Here's one for all you Pacer lovers/haters!

[Yew]

Hmmm.

HST's where a stop-gap measure until the APT. However the apt didnt work out, and they where/are pretty good still

142's where a cost cutting stop gap measure until more funds could be there for better units. However these better units have been introduced, and stopped production. and pacers are totally unsuitable for most of the lines they are used on. yet we still have them.

I bet if we moved them from northern, wales, and cornwall, to london, They would be replaced within the week

 

[142094]

142's where a cost cutting stop gap measure until more funds could be there for better units. However these better units have been introduced, and stopped production. and pacers are totally unsuitable for most of the lines they are used on. yet we still have them.

Define unsuitable and also which lines you're thinking of. I can think of many lines where Pacers are perfectly suitable.

I'm not trying to have a go here but I'm looking at why so many people hate Pacers. A lot of people seem to hate them without actually travelling on them.

 

[Welshman]

The point is often made that Pacers are Leyland National bus bodies on rails.
And how many bus companies are still running Leyland Nationals?

 

[Anon Mouse]

I hate them and I have grew up with them. Well I like 141's, but thats because they look pretty cool. I would much rather a 101, or more realistically loco and stock, or 15x stock which really should have replaced them. Yes they may have helped to keep certain lines open, but as somebody else has stated most routes they are used on today would not have closed anyway. This fact also should not prevent people from having the opinion that they are the work of the devil.

I think its terrible that Pacers are used on long distance workings, Carlisle to Middlesbrough is too far for them, and I think its wrong to have them bouncing down mainlines, its rather alarming when you are flouncing down the ECML and a 225 or HST pelts past at line speed!

The point I made about prefering any other unit will always be the same, however I would rather a Pacer over no service at all!
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The point is often made that Pacers are Leyland National bus bodies on rails.
And how many bus companies are still running Leyland Nationals?

Sadly we don't have any Nationals around here. Not too long ago Go Gateshead used them on the 91 and 93/94 Team Valley services....happy days! (about 10 years ago, showing my age! lol)

 

[WestCoast]

I'm not trying to have a go here but I'm looking at why so many people hate Pacers. A lot of people seem to hate them without actually travelling on them.

I travel on one twice a day, five days a week! So that qualifies me to criticise them. The fact is that they are not well liked by the general public. They are fine for branchlines but they are not suited to longer distances services that they appear on such as Morecambe - Leeds. They are not good for high volume 'metro' style services, provisions for standing passengers are inadequate. As mentioned the ride quality can be poor (not good when you're standing up), the seating is poor and they just generally fall below standards seen on later sprinters.

They are quirky and unique but that still does not make them well suited to some routes which they are essentially forced to operate on.

 

[yorksrob]

heriatage DMUs are good fun on preserved lines, but would you want to use one to commute on each day?

Maybe not, but a DEMU, now that's a different matter !

 

[Blindtraveler]

Never gone down the ECML on one, worth it? Pro pacer incidentally, wil sometimes do newcastle - carlisle just for fun!

 

[LE Greys]

The point is often made that Pacers are Leyland National bus bodies on rails.
And how many bus companies are still running Leyland Nationals?

Jersey had Leyland Vanguards last time I was there. And the 20 route in Aberdeen had clattery old Leyland Olympians with dodgy suspension - presumably they were worried about the students breaking their shiny new buses (not that I was complanining, the new ones were horrible).

Still, the point is that Pacers are not only bouncy and uncomfortable, they are now old, bouncy and uncomfortable. While some stock ages well (no complaints from me about the 4-CEPs) these things really have not. It's about time that something with bogies came in to replace them.

Does anyone remember Pacers being called "Bendybuses" early on?

 

[Ivo]

Still, the point is that Pacers are not only bouncy and uncomfortable, they are now old, bouncy and uncomfortable. While some stock ages well (no complaints from me about the 4-CEPs) these things really have not. It's about time that something with bogies came in to replace them.

Will people be saying the same about the PPM (Class 139) 20 or so years from now? :?

 

[sprinterguy]

Never gone down the ECML on one, worth it? Pro pacer incidentally, wil sometimes do newcastle - carlisle just for fun!

I've done Durham to Newcastle a couple of times back in the days when there was a regular Newcastle to Saltburn service via the ECML. For experiencing exactly what a Pacer can do when flat out for an extended period of time, it's hellfire.

Just as well there's still at least one Tyne Valley Newcastle to Carlisle diagram that has always been good for a Pacer!

 

[pdq]

I'm on a 144 now from Brighouse to Man Vic.
Comfy seats: check.
Room to stretch: check (but I have the group of 4 facing seats to myself!)
75mph: hope not...
And the lady opposite is successfully applying mascara without poking herself in the eye as we bounce along.
It's warm and in the middle of the carriage there are no draughts, unlike the last time I did this journey on a freezing 150 where many of the windows wouldn't close.
However, if this was a 142 I may not be so charitable.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I've done Durham to Newcastle a couple of times back in the days when there was a regular Newcastle to Saltburn service via the ECML. For experiencing exactly what a Pacer can do when flat out for an extended period of time, it's hellfire.

Just as well there's still at least one Tyne Valley Newcastle to Carlisle diagram that has always been good for a Pacer!

well said that man! You just cant beat it, esp on a semi fast, holtwistle, hexam and metro centre only! Sooo wish we had some up here in Scotland!

 

[142094]

I travel on one twice a day, five days a week! So that qualifies me to criticise them. The fact is that they are not well liked by the general public. They are fine for branchlines but they are not suited to longer distances services that they appear on such as Morecambe - Leeds. They are not good for high volume 'metro' style services, provisions for standing passengers are inadequate. As mentioned the ride quality can be poor (not good when you're standing up), the seating is poor and they just generally fall below standards seen on later sprinters.

They are quirky and unique but that still does not make them well suited to some routes which they are essentially forced to operate on.

My commute used to be 142 in the morning and then a mixture at night. I agree there are some services where 142s shouldn't be used, but I didn't find a problem with Leeds - Morecambe when I did it on a 144.

I've done Durham to Newcastle a couple of times back in the days when there was a regular Newcastle to Saltburn service via the ECML. For experiencing exactly what a Pacer can do when flat out for an extended period of time, it's hellfire.

That is a good one, although next time I do it I'll drive to Saltburn to pick up the early morning service and go from there. Middlesbrough - Carlisle will always be one of the best, shame it isn't at a better time of day.

 

[Class 153]

I like the class 150s for longer journeys

 

[ChrisCooper]

Will people be saying the same about the PPM (Class 139) 20 or so years from now? :?

I expect the PPMs popularity will depend on if it is just used on suitable routes, or if it or similar things (tramtrains) end up being used as general Pacer replacements on the same sort of routes Pacers are criticised as being unsuitable for.

As for the marketing, I think much of this is done without any real knowledge of the actual product, perhaps even before it has entered service. It's almost like "well it's new so it must be better, faster, more comfortable etc etc". One that I always remember is when MML was promoting the Turbostars, one thing was "better acceleration making them more suited to services that stop regularly" (or something like that). Better than what? Not the HSTs as HSTs could easily keep to time when running in Turbostar paths, even on short hops (I remember one run where a HST was substituting for a 170, and we ended up sitting for a few mins at each station waiting for time). Now the Meridiens on the other hand (I remember when they were still running to Turbostar times seeing one sitting for over 5mins at Loughborough having done the just under 10miles from Leicester).

 

[WestCoast]

My commute used to be 142 in the morning and then a mixture at night. I agree there are some services where 142s shouldn't be used, but I didn't find a problem with Leeds - Morecambe when I did it on a 144.

Metro-refurbished 144s are much preferable to ex-FNW or Merseytravel 142s - the seating is so much better. Comfort wise, the ex-ATN units are also better than the bus benches - I'm always pleased to see an ex-ATN unit turn up (not that they are all that common in the West).

 

[northwichcat]

Metro-refurbished 144s are much preferable to ex-FNW or Merseytravel 142s - the seating is so much better. Comfort wise, the ex-ATN units are also better than the bus benches - I'm always pleased to see an ex-ATN unit turn up (not that they are all that common in the West).

The 144 seating is more comfortable but the leg room is much worse.

Whether I'm pleased to see an ex-ATN 142 depends on how busy the service is. 18 less seats can make quite a difference and I rather be perched on the end of a bench seat than be stood up.
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I like the class 150s for longer journeys

How about doing Manchester-Milford Haven on one, which is a route 150s have been filling in for 158s quite a bit recently?

 

[WestCoast]

How about doing Manchester-Milford Haven on one, which is a route 150s have been filling in for 158s quite a bit recently?

I saw a 150 deputising on that route once - poor people! If it's happening more often, that isn't good news...
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Whether I'm pleased to see an ex-ATN 142 depends on how busy the service is. 18 less seats can make quite a difference and I rather be perched on the end of a bench seat than be stood up.

Yes, but it depends on whether someone will sit on the 3-person bench in the middle?

 

[danfitz123]

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/MichaelHuber/2010-03-23_203414_pacer.jpg

I think the article means this kind of pacer.