Ticket irregularity report

[glasgowniteowl]

So therefore should I get back in touch and refuse to pay on these grounds?

Again it's all down to how you want to proceed, as I said above, are you willing to go to court over this matter, as that's what's at risk if you decide not to pay within the 21 days, how high that risk is what's debatable and no-one can make the decision for you, a refusal to pay and the 21 days running out may mean you lose the opportunity of the out of court settlement and it could proceed to court how successful that would be would be debatable, how much time and money are you prepared to invest to fight a court case that's what you and you alone need to consider

 

[Yossi]

I am going to email them tomorrow and attach my original ticket ( which let me through the barriers in Edinburgh) and the one that the ticket inspector said wasn’t valid even though part of journey was + didn’t explain how much it would actually be for the mile I had travelled without a ticket
Am I right though that I won’t get taken to court as it was in scotland I didn’t have ticket but in England I did
Thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Am I right though that I won’t get taken to court as it was in scotland I didn’t have ticket but in England I did

This isn't quite true. You didn't have a valid ticket to Berwick. Berwick is in England so you didn't have a valid ticket in England from the border to Berwick.

The difficulty we have got in advising you is that your lack of ticket was discovered while the train was still in Scotland (although I think after the train had left its last Scottish calling point, so it was inevitable that you would travel into England). We simply don't know enough about how precisely English and Scottish law interact with ticket checks at that particular point.

Various people have said it is up to you as to whether to fight this (and either walk away without paying anything or face a fine and costs amounting to several hundred pounds) or pay up now (and know that you have to pay a couple of hundred pounds). They are of course right, but my very definite advice would be to pay up now and walk away. Your 'but I was in Scotland' argument, it seems to me, is one that would at the very least be complicated and time-consuming to put across. If you were to employ a lawyer to help, it would also be expensive.

I strongly suggest cutting your losses, paying up and leaving this matter behind you.

 

[Danberto]

In terms of validity, your ticket Edinburgh-Berwick was not valid on the train you were on; your ticket Berwick-Alnmouth was valid on the train you were on. The consequence of traveling without a valid ticket is complicated as there are differing legal systems in England & Scotland and there are differences of opinion as a result of this.

As has been previously stated, specialist legal advice would be required as to the England/Scotland part of the Edinburgh-Berwick part of the journey.

 

[Yossi]

In terms of validity, your ticket Edinburgh-Berwick was not valid on the train you were on; your ticket Berwick-Alnmouth was valid on the train you were on. The consequence of traveling without a valid ticket is complicated as there are differing legal systems in England & Scotland and there are differences of opinion as a result of this.

As has been previously stated, specialist legal advice would be required as to the England/Scotland part of the Edinburgh-Berwick part of the journey.

I will state this in my email to them and see how they respond, they didn’t even give me the chance to show my ticket’s before they fined me

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

In terms of validity, your ticket Edinburgh-Berwick was not valid on the train you were on; your ticket Berwick-Alnmouth was valid on the train you were on. The consequence of traveling without a valid ticket is complicated as there are differing legal systems in England & Scotland and there are differences of opinion as a result of this.

As has been previously stated, specialist legal advice would be required as to the England/Scotland part of the Edinburgh-Berwick part of the journey.

Tha

This isn't quite true. You didn't have a valid ticket to Berwick. Berwick is in England so you didn't have a valid ticket in England from the border to Berwick.

The difficulty we have got in advising you is that your lack of ticket was discovered while the train was still in Scotland (although I think after the train had left its last Scottish calling point, so it was inevitable that you would travel into England). We simply don't know enough about how precisely English and Scottish law interact with ticket checks at that particular point.

Various people have said it is up to you as to whether to fight this (and either walk away without paying anything or face a fine and costs amounting to several hundred pounds) or pay up now (and know that you have to pay a couple of hundred pounds). They are of course right, but my very definite advice would be to pay up now and walk away. Your 'but I was in Scotland' argument, it seems to me, is one that would at the very least be complicated and time-consuming to put across. If you were to employ a lawyer to help, it would also be expensive.

I strongly suggest cutting your losses, paying up and leaving this matter behind you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

I will state this in my email to them and see how they respond, they didn’t even give me the chance to show my ticket’s before they fined me

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==


Tha

This isn't quite true. You didn't have a valid ticket to Berwick. Berwick is in England so you didn't have a valid ticket in England from the border to Berwick.

The difficulty we have got in advising you is that your lack of ticket was discovered while the train was still in Scotland (although I think after the train had left its last Scottish calling point, so it was inevitable that you would travel into England). We simply don't know enough about how precisely English and Scottish law interact with ticket checks at that particular point.

Various people have said it is up to you as to whether to fight this (and either walk away without paying anything or face a fine and costs amounting to several hundred pounds) or pay up now (and know that you have to pay a couple of hundred pounds). They are of course right, but my very definite advice would be to pay up now and walk away. Your 'but I was in Scotland' argument, it seems to me, is one that would at the very least be complicated and time-consuming to put across. If you were to employ a lawyer to help, it would also be expensive.

I strongly suggest cutting your losses, paying up and leaving this matter behind you.

Thank you for advice I will take this in mind

 

[Cantab26]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

These are original tickets, I change journey as had to drive from aberdeen to Edinburgh for emergency from work so bought the 2nd ticket, I missed the train + got the nxt one going to alnmouth which was transpennine but obviously don’t no anything about routes

To summarise:

Your first set of tickets
Aberdeen to Berwick Advance single, departing 1452
Berwick to Alnmouth Anytime single, valid on Transpennine Express services only

Due to a change of plans, you drove from Aberdeen to Edinburgh.


Your replacement ticket
Edinburgh Park to Alnmouth Advance single, departing Edinburgh Park at 1646 and Edinburgh at 1707

Questions
Why did you purchase this replacement ticket from Edinburgh Park and not Edinburgh?

Why did you not catch the 1707 train from Edinburgh to Alnmouth?

Why did you not purchase a new ticket before boarding the 1734 Transpennine Express service from Edinburgh to Alnmouth?

 

[WesternLancer]

I feel very sorry for the OP here, one of may passengers not 100% au fait with the (seemingly to many people) complex UK rail ticketing system and being, at some level anyway, caught out by it.

Not in anyway wishing to be rude or unhelpful to the OP - but my hunch is that without a full understanding of UK rail tickets, the associated laws and the different laws that apply in scotland and england to these matters, it would not be wise for the OP to let this go to court and try to argue it out there, and risk losing and the consequences of that (bigger financial penalty), nor do I assume the OP will wish to incur the costs of paying someone (a solicitor) who does know enough about those laws to win the case.

With all that in mind I also fear the 'least worst option' is to cut losses and pay the sum.

Probably another passenger who will in future seek to avoid travel by train when they have the chance....

 

[Cantab26]

I will state this in my email to them and see how they respond, they didn’t even give me the chance to show my ticket’s before they fined me

Please answer my three questions before you contact Transpennine again about this.

 

[30907]

So first ticket is Aberdeen to Berwick on LNER and connections

I will bow to others knowledge (who will be along shortly) on what and connections means if miss first train.

It might mean that the ticket would be accepted on a connection later in the day.
However, this is academic, as no connection is involved in this case - the whole journey is done on the 1452 train.

Berwick to Alnmouth Anytime single, valid on Transpennine Express services only

Due to a change of plans, you drove from Aberdeen to Edinburgh.

Your replacement ticket
Edinburgh Park to Alnmouth Advance single, departing Edinburgh Park at 1646 and Edinburgh at 1707

Questions
Why did you purchase this replacement ticket from Edinburgh Park and not Edinburgh?

The OP expected to travel from Edinburgh Park (and did so?)

Why did you not catch the 1707 train from Edinburgh to Alnmouth?

They have implied they missed the connecting train at EDP.

 

[Cantab26]

It might mean that the ticket would be accepted on a connection later in the day.
However, this is academic, as no connection is involved in this case - the whole journey is done on the 1452 train.

The OP expected to travel from Edinburgh Park (and did so?)

They have implied they missed the connecting train at EDP.

This type of speculation is not helpful.

I need the OP to answer the three questions directly in order to provide effective advice.

 

[Yossi]

To summarise:

Your first set of tickets
Aberdeen to Berwick Advance single, departing 1452
Berwick to Alnmouth Anytime single, valid on Transpennine Express services only

Due to a change of plans, you drove from Aberdeen to Edinburgh.


Your replacement ticket
Edinburgh Park to Alnmouth Advance single, departing Edinburgh Park at 1646 and Edinburgh at 1707

Questions
Why did you purchase this replacement ticket from Edinburgh Park and not Edinburgh?

Why did you not catch the 1707 train from Edinburgh to Alnmouth?

Why did you not purchase a new ticket before boarding the 1734 Transpennine Express service from Edinburgh to Alnmouth?

I left the boss’s car in Edinburgh park, missed the 1707, thought my original ticket would cover me either way

 

[Cantab26]

I left the boss’s car in Edinburgh park, missed the 1707, thought my original ticket would cover me either way

Thank you.

In light of these confirmations, the position is as follows:

1. If you boarded a train other than the 1646 at Edinburgh Park then you committed a criminal offence in Scotland under the Railway Byelaws because you did not have a valid ticket and there are ticket purchasing facilities available at this station.
2. Ditto the 1734 train at Edinburgh.
3. As a result of your refusal to purchase a ticket for your journey when inspected at or near Dunbar (noting that you had already passed two opportunities to pay by this point) there is evidence which could be led to proof of an intention to avoid paying the fare for the journey which you made on the 1734 train between Edinburgh and Berwick.
4. Importantly, this would constitute an offence in both Scotland and England under section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 because you have travelled on both sides of the border without having first paid your fare and it would be open to the court to find that an intention to avoid payment was a continuing one, especially given that you have not actually paid the fare due subsequently either.
5. Realistically, prosecution in Scotland is highly unlikely, but it is open to Transpennine to bring a private prosecution in England and this would not in my view be legally incompetent or an abuse of process on the available facts.

In these circumstances, I would recommend that you pay the sum demanded (including the amount in respect of administrative costs) before the stated deadline so as to avoid a prosecution being commenced against you.

 

[Yossi]

Thanks to everyone who has assisted me today, I will go with paying even though it’s harsh especially the fees but advice from senior members will be the best advice I could get, a costly honest mistake though

 

[skyhigh]

a costly honest mistake though

Just general advice for the future, unless you are 100% sure you're in the right, if you're offered the chance to just pay the fare due there and then (as it seems you were) it's generally better to do that.

You can then if necessary ask for advice here if your ticket actually was valid and if so get assistance on claiming a refund.

 

[Yossi]

Just general advice for the future, unless you are 100% sure you're in the right, if you're offered the chance to just pay the fare due there and then (as it seems you were) it's generally better to do that.

You can then if necessary ask for advice here if your ticket actually was valid and if so get assistance on claiming a refund.

Thank you I will, can I get a refund on my unused tickets to put towards my fine?

 

[Cantab26]

Thank you I will, can I get a refund on my unused tickets to put towards my fine?

The Advance tickets are not refundable.

The Anytime from Berwick to Alnmouth is theoretically refundable, but if there is an administration fee for the refund (depends on where you bought it) then it would probably not be worth it.

 

[Yossi]

Cheers, im so pleased I joined this forum as it’s been very helpful, thanks to everyone who has advised me today

 

[voyagerdude220]

Just out of interest- why did you refuse to pay onboard the train? I'm guessing it would have been much cheaper to do so.

 

[Yossi]

Just out of interest- why did you refuse to pay onboard the train? I'm guessing it would have been much cheaper to do so.

Because I thought I had a ticket I could use, only been travelling on trains since mar/apr wasn’t aware of all the rules only using certain trains etc

 

[SuspectUsual]

Because I thought I had a ticket I could use, only been travelling on trains since mar/apr wasn’t aware of all the rules only using certain trains etc

OK, I can see how thinking your ticket was valid might explain how you found yourself in that situation, but presumably when the conductor told you it wasn’t valid and offered you the opportunity to buy a new ticket, your lack of awareness of the intricacies of the ticketing system would have led you to think “hmmmmm, it’s this person’s job, they probably know the rules better than me”?

It seems a little perverse to blame lack of knowledge of the system for your predicament but not then accept what the conductor said.

Anyway, as others have said, paying up is probably the least bad option now

 

[voyagerdude220]

OK, I can see how thinking your ticket was valid might explain how you found yourself in that situation, but presumably when the conductor told you it wasn’t valid and offered you the opportunity to buy a new ticket, your lack of awareness of the intricacies of the ticketing system would have led you to think “hmmmmm, it’s this person’s job, they probably know the rules better than me”?

It seems a little perverse to blame lack of knowledge of the system for your predicament but not then accept what the conductor said.

Anyway, as others have said, paying up is probably the least bad option now

That's precisely the conclusion I got to.