities should have more freedom to raise revenue and spend on what their elected representatives think their voters want. You must be careful what you wish for, because this freedom works the other way too, not spending the money on what you or any other individual (a minority) want it spent on. Of course, having this freedom for local authorities will inevitably result in disparities between local authority areas - in fact the design ensures it - and 'fairness' comparisons are just not appropriate.

Of course, services in rural Cornwall are better due to being in an depressed, experimental, area where a huge wadge of cash has been thrown at buses by central govt. Whether this has been spent wisely can be widely debated. Milton Keynes is a much more affluent area and if the democratically elected local authority doesn't want to spend any money on public transport, or want to spend it on a particular type of service, (there being virtually no statutory responsibility in this field) then presumably so be it.

Or perhaps this local democracy system is not the best way as far as public transport is concerned......

 

[yorksrob]

If there was an All Line Rover offering that flexibility, especially something like the 8 Days in 15 offered by some other rovers, I would certainly make use of them a few times each year. I’m not a track basher, but want to travel by train more than the average leisure traveller. As I get older, I don’t want 14 consecutive days or even 7 travelling huge distances each day without a few rest days between. I also don’t want to feel that I have to keep moving on to a different base and would like to stay a few nights in the same hotel location. It’s no fun having to travel everywhere with a case especially on trains like Voyagers which have no luggage space where my case can be stored within sight.

Indeed. There's a potential market of people who would be inclined to explore by train whilst doing other things. A certain M Portillo could be said to be their standard bearer.

A 14 day ALR is already about the cost of 5 long distance returns. Not a leisure activity, but I've heard of them being used for book tours.

Would the travelling public think those five long distance returns to be particularly good value for money ?

I admit, I've forked out £260 quid for a super off-peak return to Cornwall via London. For a week's holiday and the freedom of not being tied down to particular trains, that seemed decent enough to me at the time. The ALR could potentially offer something more for leisure travellers, in the same way that the interrail provides something similar for people exploring the continent.

 

[Starmill]

Rural Cornwall seems to be better served than some parts of Milton Keynes, largely because the Council have stopped subsidising almost all fixed routes in favour of the hair brained and useless Via DRT system, aka a cheap taxi if you are lucky enough to get one.

This does create a fairness issue in taxing people then not providing them any useful service at all.

Indeed. In bus industry terms, Cornwall spend the big bucks in subsidy and cultivate the market they have. Obviously it does help that a minority of summer tourists also actually pay fares for the bus, which is something that sadly MK is never going to have, but they've built it up over the years and they've got something sustainable now with the subsidy funding they have. MK's lack of interest in spending decent money and total waste of time on MK connect means results are inevitably poor. All the while council tax levels aren't significantly different.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm still at a loss as to what we are hoping to achieve here. Is it to provide cheaper fares for rail enthusiasts to travel more than they do already, or to get car users to scrap their car and rely on public transport?

There is obviously some overlap between rail enthusiasts and car users, but there is also finite capacity, so we need to find a way of making using the railway more attractive for modal shift, whilst not encouraging too much discretionary travel. Giving someone the opportunity to travel long distance at lower cost is not the same as getting them to use public transport for their short journey to work or trip to the shops. Undoubtedly there is a need to reduce car use for short trips, which constitute a large amount of journeys.

How much modal shift has been achieved by the £2 cap on bus fares? Probably not much.

Is what we want to achieve something like the idea that if someone pays to commute daily in Manchester, they get free travel on Cornish railways when they go on holiday, but pay for the journey between Manchester and Cornwall, with the opposite applying for the user travelling daily between Truro and Falmouth?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm still at a loss as to what we are hoping to achieve here. Is it to provide cheaper fares for rail enthusiasts to travel more than they do already, or to get car users to scrap their car and rely on public transport?

There is obviously some overlap between rail enthusiasts and car users, but there is also finite capacity, so we need to find a way of making using the railway more attractive for modal shift, whilst not encouraging too much discretionary travel. Giving someone the opportunity to travel long distance at lower cost is not the same as getting them to use public transport for their short journey to work or trip to the shops. Undoubtedly there is a need to reduce car use for short trips, which constitute a large amount of journeys.

How much modal shift has been achieved by the £2 cap on bus fares? Probably not much.

Not everything is about modal shift or car users.

The offers in Europe are about getting people out and about spending in the economy, whether they own a car or not, as well as providing an alternative to motorists.

 

[JonathanH]

Not everything is about modal shift or car users.

Why not? That is surely the most pressing need.

It suits you for it not to be about modal shift. (It suits me as well if truth be told.) However, the market with better growth prospects and longer term benefits is that driven by modal shift.

The offers in Europe are about getting people out and about spending in the economy, whether they own a car or not, as well as providing an alternative to motorists.

Why not spend the money in your local economy instead? Isnt that better in the long run?

 

[yorksrob]

Why not? That is surely the most pressing need.

It suits you for it not to be about modal shift. (It suits me as well if truth be told.) However, the market with better growth prospects and longer term benefits is that driven by modal shift.


Why not spend the money in your local economy instead? Isnt that better in the long run?

In that case, why is it important to get motorists travelling about on trains when they could be spending in their local economy instead as well ? Who's to say that these motorists journeys are more valuable to the economy than someone who doesn't drive.

It's a moot point as I don't think anybody seriously wants to go back to a medieval life of never going further than the next village. Quite apart from that, we have a beautiful country and we should want our citizens to benefit from and feel pride from exploring it.

 

[RT4038]

Indeed. In bus industry terms, Cornwall spend the big bucks in subsidy and cultivate the market they have. Obviously it does help that a minority of summer tourists also actually pay fares for the bus, which is something that sadly MK is never going to have, but they've built it up over the years and they've got something sustainable now with the subsidy funding they have. MK's lack of interest in spending decent money and total waste of time on MK connect means results are inevitably poor. All the while council tax levels aren't significantly different.

Cornwall spend big bucks in subsidy because they received a huge , in bus industry terms, grant from Central Government to do it. To be fair, I don't think MK has, so has no opportunity to spend 'decent money' even if they wanted to. Funding their statutory responsibilities will see to that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2023 ==

It's a moot point as I don't think anybody seriously wants to go back to a medieval life of never going further than the next village.

I don't think the absence of a European style cheap train ticket offer is going to bring about a return to medieval patterns of travel in the UK. Hyperbole. Money can be just as easily spent in the local(ish) economy - it doesn't need to spent by subsidising long distance travel for the sake of travelling.

Quite apart from that, we have a beautiful country and we should want our citizens to benefit from and feel pride from exploring it.

But the citizens don't need subsidising to that kind of level to benefit from it either. Pay the normal price and travel less often, if necessary.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think the absence of a European style cheap train ticket offer is going to bring about a return to medieval patterns of travel in the UK. Hyperbole. Money can be just as easily spent in the local(ish) economy - it doesn't need to spent by subsidising long distance travel for the sake of travelling.


But the citizens don't need subsidising to that kind of level to benefit from it either. Pay the normal price and travel less often, if necessary.

There are clearly large numbers of people on the margins who have little disposable income to get out and about.

A better fare offer (maybe something more like a Bahncard) combined with the £2 bus fair would together make a pretty decent public transport offering nationwide.

Ok, it might seem frivolous to the Victorian mill owners contingent amongst us.

 

[JonathanH]

There are clearly large numbers of people on the margins who have little disposable income to get out and about.

A better fare offer (maybe something more like a Bahncard) combined with the £2 bus fair would together make a pretty decent public transport offering nationwide.

By all means offer people who have fallen on bad times access to travel, but proposals that provide reduced travel costs if you consume a lot of it is not the way to do that.