Ticket irregularity report

[Yossi]

First time offence had a ticket but got on wrong train from Aberdeen to home, conductor said I would get arrested as I refused to pay so I took the ticket report then got a letter to explain my side which I did plus apology now hit with a 50 pound payment plus 135 admin fee which I think is a lot of money for one letter which I responded to straight the way
Can I appeal this or not as it’s not a penalty fine

 

[island]

Hi there, we'll need a bit more information to help. When replying please use the same numbering for ease of reference.

1. What station were you travelling to?
2. Where were you spoken to by an officer?
3. What train company were you travelling with?
4. Was your ticket for an earlier train than you were on, or a later train?
5. You say you received a "ticket report" from the ticket officer at the time of your interaction? Please post a photo of it if you still have it.
6. Please post a photo of the letters you received from the train company so that we can understand what stage proceedings have reached.

When posting photos of documents it is advisable to block out or cover any personal details which might be on said documents.

 

[Yossi]

Hi there, we'll need a bit more information to help. When replying please use the same numbering for ease of reference.

1. What station were you travelling to?
2. Where were you spoken to by an officer?
3. What train company were you travelling with?
4. Was your ticket for an earlier train than you were on, or a later train?
5. You say you received a "ticket report" from the ticket officer at the time of your interaction? Please post a photo of it if you still have it.
6. Please post a photo of the letters you received from the train company so that we can understand what stage proceedings have reached.

When posting photos of documents it is advisable to block out or cover any personal details which might be on said documents.

Travelling from Edinburgh to alnmouth got on tpe obviously later train

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Travelling from Edinburgh to alnmouth got on tpe obviously later train

Dunbar was where I was spoken to

 

[Kite159]

You might want to edit those attachments to remove personal details as your address/name is visible

 

[AlterEgo]

And was your ticket an Advance ticket?

 

[Yossi]

You might want to edit those attachments to remove personal details as your address/name is visible

I’m new to this how do I do it

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And was your ticket an Advance ticket?

I’m new to this how do I do it

Sorted, thanks

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And was your ticket an Advance ticket?

I had 2 tickets, one from aberdeen to alnmouth, then my plans changed so booked Edinburgh to alnmouth didn’t use original ticket bought the 2nd and conductor sed either wasn’t valid I didn’t even use my 1st one

 

[John R]

I think we're going to need a lot more precise information from you if contributors here are to help determine the extent of the situation you are in, and give the best advice. So starting from the top, what was your original journey (including train times), what ticket did you hold (including cost), and so on.

 

[Yossi]

Travelling from Edinburgh to alnmouth got on tpe obviously later train

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Dunbar was where I was spoken to

I think we're going to need a lot more precise information from you if contributors here are to help determine the extent of the situation you are in, and give the best advice. So starting from the top, what was your original journey (including train times), what ticket did you hold (including cost), and so on.

Thanks I will gather all the information and repost, I’m not the greatest with technology or being in trouble so maybe a while but appreciate all the responses

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Think I have all the info thts needed now

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Looks like you had multiple tickets covering same leg of journey

Could you clarify exactly what tickets were held and, you have 2 advances covering what looks like the same part of the journey and there's also mention of an anytime ticket which looks like part of a split ticket, this could have some bearing

So we need to know exactly what the tickets were, what times of train they were for and what service you eventually travelled on

 

[scrapy]

I'm not an expert on Scottish law but I didn't think TPE could bring about a private prosecution on offences in Scotland?

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not an expert on Scottish law but I didn't think TPE could bring about a private prosecution on offences in Scotland?

The ticketing offence was committed in England too, so I'm unsure this is an avenue we can realistically go down.

 

[Snow1964]

We need to see the tickets, (you have uploaded expense receipt), as these will show exactly the type of ticket.
There might be multiple tickets.
The tickets will show type, and possibly specific train.
The tickets might have been emailed and as attachments

Also what time train did you actually travel on, departure and arrival station, and arrival time. This might be different to what you originally planned.

 

[Danberto]

What appers to have happened so far -
The TPE member of staff has concluded you were travelling without a valid ticket, (if you held advance tickets, they are not normally valid for anything other than the specific train they were purchased for).
TPE wrote to you & you wrote back,
As a consequence of the correspondence, they offered you an 'out of court settlement',
You are questioning the 'admin fee'.

You could communicate with TPE and ask them to reconsider the size of the 'admin fee'. They may do this but be aware that they may decide to withdraw the offer
and prosecute you at court. Should this happen and you are found to be guilty I think you would end up paying more than what you are being asked for at present.

Where people post how much they are charged as an admin fee in fare evasion cases that are settled before reaching court, it varies depending on the Train Operating Company (TOC) but it is usually within the £100-£200 range.

 

[Yossi]

Looks like you had multiple tickets covering same leg of journey

Could you clarify exactly what tickets were held and, you have 2 advances covering what looks like the same part of the journey and there's also mention of an anytime ticket which looks like part of a split ticket, this could have some bearing

So we need to know exactly what the tickets were, what times of train they were for and what service you eventually travelled on

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These are original tickets, I change journey as had to drive from aberdeen to Edinburgh for emergency from work so bought the 2nd ticket, I missed the train + got the nxt one going to alnmouth which was transpennine but obviously don’t no anything about routes

 

[glasgowniteowl]

You look to have been incredibly unlucky on two counts, you have just missed your original train at Edinburgh by 4 minutes, the 1730 departure from edinburgh was the train that left Aberdeen at 14.52

Next you actually had a ticket on the transpennine train you were caught on that was valid on it but just further on its journey from berwick where you were supposed to connect on to it

Unfortunately it leaves you in a weak position, you can either pay what they are asking or risk it going to court and potentially getting a conviction, now there may be debate on what action could be taken by tpe due to offence being detected in scotland, being a cross border service, still an opportunity to alight prior to reaching an english station, where any court action should occur etc

It will boil down to the fact that is a potential conviction and potentially higher fine worth the hassle over the admin fee, or just chalk it up as an expensive experience

 

[Snow1964]

So first ticket is Aberdeen to Berwick on LNER and connections
Second ticket is Anytime Berwick to Alnmouth on TPE

second one is clearly valid on that date on TPE from Berwick

I will bow to others knowledge (who will be along shortly) on what and connections means if miss first train. I see the TIR was raised on a train (which you say was TPE) at or near Dunbar.

 

[Danberto]

It has become a bit clearer.

I think the Aberdeen-Berwick Advance ticket was only valid on the LNER service, the Berwick-Almouth portion was valid on the TPE service. Unfortunately when you were checked although you were on a TPE service, you should have been on the LNER service thereby making the Aberdeen-Berwick ticket invalid on the TPE train. If you had been checked after Berwick, your travel on a TPE service using the TPE Berwick-Almouth ticket would have been okay.

 

[Yossi]

So basically then I’m going to have to pay up, even though I had bought tickets not defrauding anyone to travel without a ticket just genuinely unlucky, still reckon 135 expenses is ridiculous
Do you think I could ask them to reduce it I’m a single parent

 

[AlterEgo]

It has become a bit clearer.

I think the Aberdeen-Berwick Advance ticket was only valid on the LNER service, the Berwick-Almouth portion was valid on the TPE service. Unfortunately when you were checked although you were on a TPE service, you should have been on the LNER service thereby making the Aberdeen-Berwick ticket invalid on the TPE train. If you had been checked after Berwick, your travel on a TPE service using the TPE Berwick-Almouth ticket would have been okay.

But we now know the OP did not commit any ticket irregularity in England, as their ticket was valid from Berwick. They were checked at Dunbar, in Scotland. Hence no offence has taken place in England and they cannot prosecute the matter in an English court.

Private prosecutions aren't a thing in Scotland so TPE are just chancing their arm here.

 

[Yossi]

So first ticket is Aberdeen to Berwick on LNER and connections
Second ticket is Anytime Berwick to Alnmouth on TPE

second one is clearly valid on that date on TPE from Berwick

I will bow to others knowledge (who will be along shortly) on what and connections means if miss first train. I see the TIR was raised on a train (which you say was TPE) at or near Dunbar.

Yes think I’m done for and gonna have to pay up, wish I’d just paid the ticket bloke now but he sed I could dispute it

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But we now know the OP did not commit any ticket irregularity in England, as their ticket was valid from Berwick. They were checked at Dunbar, in Scotland. Hence no offence has taken place in England and they cannot prosecute the matter in an English court.

Private prosecutions aren't a thing in Scotland so TPE are just chancing their arm here.

So therefore do I write back to them again disputing this and showing my tickets as proof

 

[Danberto]

@AlterEgo I merely sought to work out what TPE did, not whether it was legal or not. I don't know what applies in Scotland compared to England & Wales. If no ticket irregularity was commited then the OP would not be subject to the out of court settlement?

 

[fandroid]

But we now know the OP did not commit any ticket irregularity in England, as their ticket was valid from Berwick. They were checked at Dunbar, in Scotland. Hence no offence has taken place in England and they cannot prosecute the matter in an English court.

Private prosecutions aren't a thing in Scotland so TPE are just chancing their arm here.

Berwick station is in England, so there would have been about one mile of ticketless travel governed by English and Welsh law. There might be historical cases where Scottish law has been found to be appropriate north of Berwick station, but you'd probably need a KC's opinion to verify that!

 

[Yossi]

Help, I’m so confused now do I pay or not ‍♀️

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Help, I’m so confused now do I pay or not ‍♀️

Basically boils down to whether you are willing to risk a conviction and higher fine and hassle of attending court to argue over the potential legalities of whether the rail firm is taking you to court in the correct country

 

[crablab]

These are original tickets, I change journey as had to drive from aberdeen to Edinburgh for emergency from work so bought the 2nd ticket, I missed the train + got the nxt one going to alnmouth which was transpennine but obviously don’t no anything about routes

To clarify:
- you originally had tickets from Aberdeen to Berwick (Advance) and Berwick to Alnmouth (Anytime)
- you then changed your journey and needed to start from Edinburgh
- you then bought another ticket from Edinburgh to Alnmouth (from the screenshots, an Advance on ScotRail/CrossCountry)
- but instead of following that itinerary you got on the (direct) TPE service

Was there a particular reason you chose to take the trains that you did? I'm just wondering if you missed the train at Edinburgh or if you asked staff for some assistance etc.

 

[30907]

Yes think I’m done for and gonna have to pay up, wish I’d just paid the ticket bloke now but he sed I could dispute it

Unfortunately, you chose to pay a cheaper fare from Edinburgh Park, which was valid on specific trains only, so you have broken that rule.
You were offered the chance to pay the correct walk-up fare (which I make to be £16.10 as you had a ticket from Berwick*) and declined.
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=EDP&dest=BWK&period=20230903.
Cross-country are therefore entitled to pursue this.

So therefore do I write back to them again disputing this and showing my tickets as proof

I think you have grounds for challenging the fare demanded, which is 2-3 times more than it should be.
The admin fee is on the high side, but I don't think you will get anywhere with that.
(I presume there was a previous letter to which you gave a reply which effectively admitted you had got on the XC train with an invalid ticket?)

You could therefore write back saying that you had a valid ticket from Berwick to Alnmouth (attach it, but no others) and therefore the fare owing is from Edinburgh Park to Berwick only, and request them to amend the settlement fee accordingly.

However, you need to make the letter apologetic as you were in the wrong.

As for the question of jurisdiction, I would only pursue that after taking legal advice.

BTW - I presume you missed the 1646 train at EDP? Is that correct?

(*for reference, the walk-up fare to Alnmouth was £25.80, only £4 more than you actually paid )

 

[island]

Berwick station is in England, so there would have been about one mile of ticketless travel governed by English and Welsh law. There might be historical cases where Scottish law has been found to be appropriate north of Berwick station, but you'd probably need a KC's opinion to verify that!

But the passenger did not board a train between the border and Berwick nor (it seems) were they asked to present a ticket at that time. So no byelaw offence has been committed. And TPE would inevitably struggle to prove intent for a Regulation of Railways Act offence.

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Basically boils down to whether you are willing to risk a conviction and higher fine and hassle of attending court to argue over the potential legalities of whether the rail firm is taking you to court in the correct country

This is a good summary.

It appears TPE cannot take the OP to court in England, as they only committed an offence in Scotland.

Private prosecutions are (effectively) illegal in Scotland, so they cannot take the OP to court there either.

That is not to say TPE won't try to do one of those things, and if they were to do so, it would likely necessitate a court appearance and/or a solicitor bill to get it sorted out.

The OP can make this all go away by paying the £186.50, or they can offer a lower amount, or they can wait and see what steps TPE takes next. Normally, settlement offers aren't negotiable, but given that TPE isn't entitled to prosecute the OP, there's a chance a cheque for £51.50 (which does remain due) and a well written letter might bring an end to the matter.

 

[fandroid]

Querying the fare owed and presenting a copy of the Berwick to Alnmouth ticket to back that up, might (might!) make them appreciate that the offence and its discovery were in Scotland, so their ability to actually prosecute would be extremely tenuous. They might then accept a counter offer of say £100 total.

 

[Yossi]

Thanks everyone I will mull this over and decide my best options I definitely don’t want to go to court I have never been dishonest or in trouble in my lifetime it was a genuine mistake and unfortunately I missed my train which was my fault

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

But the passenger did not board a train between the border and Berwick nor (it seems) were they asked to present a ticket at that time. So no byelaw offence has been committed. And TPE would inevitably struggle to prove intent for a Regulation of Railways Act offence.

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This is a good summary.

It appears TPE cannot take the OP to court in England, as they only committed an offence in Scotland.

Private prosecutions are (effectively) illegal in Scotland, so they cannot take the OP to court there either.

That is not to say TPE won't try to do one of those things, and if they were to do so, it would likely necessitate a court appearance and/or a solicitor bill to get it sorted out.

The OP can make this all go away by paying the £186.50, or they can offer a lower amount, or they can wait and see what steps TPE takes next. Normally, settlement offers aren't negotiable, but given that TPE isn't entitled to prosecute the OP, there's a chance a cheque for £51.50 (which does remain due) and a well written letter might bring an end to the matter.

Any help with a well written letter appreciated thanks

 

[Yossi]

To clarify:
- you originally had tickets from Aberdeen to Berwick (Advance) and Berwick to Alnmouth (Anytime)
- you then changed your journey and needed to start from Edinburgh
- you then bought another ticket from Edinburgh to Alnmouth (from the screenshots, an Advance on ScotRail/CrossCountry)
- but instead of following that itinerary you got on the (direct) TPE service

Was there a particular reason you chose to take the trains that you did? I'm just wondering if you missed the train at Edinburgh or if you asked staff for some assistance etc.

Missed my original train

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

To clarify:
- you originally had tickets from Aberdeen to Berwick (Advance) and Berwick to Alnmouth (Anytime)
- you then changed your journey and needed to start from Edinburgh
- you then bought another ticket from Edinburgh to Alnmouth (from the screenshots, an Advance on ScotRail/CrossCountry)
- but instead of following that itinerary you got on the (direct) TPE service

Was there a particular reason you chose to take the trains that you did? I'm just wondering if you missed the train at Edinburgh or if you asked staff for some assistance etc.

But we now know the OP did not commit any ticket irregularity in England, as their ticket was valid from Berwick. They were checked at Dunbar, in Scotland. Hence no offence has taken place in England and they cannot prosecute the matter in an English court.

Private prosecutions aren't a thing in Scotland so TPE are just chancing their arm here.

So therefore should I get back in touch and refuse to pay on these grounds?