Class 730 LNR & WMR Delivery/test Updates

[Energy]

So, ignoring the 319s, 36 730/2s replace 37 350/2s. No increase in number of sets so difficult to see how, for instance, the Liverpools could be increased as that would obviously require more sets. But more seats. Unless the 730/0s remain on Euston - Bletchley/Milton K..

The sets are longer, a 240m train only requires 2 730/2s rather than 3 350s.

The breakdown of trains is now slightly different, originally some 350s would run WMR services but with the increase of 730/0s this will no longer happen.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The sets are longer, a 240m train only requires 2 730/2s rather than 3 350s.

Thanks

Might be wrong, but I thought the only 12 cars were South of Northampton, and I understood that the 730/2s would not be used on via Northampton services, only the long distance ones (Euston Crewe for instance).

If 2 x 730/2s are indeed to be used Euston Northampton it will get complicated, as the 12 cars leave 4 cars behind at Northampton going North and v.v. going South. Means the 8 going forwards to Brum must only be 5 (but longer cars).

I'm probably thinking too much - it is LNwR...

 

[warwickshire]

Any estimated time yet please for entry on the Trings to London Euston to replace 319, still end September approximately or is it delayed into October or beyond due to obvious reasons ie delayed entry into traffic ie training and obviously the recent strikes etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, ignoring the 319s, 36 730/2s replace 37 350/2s. No increase in number of sets so difficult to see how, for instance, the Liverpools could be increased as that would obviously require more sets. But more seats. Unless the 730/0s remain on Euston - Bletchley/Milton K..

Single 5 car sets would be fine on the Liverpools at 2tph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2023 ==

Thanks

Might be wrong, but I thought the only 12 cars were South of Northampton, and I understood that the 730/2s would not be used on via Northampton services, only the long distance ones (Euston Crewe for instance).

If 2 x 730/2s are indeed to be used Euston Northampton it will get complicated, as the 12 cars leave 4 cars behind at Northampton going North and v.v. going South. Means the 8 going forwards to Brum must only be 5 (but longer cars).

I'm probably thinking too much - it is LNwR...

I believe Brum services will remain 350 for the reason you state, but that 730s will also feature on MKC and Tring locals which will be fine as 5 car off peak but need 10 peak, as the loadings are much more London commuter driven.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Single 5 car sets would be fine on the Liverpools at 2tph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2023 ==

Thanks, didn't realise the Liverpools were 8 cars at moment, which is what you imply.

If only LNwR would load onto R.T.T....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, didn't realise the Liverpools were 8 cars at moment, which is what you imply.

They are yes.

If only LNwR would load onto R.T.T....

Would be nice!

 

[Energy]

They are yes.



Would be nice!

Some of their timetables show the booked train length, like Birmingham-Northampton/Euston which is mostly 8 car.

 

[Danfilm007]

On the Liverpools - these have ASDO don't they? As wouldn't a 5 car be too long for Winsford, Acton Bridge et. al?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

On the Liverpools - these have ASDO don't they? As wouldn't a 5 car be too long for Winsford, Acton Bridge et. al?

Yes they do
I think all modern rolling stock have some form of SDO

 

[RealTrains07]

On the Liverpools - these have ASDO don't they? As wouldn't a 5 car be too long for Winsford, Acton Bridge et. al?

Same issue for rugeley t valley and atherstone. Both arent long enough for more than a single 730 or 350

 

[Danfilm007]

Thanks both!

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the Liverpools - these have ASDO don't they? As wouldn't a 5 car be too long for Winsford, Acton Bridge et. al?

I might be wrong but I think they have manual UDS (Unit Deselect) rather than ASDO, but it achieves the same thing, but only by full unit (i.e. "front 4") by way of the guard pressing a button in the cab in front of which they want doors released. Unless it's been retrofitted without me noticing.

 

[OscarH]

I might be wrong but I think they have manual UDS (Unit Deselect) rather than ASDO, but it achieves the same thing, but only by full unit (i.e. "front 4") by way of the guard pressing a button in the cab in front of which they want doors released. Unless it's been retrofitted without me noticing.

I think that was about 730s given it mentioned 5 cars (which would be absolutely insane if any new stock didn't come with it, but it is the DfT)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that was about 730s given it mentioned 5 cars (which would be absolutely insane if any new stock didn't come with it, but it is the DfT)

Ah, sorry. Yes, I'd expect the 730s to have ASDO.

 

[AJDesiro]

I might be wrong but I think they have manual UDS (Unit Deselect) rather than ASDO, but it achieves the same thing, but only by full unit (i.e. "front 4") by way of the guard pressing a button in the cab in front of which they want doors released. Unless it's been retrofitted without me noticing.

In the WMT business plan commitments I recall reading something about the retrofitting of ASDO on the 172s and 350s. There was a post on this forum a few days ago where someone mentioned that they found ASDO valises at Cradley Heath, however I’m veering off topic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2023 ==

Thanks

Might be wrong, but I thought the only 12 cars were South of Northampton, and I understood that the 730/2s would not be used on via Northampton services, only the long distance ones (Euston Crewe for instance).

If 2 x 730/2s are indeed to be used Euston Northampton it will get complicated, as the 12 cars leave 4 cars behind at Northampton going North and v.v. going South. Means the 8 going forwards to Brum must only be 5 (but longer cars).

I'm probably thinking too much - it is LNwR...

Euston-Crewe is supposedly going to be run by 2x730/2s, it’s a very popular service that frankly should have its frequency increased, it’s so popular that I avoid it where possible when travelling to London, since it is often full and standing, if not crush loaded (as someone who lives in rugby, it was nice to have a cheap train to London that only had one stop, though Avanti with a split at MK isn’t much more even with any permitted tickets).

I seem to recall @SCDR_WMR mentioning something about these services moving to 12 car 350 operation at some point too in the interim.

 

[Energy]

seem to recall @SCDR_WMR mentioning something about these services moving to 12 car 350 operation at some point too in the interim.

I remember that as well, though LNWR/WMT doesn't show it on RTT and London to Crewe is one of the timetables they don't show train length for so I'm not sure.

 

[AJDesiro]

I remember that as well, though LNWR/WMT doesn't show it on RTT and London to Crewe is one of the timetables they don't show train length for so I'm not sure.

TIGER is a good resource that gives access to the Darwin data feeds that station PIS displays use, which should normally give formation data. Though not every station is on it.

https://tiger.worldline.global/home

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Thanks

Might be wrong, but I thought the only 12 cars were South of Northampton, and I understood that the 730/2s would not be used on via Northampton services, only the long distance ones (Euston Crewe for instance)..

12 car 350 working will be in place on weekends probably from December, trials have been done and the word from LLCs is that it has been demanded from the DfT and as there is no physical reason not to have them, LNR have no option but to implement it with a method of working still to be finalised.

730/s will go via Northampton during disruption, but not planned for active work

 

[Wyrleybart]

Two thoughts / queries here
Is it going to be possible to multi 730/0 and 730/2 together in passenger traffic ? There is a differential between 730/0 at 90mph max and 730/2 at 110mph max, so would there be some kind of reminder appliance in a 730/2 cab to remind the driver of a 90mph unit bobbing around on the rear.

Assuming a 5 car 730/2 fits everywhere that 2x730/0 fits , presume there is no restriction to allocation the former to a Birmingham cross city service.


Assume the Cannock / Chase line will be restricted to either single 730/0s or a 350 due to the platform lengths

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Two thoughts / queries here
Is it going to be possible to multi 730/0 and 730/2 together in passenger traffic ? There is a differential between 730/0 at 90mph max and 730/2 at 110mph max, so would there be some kind of reminder appliance in a 730/2 cab to remind the driver of a 90mph unit bobbing around on the rear.

Assuming a 5 car 730/2 fits everywhere that 2x730/0 fits , presume there is no restriction to allocation the former to a Birmingham cross city service.


Assume the Cannock / Chase line will be restricted to either single 730/0s or a 350 due to the platform lengths

They will not be ran in mixed formations.

/2s will not be used in WMR areas.

Chase line will be 350s still, other than Walsall-Wolves which should be predominantly/all 730/0s

 

[Pumbaa]

They will not be ran in mixed formations.

/2s will not be used in WMR areas.

Chase line will be 350s still, other than Walsall-Wolves which should be predominantly/all 730/0s

No, Rugeley - Intl will be 730/0.

The two can work together (or will be able to post software mods) but I doubt it will be done for anything other than clearing the line type activity.

 

[778]

No, Rugeley - Intl will be 730/0.

The two can work together (or will be able to post software mods) but I doubt it will be done for anything other than clearing the line type activity.

Is this how the services will be operated? I can understand why the 730/0 order was increased to 48. 36 probably would have not been enough.

Class 350
Euston - Birmingham
Birmingham - Crewe
Watford - St Albans

Class 730/0
Wolverhampton - Walsall
Birmingham International - Rugeley
Litchfield - Bromsgrove
Four Oaks - Redditch

Class 730/2
Euston - Tring/Milton Keynes
Euston - Crewe
Birmingham - Liverpool

 

[AJDesiro]

Is this how the services will be operated? I can understand why the 730/0 order was increased to 48. 36 probably would have not been enough.

Class 350
Euston - Birmingham
Birmingham - Crewe
Watford - St Albans

Class 730/0
Wolverhampton - Walsall
Birmingham International - Rugeley
Litchfield - Bromsgrove
Four Oaks - Redditch

Class 730/2
Euston - Tring/Milton Keynes
Euston - Crewe
Birmingham - Liverpool

One issue I’ve found is that, unless I’ve calculated the number of diagrams incorrectly, there aren’t enough 730/2s to run those services if they were to run doubled up (or single units at 2tph in the case of Liverpools). So presumably some services will either run as 350s or single units. Especially considering that once the rollout is complete, only 25 350s will be in service off peak (unless they lengthen formations or increase service frequencies)

Peculiarly, the 730 fact sheet on the WMR/LNR website seems to think that the /2s will run on Euston-Birmingham, Euston-Crewe and Birmingham-Liverpool, which I’d imagine would be highly unlikely since that would require more units that Euston-Tring/MKC.

 

[45076]

A green 730 was spied through the fence at Litchurch Lane on Sunday 03/09, sorry no idea of the number this numpty forgot his binoculars.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

No, Rugeley - Intl will be 730/0.

The two can work together (or will be able to post software mods) but I doubt it will be done for anything other than clearing the line type activity.

Yes, on a technical level they can be connected, but there is no plan to have mixed units. As you say, the current software doesn't allow them to work together (so the DIs that were at Melton Mowbray were told).

 

[py_megapixel]

I really hope at least some 350s will hang around on Birmingham-Liverpool services. They are lovely things to travel on up the WCML - quiet, decent seating (except on the /2s which are going anyway), plenty of natural light. They have a way of making it seem effortless to accelerate multiple tons of metal up to 110mph, which I somehow doubt the Aventrae will be able to match.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Is this how the services will be operated? I can understand why the 730/0 order was increased to 48. 36 probably would have not been enough.

It's only the 350/2 going so plenty of 350s for the Bhm-Liv and Bhm-Cre

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really hope at least some 350s will hang around on Birmingham-Liverpool services. They are lovely things to travel on up the WCML - quiet, decent seating (except on the /2s which are going anyway), plenty of natural light. They have a way of making it seem effortless to accelerate multiple tons of metal up to 110mph, which I somehow doubt the Aventrae will be able to match.

I think the 730/2s will be good. Having been on one, the 720s would be pretty decent units were it not for the seating layout, after all, and the /2s will have a 2+2 layout.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2023 ==

One issue I’ve found is that, unless I’ve calculated the number of diagrams incorrectly, there aren’t enough 730/2s to run those services if they were to run doubled up (or single units at 2tph in the case of Liverpools). So presumably some services will either run as 350s or single units. Especially considering that once the rollout is complete, only 25 350s will be in service off peak (unless they lengthen formations or increase service frequencies)

Euston-Tring/MKC, particularly the former, is very "peaky" and carries far less leisure travel than Euston-Brum/Crewe, so single units will be fine off peak most of the time. After all they're equivalent to 6.350.

Peculiarly, the 730 fact sheet on the WMR/LNR website seems to think that the /2s will run on Euston-Birmingham, Euston-Crewe and Birmingham-Liverpool, which I’d imagine would be highly unlikely since that would require more units that Euston-Tring/MKC.

I think that's just out of date.

 

[RealTrains07]

I really hope at least some 350s will hang around on Birmingham-Liverpool services. They are lovely things to travel on up the WCML - quiet, decent seating (except on the /2s which are going anyway), plenty of natural light. They have a way of making it seem effortless to accelerate multiple tons of metal up to 110mph, which I somehow doubt the Aventrae will be able to match.

Technically now that the total number of 5 car 730s has been altered.

The 350s will still make up the majority of the LNR fleet even if only by a small number.

So hopefully with the 730s in play it means longer 350 diagrams?

 

[Pumbaa]

Is this how the services will be operated? I can understand why the 730/0 order was increased to 48. 36 probably would have not been enough.

Class 350
Euston - Birmingham
Birmingham - Crewe
Watford - St Albans

Class 730/0
Wolverhampton - Walsall
Birmingham International - Rugeley
Litchfield - Bromsgrove
Four Oaks - Redditch

Class 730/2
Euston - Tring/Milton Keynes
Euston - Crewe
Birmingham - Liverpool

This is the plan as I understand it, with additional peak services from London handled by both fleets.