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4SUBs - flag started

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Regeff

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I'm old enough to remember 4SUBs in service - I was looking at photos of some just now, which brought back some memories. I has always struck me as odd, that the right up to the end, they didn't have bells for the guard to signal to the driver but relied on green flags or lamps for the "right". It must have been very hard to judge when to give the green flag or lamp, especially on a busy rush hour train. What happened if someone tried to board after the "right" had been given - was the driver expected to look back for a red signal from the guard? I saw plenty of hairy moments when people tried to board moving later built slam-door trains at somewhere like London Bridge, but a least with a starting bell it was easy for the guard to give the one bell signal to stop the train.

I know that flag starts weren't confined to the SUBs (and earlier EMUs) - loco-hauled trains were routinely flag started in the days before central door locking, but that didn't seem quite so risky.
 
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Big Jumby 74

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Drivers would often look back to double check, but only if they were platform side of course, otherwise much whistle blowing and shouting by guard/platform staff, and if once on move and some xxxxx still tried to board dangerously, guards emergency brake. Crews had to have nerves of steel in those days, if you kept waiting for that one last straggler you'd never get away.
The platform gates at London termini were a good means of stopping those last minute dashers, much their annoyance no doubt.
 
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John Love NB

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Obviously as a Scottish Region guard I never worked a 4SUB, but with any busy train with slam-doors, even a DMU, stopping passengers getting on for long enough to get the train away could be very difficult. In early 1971, soon after decimalisation, I covered the porter's job at Lenzie station for a fortnight. On the early shift we had a booking clerk, so I didn't have to sell tickets, but even when the only thing I had to do was set up the train for the guard, it still wasn't easy at the busiest times. In the morning rush hour passengers would come over the footbridge in a constant stream. I would close the platform gate, but it had no lock on it, so very often passengers would just open it again. Yes it was easier at main stations where ticket collectors could keep the gates shut. I hated closing the platform gates in the face of passengers trying to board, especially as timekeeping was bad, so often we didn't know when the next train would actually come, but, if I had kept the train waiting till everybody who wanted to had got on, I'd have kept the train in the platform for over an hour, completely blocking the busy Edinburgh and Glasgow main line. That would probably have ended my railway career!

As a guard, I wouldn't close my door until the train had started to move, but then I'd close it quickly (as I didn't want to fall out). However I would then immediately open the droplight window in the door and continue to watch the platform until we were completely clear of it (or it was out of sight). If any emergency had arisen after I'd given the signal to start (whether by flag, lamp or bell/buzzer) I know I wouldn't have hesitated to apply the emergency brake; I didn't ever want to have a life on my conscience.

It's now over 40 years since I left the railway and a lot has changed. Much of it is for the better, but I'm not convinced it all is. Most of the trains on my local service now a worked by modern Class 385 EMUs. They have central locking so passengers cannot board after the doors have been closed. But there are still things I'm sure could be better. When I worked passenger trains it was always from a dedicated brake compartment with an in-swinging door that could be safely held open even after the train had started. Even with the door closed, and even with the very occasional ancient pre-nationalisation full brake, there was always a droplight window that I could open.

But with the 385s, the guard has no way to watch the platform after she's closed her door. And I don't know what sort of emergency brake she has either. (I hope she knows!) (I don't even know where the passenger emergency brake is on modern stock -- I suppose I should know! But I think it was easier when it alays was a chain painted red. It was always over the entrance doors. And it could always be reset by turning a "butterfly" at the end of the coach!) As for the driver, there's no way he can watch the platform before, or as he leaves -- the 385 cab doesn't have side windows. I thought cabs without side windows had been done away with in the 1930s!

Even 40+ years after leaving the railway, I still find myself "thinking railway". I still find myself involuntarily acknowledging an engine whistle by raising my hand above my head. On one recent occasion even when sitting in a carriage! And when I get off a train, I will often watch that the doors are safely closed before it departs. If I did spot something amiss, I would try to alert the guard, probably by raising both hands above my head in what was in my day the standard signal for a train to stop, in the absence of a red flag or lamp. (I hope that modern railway staff would still understand that.) But once the doors are closed, there's absolutely no way for me to alert the train crew, no matter how serious the emergency. The best I could do would be to walk (well maybe run) down the platform to the "Help Point", and try to get them to stop the train. By which time the train will be four or five miles away!

Surely it could be made safer! A droplight for the guard, and an openable side window for the driver surely aren't too much to ask. But they'll probably wait until a child falls between the train and the platform just after the doors have closed -- and neither the driver nor the guard can see what has happened.

I was primarily a freight guard, so passenger trains were always a bit of an exception for me. Getting an unfitted or partially fitted goods train, with no form of direct communication with the driver, to stop was another piece of fun entirely. You could try winding the van brake on and off, and you might succeed in attracting the driver's attention. But instead you might just succeed in breaking a coupling, leaving your brake van (with you in it) and the rear end of your train stranded in the middle of the section, hoping that the signalman in advance spots "Train passed without tail lamp", and takes appropriate action. I decided it was safer to follow a strategy that I'm dates well back into the 19th century -- get the signalmen and the signalling system to stop your train. I would write a message on a piece of paper -- quite likely the back page of an old Weekly Notice. I would then wrap the mesage round a piece of coal. As I approached the next signal box, I would give a series of short sharp blasts on my guard's whistle. Once I knew I had the signalman's attention, I would throw out the piece of coal, aiming it to land as near as possible to the signal box. I would then expect my train to be stopped at the next box (provided that that was what I had asked for in my message). I think I did this more than once, but I do remember throwing out such coal and paper message at Lochside (on a return working from Falkland Junction (Ayr) and then being stopped (as I expected) at Howwood, but I can't remember why I wanted my train stopped. No doubt I had a good reason at the time! I wonder what modern railway staff would make of such a method of communication.
 

Taunton

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I'm old enough to remember 4SUBs in service - I was looking at photos of some just now, which brought back some memories. I has always struck me as odd, that the right up to the end, they didn't have bells for the guard to signal to the driver but relied on green flags or lamps for the "right".
That was because they, unlike the EPBs shortly afterwards, they didn't have any low voltage/battery circuits at all. No rear red light (had to have an oil lamp). No saloon emergency lighting, in fact lighting was 650V DC bulbs, which if broken needed a CMEE fitter to change them who knew how to switch main circuits off.
 

Surreytraveller

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That was because they, unlike the EPBs shortly afterwards, they didn't have any low voltage/battery circuits at all. No rear red light (had to have an oil lamp). No saloon emergency lighting, in fact lighting was 650V DC bulbs, which if broken needed a CMEE fitter to change them who knew how to switch main circuits off.
Weren't they lower voltage bulbs wired in series?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm old enough to remember 4SUBs in service - I was looking at photos of some just now, which brought back some memories. I has always struck me as odd, that the right up to the end, they didn't have bells for the guard to signal to the driver but relied on green flags or lamps for the "right". It must have been very hard to judge when to give the green flag or lamp, especially on a busy rush hour train. What happened if someone tried to board after the "right" had been given - was the driver expected to look back for a red signal from the guard? I saw plenty of hairy moments when people tried to board moving later built slam-door trains at somewhere like London Bridge, but a least with a starting bell it was easy for the guard to give the one bell signal to stop the train.

I know that flag starts weren't confined to the SUBs (and earlier EMUs) - loco-hauled trains were routinely flag started in the days before central door locking, but that didn't seem quite so risky.
The guard would use the emergency brake. Or just let the passenger carry on - back in those days people took responsibility for their own actions
 

Taunton

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70 volt bulbs in strings of 10 I believe
Although the bulbs were in series, the cable for them was connected directly to the 650V, if you were working on getting the remnants of a smashed bulb out. And there would be (hopefully the right) 650V knife switch to turn the circuit off with first.

Electricians, you tell me, if one bulb was broken did the whole string go out, like with old Christmas tree lights?
 

Dai Corner

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Although the bulbs were in series, the cable for them was connected directly to the 650V, if you were working on getting the remnants of a smashed bulb out. And there would be (hopefully the right) 650V knife switch to turn the circuit off with first.

Electricians, you tell me, if one bulb was broken did the whole string go out, like with old Christmas tree lights?
If they were in series, then yes it would have been one out, all out.
 

contrex

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Electricians, you tell me, if one bulb was broken did the whole string go out, like with old Christmas tree lights?
Yes if one bulb failed open circuit then the others in the string went out. They would all go out when the train was momentarily gapped e.g. crossing pointwork, and they would noticeably dim when the driver took power to start away from a station or signal stop.
 

Taunton

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I seem to recall there were two strings, and two lights for each compartment. Open saloons (some SUBs didn't have any at all, being wholly compartment) had the cabling zig-zagged so alternate bulbs were on alternate sides of the coach.

There must have been a 650V bus down the train for lighting and heating, as the trailers did not have collector shoes.
 
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edwin_m

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I seem to recall there were two strings, and two lights for each compartment. Open saloons (some SUBs didn't have any at all, being wholly compartment) had the cabling zig-zagged so alternate bulbs were on alternate sides of the coach.

There must have been a 650V bus down the train for lighting and heating, as the trailers did not have collector shoes.
As far as I know all third rail EMUs had and have a bus linking all the shoes to reduce the risk of gapping.
 

Taunton

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Yes, reading that B&C document everything, including the multiple-unit control, on a SUB operated at 650V, whereas on SR express stock a motor generator gave 70V. This goes along with the comment above that SUB lights were in strings of 10, whereas the express stock probably used the same bulbs but wired differently.

The New York Subway moved on train controls from "High-V" to "Low-V" (I'm sure you get the distinction) from new trains in 1916. It's surprising that up to 35 years later the Southern was still building trains with the pioneer technology.
 

181

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I remember once seeing a guard nearly getting left behind on platform 10 at Clapham Junction. Presumably the curvature made it necssary to stand well back in order to see along the train and be visible to the driver.
 

Roger1973

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Were the later (I'm thinking 4EPB era) Southern EMU / DEMU built without guard to driver bells? I don't remember them not having it, but think I've seen photographs of these with a guard giving a flag start in regular service (not the kind of posed shot that involves someone waving a green flag) - am I remembering wrong, or would this have happened if the bell circuit failed?

I remember once seeing a guard nearly getting left behind on platform 10 at Clapham Junction. Presumably the curvature made it necssary to stand well back in order to see along the train and be visible to the driver.

Oops.

How did it work if the platform curve was so extreme that driver wouldn't have been able to see the guard? The down Sidcup / Hayes platform at Lewisham comes to mind - as I remember it, it was EPB generation rolling stock, and think by then guards tended to travel towards the middle of the train, but how would it have worked with previous generations of train, and (if I understand right) when the guard was expected to travel at the rear of the train? Would a member of platform staff have relayed a green flag / lamp to the driver?
 

4SubAsociation

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The 4SUB is 660 volts. Not 750 volts. A good post was posted on the Southern Electric Group on Facebook by Michael Harvey - SR line voltage was nominally 660v everywhere until the 1959-1962 Kent Coast and 1967 Bournemouth electrification schemes which were 750v nominal. 1936 type EMUS (SUB, BIL, HAL) were banned from those areas unless heating and lights were isolated. Once the SUBs and older stock on adjacent LT lines were gone, the way was clear to go to 750v overall.
 

Taunton

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Were the later (I'm thinking 4EPB era) Southern EMU / DEMU built without guard to driver bells?
The EPBs did have them from the go, all the low voltage auxiliaries, including of course the electric signalling to the air brake valves, hence "electro-pneumatic brake", were the big change. Structurally the two types were much the same, and indeed some SUB trailers were later converted to EPB ones.

Given this significant improvement all round, it's maybe surprising that once established there wasn't a mid-life overhaul to bring the SUBs up to EPB standard.
 

Gloster

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Up the creek
Were the later (I'm thinking 4EPB era) Southern EMU / DEMU built without guard to driver bells? I don't remember them not having it, but think I've seen photographs of these with a guard giving a flag start in regular service (not the kind of posed shot that involves someone waving a green flag) - am I remembering wrong, or would this have happened if the bell circuit failed?



Oops.

How did it work if the platform curve was so extreme that driver wouldn't have been able to see the guard? The down Sidcup / Hayes platform at Lewisham comes to mind - as I remember it, it was EPB generation rolling stock, and think by then guards tended to travel towards the middle of the train, but how would it have worked with previous generations of train, and (if I understand right) when the guard was expected to travel at the rear of the train? Would a member of platform staff have relayed a green flag / lamp to the driver?

I was never a Guard and got off the platform into the signal box as early as possible to avoid the pesky passengers, so I am remembering what little I retain from platform duties. Guards would have to use the flag or lamp if the buzzer was out of use, but some also used a whistle and flag as a none too subtle hint to passengers to board NOW. They would then use the buzzer to indicate to the driver that he could go.

Guards should know their route and at stations where curvature, bridges, etc.meant that drivers couldn’t see them clearly and there was no staff to pass the Right Away on to the driver, they would know to travel in an intermediate van. It is not as good as being at the rear, but it is a reasonable compromise.
 

Regeff

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Messages
53
Obviously as a Scottish Region guard I never worked a 4SUB, but with any busy train with slam-doors, even a DMU, stopping passengers getting on for long enough to get the train away could be very difficult. In early 1971, soon after decimalisation, I covered the porter's job at Lenzie station for a fortnight. On the early shift we had a booking clerk, so I didn't have to sell tickets, but even when the only thing I had to do was set up the train for the guard, it still wasn't easy at the busiest times. In the morning rush hour passengers would come over the footbridge in a constant stream. I would close the platform gate, but it had no lock on it, so very often passengers would just open it again. Yes it was easier at main stations where ticket collectors could keep the gates shut. I hated closing the platform gates in the face of passengers trying to board, especially as timekeeping was bad, so often we didn't know when the next train would actually come, but, if I had kept the train waiting till everybody who wanted to had got on, I'd have kept the train in the platform for over an hour, completely blocking the busy Edinburgh and Glasgow main line. That would probably have ended my railway career!

As a guard, I wouldn't close my door until the train had started to move, but then I'd close it quickly (as I didn't want to fall out). However I would then immediately open the droplight window in the door and continue to watch the platform until we were completely clear of it (or it was out of sight). If any emergency had arisen after I'd given the signal to start (whether by flag, lamp or bell/buzzer) I know I wouldn't have hesitated to apply the emergency brake; I didn't ever want to have a life on my conscience.

It's now over 40 years since I left the railway and a lot has changed. Much of it is for the better, but I'm not convinced it all is. Most of the trains on my local service now a worked by modern Class 385 EMUs. They have central locking so passengers cannot board after the doors have been closed. But there are still things I'm sure could be better. When I worked passenger trains it was always from a dedicated brake compartment with an in-swinging door that could be safely held open even after the train had started. Even with the door closed, and even with the very occasional ancient pre-nationalisation full brake, there was always a droplight window that I could open.

But with the 385s, the guard has no way to watch the platform after she's closed her door. And I don't know what sort of emergency brake she has either. (I hope she knows!) (I don't even know where the passenger emergency brake is on modern stock -- I suppose I should know! But I think it was easier when it alays was a chain painted red. It was always over the entrance doors. And it could always be reset by turning a "butterfly" at the end of the coach!) As for the driver, there's no way he can watch the platform before, or as he leaves -- the 385 cab doesn't have side windows. I thought cabs without side windows had been done away with in the 1930s!

Even 40+ years after leaving the railway, I still find myself "thinking railway". I still find myself involuntarily acknowledging an engine whistle by raising my hand above my head. On one recent occasion even when sitting in a carriage! And when I get off a train, I will often watch that the doors are safely closed before it departs. If I did spot something amiss, I would try to alert the guard, probably by raising both hands above my head in what was in my day the standard signal for a train to stop, in the absence of a red flag or lamp. (I hope that modern railway staff would still understand that.) But once the doors are closed, there's absolutely no way for me to alert the train crew, no matter how serious the emergency. The best I could do would be to walk (well maybe run) down the platform to the "Help Point", and try to get them to stop the train. By which time the train will be four or five miles away!

Surely it could be made safer! A droplight for the guard, and an openable side window for the driver surely aren't too much to ask. But they'll probably wait until a child falls between the train and the platform just after the doors have closed -- and neither the driver nor the guard can see what has happened.

I was primarily a freight guard, so passenger trains were always a bit of an exception for me. Getting an unfitted or partially fitted goods train, with no form of direct communication with the driver, to stop was another piece of fun entirely. You could try winding the van brake on and off, and you might succeed in attracting the driver's attention. But instead you might just succeed in breaking a coupling, leaving your brake van (with you in it) and the rear end of your train stranded in the middle of the section, hoping that the signalman in advance spots "Train passed without tail lamp", and takes appropriate action. I decided it was safer to follow a strategy that I'm dates well back into the 19th century -- get the signalmen and the signalling system to stop your train. I would write a message on a piece of paper -- quite likely the back page of an old Weekly Notice. I would then wrap the mesage round a piece of coal. As I approached the next signal box, I would give a series of short sharp blasts on my guard's whistle. Once I knew I had the signalman's attention, I would throw out the piece of coal, aiming it to land as near as possible to the signal box. I would then expect my train to be stopped at the next box (provided that that was what I had asked for in my message). I think I did this more than once, but I do remember throwing out such coal and paper message at Lochside (on a return working from Falkland Junction (Ayr) and then being stopped (as I expected) at Howwood, but I can't remember why I wanted my train stopped. No doubt I had a good reason at the time! I wonder what modern railway staff would make of such a method of communication.
Some interesting memories there - thanks for posting them! I can't remember where it was now but there was a serious railway accident (I think in the 19th century), where a message was wrapped round a potato and thrown from a train by the guard to alert a signalman that his train was in trouble. If I remember correctly, the message wasn't found and disaster struck. [Edit to say that it was actually in 1951. There was fire on a Kings Cross - Leeds train and for some reason the guard didn't use the emergency brake (he suspected a hot axle box), but had the idea of wrapping a note in a potato, asking for the train to be stopped for examination. He couldn't find a potato in the restaurant car so just threw the note out of a window without attaching to it anything (I'm not making this up). The note was found the next day. It was a serious fire, with four coaches destroyed and several people injured but fortunately there were no fatalities.]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Drivers would often look back to double check, but only if they were platform side of course, otherwise much whistle blowing and shouting by guard/platform staff, and if once on move and some xxxxx still tried to board dangerously, guards emergency brake. Crews had to have nerves of steel in those days, if you kept waiting for that one last straggler you'd never get away.
The platform gates at London termini were a good means of stopping those last minute dashers, much their annoyance no doubt.
Well over 40 years ago during one morning rush hour I saw a passenger pull open a platform gate that had been closed so that a busy up train could depart and then try to board the train. The station foreman got the bloke in a headlock and stopped him from getting on the train!
 
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Rescars

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Some interesting memories there - thanks for posting them! I can't remember where it was now but there was a serious railway accident (I think in the 19th century), where a message was wrapped round a potato and thrown from a train by the guard to alert a signalman that his train was in trouble. If I remember correctly, the message wasn't found and disaster struck. [Edit to say that it was actually in 1951. There was fire on a Kings Cross - Leeds train and for some reason the guard didn't use the emergency brake (he suspected a hot axle box), but had the idea of wrapping a note in a potato, asking for the train to be stopped for examination. He couldn't find a potato in the restaurant car so just threw the note out of a window without attaching to it anything (I'm not making this up). The note was found the next day. It was a serious fire, with four coaches destroyed and several people injured but fortunately there were no fatalities.]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Well over 40 years ago during one morning rush hour I saw a passenger pull open a platform gate that had been closed so that a busy up train could depart and then try to board the train. The station foreman got the bloke in a headlock and stopped him from getting on the train!
I don't want to make light of a serious incident, but there was a time when restaurant car kitchens carried powdered mashed potato rather than large quantities of raw spuds, thus saving much time-consuming and challenging peeling on the move. (Potato peelers not being the safest of tools to be handling in a rocking and rolling kitchen). So this event appears to give added weight to the advertiser's claim "For mash get Smash"!
 

Dai Corner

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I don't want to make light of a serious incident, but there was a time when restaurant car kitchens carried powdered mashed potato rather than large quantities of raw spuds, thus saving much time-consuming and challenging peeling on the move. (Potato peelers not being the safest of tools to be handling in a rocking and rolling kitchen). So this event appears to give added weight to the advertiser's claim "For mash get Smash"!
I thought you were going to recount a story about powdered mash escaping, forming a cloud and exploding due to a stray spark :lol:
 

Rescars

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I thought you were going to recount a story about powdered mash escaping, forming a cloud and exploding due to a stray spark :lol:
That would certainly have been more exciting than the flavour of the finished product! :)
 

Big Jumby 74

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If I may be allowed, let me recount something from my time as a planner on SW. There was a brief period when some of us Planners (and other grades no doubt) were asked if we wanted to work a shift doing something other than our normal job, just to get an understanding of how our work may impact on some of our front line colleagues. In the case of myself and some of my mates, we volunteered to do train despatch at Waterloo (main sub, plats 1-4) for a shift, under guidance of course.
Can't remember if I was on p1/2, or p3/4, (they were/are island platforms) with services arriving/departing at very frequent intervals. It sounds pretty simple/straightforward, but as I found out, it is far from. Yes, you know the timetable (arrival/departure times), so should be simple, yes? No way - what one does not understand (will never understand) until one has been there, is how that situation unfolds once you have factored in the 1,000 plus passengers alighting from one train arrival, the many hundred's wanting to get on to the same stock for it's next outbound working (we are talking of 7 or 8 min turn rounds) and/or the train in the adjacent platform (the previous arrival), combined with (as a despatcher) having to confirm to the Signalbox/ASC that both driver and guard for any outbound move are in place and ready to go, before plunging the TRTS button, BUT also, no more than 2 mins before the booked departure time, otherwise the box may allow another move to take place out of sequence.

Whilst I have no wish to comment on the role as it is today, it was back then a job that like many others, one would no doubt get use to, and just get on with. But from my own experience of a one shift basis, my abiding memory is that it is a role that if the train service went tits up, the despatch role could very quickly become a total n/mare, especially if the box were otherwise engaged for good reason, and couldn't act on your TRTS hits. It is easy to understand how a complete peak service could easily unravel in to a total mess/fire fight exercise. Nearly forgot to add, this was in 455 days, god knows how it was in (passenger operated door) 4 SUB/EPB days!
 
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