UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bletchleyite]

It's a shame the legislation doesn't require receipt printers too. It's a right faff to get receipts from many of these networks. Fortunately I no longer need to.

That's a fairly niche requirement, even with company cars a (low) mileage rate is usually paid rather than fuel actuals.

 

[stuu]

An option to send a pdf to a phone number if a receipt was needed would be the simplest answer, rather than maintaining printers which will hardly ever be needed

 

[trebor79]

That's a fairly niche requirement, even with company cars a (low) mileage rate is usually paid rather than fuel actuals.

But quite often the company wants the receipts so they can claim the VAT back.

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An option to send a pdf to a phone number if a receipt was needed would be the simplest answer, rather than maintaining printers which will hardly ever be needed

Now you need a screen as well as payment terminal. Cheaper just to install a thermal receipt printer.

 

[DustyBin]

But quite often the company wants the receipts so they can claim the VAT back.

This.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But quite often the company wants the receipts so they can claim the VAT back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2023 ==


Now you need a screen as well as payment terminal. Cheaper just to install a thermal receipt printer.

Would need to maintain the printer and replace the till roll.

Best way is what TfL already does - let you register a card online and download receipts for it. The "RUK Standard Minority" of an EV driver with no Internet access in any form basically doesn't exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2023 ==

This.

Do people put their home electricity bill in for charging at home? I'd forgotten about this requirement but it's ridiculous and should be done away with. If the car was driven, of course it was fuelled.

 

[Energy]

Now you need a screen as well as payment terminal. Cheaper just to install a thermal receipt printer.

Rapid chargers already have screens. The easy option is to let people type in an email address for it to be sent to. They may not have a mobile phone but if the company gives them a car I'm sure they'll have a company email.

 

[The Ham]

If someone needs to make eight trips a year which exceed fifty mile then a vehicle with a range is not a suitable choice. Simples.

Makng assesment based on averages and ignoring the outliers is nonsense. I buy on average one bottle of wine per week. But if I was restricted to that it would ruin my Christmas and Birthday parties.

I think the 8 times a year was just an picked out of thin air example, not to be taken that literally. I agree car hire is not cheap, but there are per-hour rentals for vans that would suffice for a trip to Ikea, if it isn't actually cheaper to just pay for it to be delivered. Now there's a collection point for Ikea that's a 5 minute drive, so I could hire a van for just one hour if needed. Again, a very specific example but one that might be similar for others needing a bigger vehicle once or twice.

And the Leaf someone bought recently for £4400 does 80 miles a day, which is about 60 miles more than I do on most days. For things like football training, I might do nearer 40-45 miles. Again, all fine as long as I remember to charge when I get home like a mobile!

The reason I'm not buying one is because I hate the look of the early Leaf! I am not however put off getting a car with a small battery, although as I've said before I would want fast charging so it can do longer trips without really long waits. Currently many small EVs are slow to charge (well, relatively speaking given there's less to charge) but that will change and there are exceptions.

8 trips of 50+ miles is from the road usage data for the whole of the UK. i.e. every car does 8 trips a year of 50+ miles years and no more.

Personally I know that's not the case as my car does a lot more than 8 trips a year of over 50 miles, therefore to retain that average there's going to be cars which never (or very very rarely) go more than 50 miles.

Even for a return trip of 160 miles (stop to charge once each way and at the destination) which is the only trip that is done each year which is more than 50 miles which that user does, then there'll still be some who would take that over having to own an ICE car.

The point being there is a market for such cars, even if they aren't suitable for me. Often the issue isn't that there's not a market, rather that because that market doesn't align with likes experience they think that it doesn't exist.

 

[Chester1]

And 66 pages in, we're back to the same tired arguments against EVs. Needing to drive 250 miles a day, no time to stop and charge.

Want to warn everyone that the batteries will die after 5 years and cost £15k to replace?

(and I've never moved a sofa in my life - but it was just an example of why someone might want a larger vehicle but doesn't need to own one just for those rare occasions).

Some of the blanket complaints are indeed ridiculous but some of the ones about personal needs and affordability are not. I am weighing up ditching my current car less lifestyle. I have two problems which currently nudge me against EVs. The first is that I live in a flat, with unallocated parking bays and no chargers. This is quite an issue. I have pushed management company on this but with no luck. The second is that I currently make a frequent journey (approximately weekly) by train that is approximately 80 miles by road. The suggested budget second hand EVs would not be suitable and I don’t have a spare £10-15k for a car. A small secondhand ICE around the £5k mark would probably be my best option to tide me over until an EV suiting my lifestyle is financially viable. I could continue to take train on long journeys but the cheaper cost of driving compared with extortionate rail fare I currently pay needs to be factored in.

 

[Roast Veg]

It's a shame the legislation doesn't require receipt printers too. It's a right faff to get receipts from many of these networks. Fortunately I no longer need to.

But quite often the company wants the receipts so they can claim the VAT back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2023 ==


Now you need a screen as well as payment terminal. Cheaper just to install a thermal receipt printer.

As mentioned in other replies, there's absolutely no way charge point operators are going to accept thermal receipt printers, or indeed any requirement that forces on-site attendance. The intention is that charge points won't even see a regular service except when problems are detected remotely. VAT receipts will need to be requested from the CPO, as they already do today.

 

[jon0844]

Some of the blanket complaints are indeed ridiculous but some of the ones about personal needs and affordability are not. I am weighing up ditching my current car less lifestyle. I have two problems which currently nudge me against EVs. The first is that I live in a flat, with unallocated parking bays and no chargers. This is quite an issue. I have pushed management company on this but with no luck. The second is that I currently make a frequent journey (approximately weekly) by train that is approximately 80 miles by road. The suggested budget second hand EVs would not be suitable and I don’t have a spare £10-15k for a car. A small secondhand ICE around the £5k mark would probably be my best option to tide me over until an EV suiting my lifestyle is financially viable. I could continue to take train on long journeys but the cheaper cost of driving compared with extortionate rail fare I currently pay needs to be factored in.

That's why I leased a petrol car until 2025 and hope second hand values on EVs will be better by then. I don't really want a Leaf but expect what £5-10k will buy is going to get a lot better.

High mileage doesn't worry me as much as an ICE car because a battery is likely good for ages and my own mileage needs would see only 5-6000 miles added per year once I own it.

I wouldn't want a car with 50 miles, but 100-150 would likely be okay. Yet I expect by 2025 most EVs will be 200 or more.

 

[tomuk]

That's why I leased a petrol car until 2025 and hope second hand values on EVs will be better by then. I don't really want a Leaf but expect what £5-10k will buy is going to get a lot better.

High mileage doesn't worry me as much as an ICE car because a battery is likely good for ages and my own mileage needs would see only 5-6000 miles added per year once I own it.

I wouldn't want a car with 50 miles, but 100-150 would likely be okay. Yet I expect by 2025 most EVs will be 200 or more.

There are a lot of non engine related items on a car that wear with mileage. Being an EV doesn't exempt a car from those faults or requiring repairs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are a lot of non engine related items on a car that wear with mileage. Being an EV doesn't exempt a car from those faults or requiring repairs.

There are fewer of them on an EV, and some of them experience less wear on an EV, e.g. brake linings because regenerative braking is used a lot instead of friction braking.

Tyres are the one exception, these are likely to need replacing more often on an EV as it's usually heavier than the same car with an ICE and can put more power down.

 

[jon0844]

There are a lot of non engine related items on a car that wear with mileage. Being an EV doesn't exempt a car from those faults or requiring repairs.

Of course it will need maintenance and care, but the motor and battery aren't likely to fail, whereas all the cars I've had to sell or scrap have been costly issues with the gearbox, engine or clutch - often requiring multiple attempts to find and fix the issue. Sometimes the value of the car made the car an effective write off.

Dealing with other items is pretty cheap and simple in comparison.

The electronics and sensors etc are concerns though but that is just as much a concern for ICE vehicles built in the last 20-30 years.

 

[tomuk]

Of course it will need maintenance and care, but the motor and battery aren't likely to fail, whereas all the cars I've had to sell or scrap have been costly issues with the gearbox, engine or clutch - often requiring multiple attempts to find and fix the issue. Sometimes the value of the car made the car an effective write off.

Dealing with other items is pretty cheap and simple in comparison.

The electronics and sensors etc are concerns though but that is just as much a concern for ICE vehicles built in the last 20-30 years.

Sounds like you've been very unlucky with ICEs most cars are scrapped due to accident damage or rust.

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There are fewer of them on an EV, and some of them experience less wear on an EV, e.g. brake linings because regenerative braking is used a lot instead of friction braking.

Tyres are the one exception, these are likely to need replacing more often on an EV as it's usually heavier than the same car with an ICE and can put more power down.

Brake pads, shoes and discs are a throw away maintenance items. All cars have bodywork, electronics, suspension, axles etc.

 

[trebor79]

As mentioned in other replies, there's absolutely no way charge point operators are going to accept thermal receipt printers, or indeed any requirement that forces on-site attendance. The intention is that charge points won't even see a regular service except when problems are detected remotely. VAT receipts will need to be requested from the CPO, as they already do today.

All chargers will need to have regular inspections and tests to ensure they are safe for use etc.
Although I agree with the point that we are unlikely to see receipt printers, unfortunately.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Brake pads, shoes and discs are a throw away maintenance items. All cars have bodywork, electronics, suspension, axles etc.

Which generally, unless unlucky, don't require any maintenance at all during the life of a car, give or take welding when it's on its last legs and shock absorbers on a very old car.

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Sounds like you've been very unlucky with ICEs most cars are scrapped due to accident damage or rust.

Some cars seem prone to gearbox issues, but if you stay away from known problem designs then things like clutches and gearboxes usually outlast the bodywork. Some people drive cars with no mechanical sympathy, though, so if one person has lots of clutch/gearbox issues on multiple cars rather than being unlucky once they need to take a serious look at their driving style.

If you need to swap a clutch you've almost certainly been riding it or slipping it too much.

 

[tomuk]

Which generally, unless unlucky, don't require any maintenance at all during the life of a car, give or take welding when it's on its last legs and shock absorbers on a very old car.

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You must live a sheltered motoring life, there are large numbers of suspension components replaced every day across the country, drop links, ball joints or whole suspension arms, and the somewhat modern plague of cracked\broken springs.

The following table shows the most common MOT failures. So getting on for 90% of failures don't involve the ICE and EVs all share the same 'auxiliary' components. Might suspension and brake issues be worse through the extra weight and torque of an EV or disuse of the brakes.

Defect category	Percentage of defects
Lights, reflectors and electrics	25%
Suspension	19%
Brakes	16%
Tyres	12%
Impaired visibility	9%
Body, chassis and structure	6%

Source: https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/most-common-mot-failure-reasons/n1198

 

[Noddy]

The following table shows the most common MOT failures. So getting on for 90% of failures don't involve the ICE and EVs all share the same 'auxiliary' components. Might suspension and brake issues be worse through the extra weight and torque of an EV or disuse of the brakes.

Defect category	Percentage of defects
Lights, reflectors and electrics	25%
Suspension	19%
Brakes	16%
Tyres	12%
Impaired visibility	9%
Body, chassis and structure	6%

Source: https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/most-common-mot-failure-reasons/n1198

The MOT is a safety check to examine whether the car is roadworthy. It doesn’t check the vast majority of parts associated with the ICE or EV drive train. AIUI the only items associated with the ICE that are checked in an MOT are the exhaust for leaks, and emissions, together which account for 5% of failures according to the article you linked to. It doesn’t check whether the head gasket, timing belt or clutch (etc etc) is about to fail.

 

[jon0844]

If you need to swap a clutch you've almost certainly been riding it or slipping it too much.

The clutch problem for me was on an Escort Cosworth, and it should have been a straight forward replacement job - if not for the incompetence of the Ford technicians who didn't know what they were doing (and were supposedly RS specialists). That was eventually fixed FWIW.

I wonder how EV performance cars (including the ridiculously cheap MG4 X Power, and those from Audi, Porsche etc) will stand up to abuse and look like when they're 10+ years old.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how EV performance cars (including the ridiculously cheap MG4 X Power, and those from Audi, Porsche etc) will stand up to abuse and look like when they're 10+ years old.

Probably considerably better than an ICE because there's less to break in the drivetrain.

 

[trebor79]

Probably considerably better than an ICE because there's less to break in the drivetrain.

Agree. It's just an electric motor and reduction gearbox. Provided that things are programmed such that the torque and power capacities of either are never exceeded (which is pretty trivial), there's no reason they shouldn't run for many thousands of hours without attention or maintenance, just as they do in industrial applications all day every day.
Probably the components most likely to fail are the power electronics, but even then the failure rate (based upon industrial experience) should be very low.

 

[AM9]

Agree. It's just an electric motor and reduction gearbox. Provided that things are programmed such that the torque and power capacities of either are never exceeded (which is pretty trivial), there's no reason they shouldn't run for many thousands of hours without attention or maintenance, just as they do in industrial applications all day every day.
Probably the components most likely to fail are the power electronics, but even then the failure rate (based upon industrial experience) should be very low.

I think the days of flaky power electronics are effectively gone now, especially as they now form part of the braking system (with the mechanical brakes as an emergency backup). Probably the weak links are minor items such as sensors, mechanical switches (acting as sensors) and non-essential accessories, (e.g. device charging facilities).

 

[bspahh]

Probably considerably better than an ICE because there's less to break in the drivetrain.

I expect the electric cars reliability will be better than an ICE with an equivalent performance.

Compared to normal cars, I expect there will be a lot of failures from high performance EV cars due to sudden decreases in kinetic energy, from direct interaction with the built environment.

The MG4 X Power has a quoted 0-60 time of 3.8s. A Metro 6R4 Clubman took 4.5s

 

[AM9]

I expect the electric cars reliability will be better than an ICE with an equivalent performance.

Compared to normal cars, I expect there will be a lot of failures from high performance EV cars due to sudden decreases in kinetic energy, from direct interaction with the built environment.

The MG4 X Power has a quoted 0-60 time of 3.8s. A Metro 6R4 Clubman took 4.5s

Do you mean that driving agressively (in any car) will have reliability consequences.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you mean that driving agressively (in any car) will have reliability consequences.

I'm pretty sure they meant that almost nobody will be used to that kind of raw power and thus a lot of them will end up against a tree or in a ditch in fairly short order.

But yes, it is indeed the case that driving without mechanical sympathy will result in more failures than with. For example a clutch should easily last a car's life, but if you habitually rest your foot on it or slip it on every gear change as some people do you'll find it in need of replacement within a few years of new. I have never had to replace a clutch and don't expect I ever will unless one happened to have a manufacturing fault.

 

[AM9]

I'm pretty sure they meant that almost nobody will be used to that kind of raw power and thus a lot of them will end up against a tree or in a ditch in fairly short order.

But yes, it is indeed the case that driving without mechanical sympathy will result in more failures than with. For example a clutch should easily last a car's life, but if you habitually rest your foot on it or slip it on every gear change as some people do you'll find it in need of replacement within a few years of new. I have never had to replace a clutch and don't expect I ever will unless one happened to have a manufacturing fault.

Not quiote what I meant to convey. So I'll reword it slightly:
Do you mean that driving an EV agressively (as with any car) will have reliability consequences?
My point is that any EV driven to the limit of it's performance, e.g. speed, torque, roadholding, brakes, is likely to have more mainntenance and reliability issues that one driven normally. That applies just as much with a high performance car as a normal car. A high performance EV will have higher rated brakes, tyres, suspension components etc., designed to survive being used at the maximum stress level that the car can deliver, but will likely give a much longer trouble free life when driven normallly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not quiote what I meant to convey. So I'll reword it slightly:
Do you mean that driving an EV agressively (as with any car) will have reliability consequences?
My point is that any EV driven to the limit of it's performance, e.g. speed, torque, roadholding, brakes, is likely to have more mainntenance and reliability issues that one driven normally. That applies just as much with a high performance car as a normal car. A high performance EV will have higher rated brakes, tyres, suspension components etc., designed to survive being used at the maximum stress level that the car can deliver, but will likely give a much longer trouble free life when driven normallly.

This is probably true, but who buys an expensive performance car to drive it in a pedestrian manner? If you want to do that there are plenty of options for buying something that is reasonably conventional but looks sporty, e.g. the Vauxhall SRi trim.

 

[SWT_USER]

Of course you’ll also be aware that the Tesla supercharger network is in the process of being opened up and available to all electric cars.

Is this actually happening? I know there are a few currently available to all but I'm not seeing many signs of progress. It would be really good if they were all available for non Teslas.

I used The Newport (Celtic Manor) one last week in my ID3. Coincidentally on the day Tesla were doing free charging which was a nice bonus!

 

[bspahh]

Not quiote what I meant to convey. So I'll reword it slightly:
Do you mean that driving an EV agressively (as with any car) will have reliability consequences?
My point is that any EV driven to the limit of it's performance, e.g. speed, torque, roadholding, brakes, is likely to have more mainntenance and reliability issues that one driven normally. That applies just as much with a high performance car as a normal car. A high performance EV will have higher rated brakes, tyres, suspension components etc., designed to survive being used at the maximum stress level that the car can deliver, but will likely give a much longer trouble free life when driven normallly.

I meant that the high performance electric vehicles have dramatically higher acceleration than ICE cars, and that this will cause a lot of them to be scrapped after impacts when the road turns and they are going too fast to do the same.

In the 1980s, a 0-60 time under 8s was a fast hot hatch, under 6s was a supercar (an RS500 Cosworth was 5.6s) and less than 4s was a Group B rally car.

I don't see that high performance tyres will last longer than high quality normal tyres. They will cost more, because they are sold in smaller quantities, and are more likely to use soft compounds for extra grip.
BTW, https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/ is an interesting site to see how many cars are still left on the road. This shows the breakdown of all the Austin Minis that are registered, with their engine sizes.

AUSTIN MINI (model family) - How Many Left?

Statistics for AUSTIN MINI (model family) model family.. See how many cars of any make and model are left on Britain's roads.

www.howmanyleft.co.uk

There are 3 with an engine capacity of > 15000cc (!)

 

[Noddy]

Is this actually happening? I know there are a few currently available to all but I'm not seeing many signs of progress. It would be really good if they were all available for non Teslas.

I used The Newport (Celtic Manor) one last week in my ID3. Coincidentally on the day Tesla were doing free charging which was a nice bonus!

Yeah, it’s definitely happing. The UK does seem slightly behind Europe though-I believe (for example) over 90% in the Netherlands and 70% in Germany are open to non-Tesla drivers. I’m not sure why the UK is behind but Tesla are also opening their network in the US (albeit in a very different way) and ultimately it won’t be closed anywhere for that much longer.