Used offensive language at a conductor

[Need help]

Hi

I am new to this forum but would appreciate any advice.

I recently and naively boarded a train without a ticket, I was issued a penalty fare notice and paid this immediately upon returning home. However when leaving the train I am being accused of using offensive language towards the conductor on board. This has been escalated whereby I have received a letter from northern rails debt recovery and prosecutions team.

I rang them to confirm the charges and they state the non payment of fare is satisfied and the issue is due to offensive language being used.

My questions relate to
1. As I have paid the fair and it is now considered settled then I assume this matter is now dealt with and there can be no further punishment.

2. The offensive language in question, is this a bye law offence and typically is this settled out of court or to train operators really like to pursue such instances?

Any help would be massively appreciated. Thanks

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload an image of the letter received with all personal details and any other details which would enable you to be identified completely obscured?

This will enable advice specific to your circumstances to be provided.

 

[ainsworth74]

As mentioned by @Titfield it would be helpful to see redacated paperwork however speaking in more general terms with regards to your two questions.

1. As I have paid the fair and it is now considered settled then I assume this matter is now dealt with and there can be no further punishment.

As the penalty fare has been paid that should be the end of the matter. Northern could theoretically cancel it, refund the payment to you and then issue proceedings for fare evasion but considering you've spoken to them on the phone and they've confirmed that they're not taking further action I think you can safely assume that the matter is closed. I would, if you remember, note down the date, time and name of the person you spoke with in case you need to make referrence to it in the future. But the fare aspect of this I would say is closed.

2. The offensive language in question, is this a bye law offence and typically is this settled out of court or to train operators really like to pursue such instances?

Yes, Byelaw 6(1) would seem to cover the situation:

6. Unacceptable behaviour​

No person shall:

1. use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway
2. behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway
3. write, draw, paint or fix anything on the railway
4. soil any part of the railway
5. damage or detach any part of the railway
6. spit on the railway
7. drop litter or leave waste on the railway
8. molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway

As with most other byelaw offences the maximum penalty would be a £1,000 fine (but it is unlikely to be that much unless you have a decent level of earnings).

We don't see many examples of people being prosecuted for this particular issue so it's hard to say. Typically Northern are one of the operators that is more open to settling fare evasion matters out of court. But I would not be surprised if they were more reluctant to settle something like this where one of their staff members has faced abuse. Certainly, speaking in a personal capacity, if I were in charge of Northern's prosecutions section I wouldn't settle with someone who potentially abused my staff.

However the paperwork may reveal more so do feel free to post it up (with personal details removed).

 

[Need help]

As mentioned by @Titfield it would be helpful to see redacated paperwork however speaking in more general terms with regards to your two questions.


As the penalty fare has been paid that should be the end of the matter. Northern could theoretically cancel it, refund the payment to you and then issue proceedings for fare evasion but considering you've spoken to them on the phone and they've confirmed that they're not taking further action I think you can safely assume that the matter is closed. I would, if you remember, note down the date, time and name of the person you spoke with in case you need to make referrence to it in the future. But the fare aspect of this I would say is closed.


Yes, Byelaw 6(1) would seem to cover the situation:



As with most other byelaw offences the maximum penalty would be a £1,000 fine (but it is unlikely to be that much unless you have a decent level of earnings).

We don't see many examples of people being prosecuted for this particular issue so it's hard to say. Typically Northern are one of the operators that is more open to settling fare evasion matters out of court. But I would not be surprised if they were more reluctant to settle something like this where one of their staff members has faced abuse. Certainly, speaking in a personal capacity, if I were in charge of Northern's prosecutions section I wouldn't settle with someone who potentially abused my staff.

However the paperwork may reveal more so do feel free to post it up (with personal details removed).

Thanks for your response, I think xxx

 

[AlterEgo]

What did you actually say? Use the exact words. The level of offensiveness will make a difference in how Northern dispose of this, because it is unusual to see them go for this accusation, and they may wish to pursue it to court to generate a news story about staff assaults.

 

[Puffing Devil]

All you can do now is wait up to 6 months for notification of court action. If/when that arrives, post it here for further advice.

Only you know how important it is for you to avoid a criminal record - bye-law offences are spent very quickly and do not normally show up on DBS checks. A solicitor may be able to push for an out-of-court settlement, though as you have already paid up for the Penalty Fare, there's going to be little doubt as to your identity. If they have already taken a statement from the conductor it will come down which version of events is believed if it goes to trial, and the odds on you challenging it would not be great.

 

[Need help]

All you can do now is wait up to 6 months for notification of court action. If/when that arrives, post it here for further advice.

Only you know how important it is for you to avoid a criminal record - bye-law offences are spent very quickly and do not normally show up on DBS checks. A solicitor may be able to push for an out-of-court settlement, though as you have already paid up for the Penalty Fare, there's going to be little doubt as to your identity. If they have already taken a statement from the conductor it will come down which version of events is believed if it goes to trial, and the odds on you challenging it would not be great.

Thanks for your response, what I am questioning is whether to respond to the prosecution letter from the train operator myself or use a solicitor which at present appears to upwards of £2.5k

 

[WesternLancer]

Looking at this thread it occurs to me -

- can't recall other cases of advice requests for a case of being offensive to a member of staff
- it may be helpful for the OP to say what they said as @AlterEgo posts - or if they do not wish to do that to tell us on a scale of 1 - 10 how offensive they thought they were (or perhaps if they do a job and someone said what the OP said to the conductor to them in the course of their job how they would consider it on that scale)

Is it useful advice to suggest the OP write a contrite letter of apology about their behaviour to Northern Trains, specifically stating their regret, stating that they would like their apology to be passed to the member of staff concerned and that they very much regret their behaviour. I would have thought such a letter could not do any harm (though I suppose that it could be used in court as an admission that they were indeed offensive, but if it came to court - to deny it the OP would be planning to lie in court - which I suspect is a worse offense than the language / behaviour itself).

EDIT - my point struck through in the light of advice put lower down in post #17

 

[ainsworth74]

(though I suppose that it could be used in court as an admission that they were indeed offensive, but if it came to court - to deny it the OP would be planning to lie in court - which I suspect is a worse offense than the language / behaviour itself)

Well perjury can get you up to seven years in prison and a fine so somewhat worse than just a fine

 

[Need help]

Xxx

 

[AlterEgo]

My actions were not said directly to the conductor but rather as I walked away and off the train. Prior to that I had been cooperative in giving my details albeit frustrated. Absolutely nothing was personal however unfortunately frustration got telhe better if me

It depends on what was said. A "this is f***ing bull****" said in frustration and not to the member of staff is on the low end of the scale, for example. Any insult to or about the staff member is worse eg: "you are a lowlife jobsworth", and anything personal or infringing a protected characteristic at the top end of the scale.

They may have bodycam evidence of what was said and the manner in which it was said.

 

[jamiearmley]

Semantic, perhaps: but it's possibly important to understand you were not dealing with a conductor on a Northern train.

Northern conductors cannot issue penalty fare notices.

It is more likely that you were dealing with a Revenue Officer, who would indeed most likely have been wearing a body camera.

A small distinction, but perhaps an important one.

 

[Need help]

Semantic, perhaps: but it's possibly important to understand you were not dealing with a conductor on a Northern train.

Northern conductors cannot issue penalty fare notices.

It is more likely that you were dealing with a Revenue Officer, who would indeed most likely have been wearing a body camera.

A small distinction, but perhaps an important one.

Is this quite common? In your experience/opinion how are these issues usually dealt with. Sorry for all the questions however I am extremely anxious.

 

[skyhigh]

Is this quite common? In your experience/opinion how are these issues usually dealt with. Sorry for all the questions however I am extremely anxious.

It is fairly rare for offences of this nature to be dealt with but generally they do get followed through the whole way if reported, particularly if there is bodycam evidence. Revenue officers normally do have bodycams so you should expect there to be a record of exactly what you said/did.

It really depends on exactly what you said or did as to how likely they are to want to prosecute. You will know how bad it was, all we have is your side of the story so we can't really comment.

For what it's worth they have used examples of abuse and the resulting prosecutions to 'sell' the use of bodycams to grades where wearing them isn't compulsory, i.e. conductors and gateline staff, and also to show that they do take abuse of staff seriously.

 

[Need help]

Thanks for sharing,

 

[island]

Thanks for sharing, in such instances does this still come under a byelaw or RORA 1889 or other?

See post 3 above.

 

[Cantab26]

Is it useful advice to suggest the OP write a contrite letter of apology about their behaviour to Northern Trains, specifically stating their regret, stating that they would like their apology to be passed to the member of staff concerned and that they very much regret their behaviour. I would have thought such a letter could not do any harm (though I suppose that it could be used in court as an admission that they were indeed offensive, but if it came to court - to deny it the OP would be planning to lie in court - which I suspect is a worse offense than the language / behaviour itself).

The OP should not do this under any circumstances and would be well advised not to contact Northern again about the matter for the timebeing.

If potential proceedings are intimated or commenced then the OP can come back for tailored advice once the position is known.

 

[Need help]

The OP should not do this under any circumstances and would be well advised not to contact Northern again about the matter for the timebeing.

If potential proceedings are intimated or commenced then the OP can come back for tailored advice once the position is known.

Why would you suggest that? They have asked for my version of events?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why would you suggest that? They have asked for my version of events?

Giving your version of events may not be in your best interests. You are under no compulsion to respond.

 

[Cantab26]

Why would you suggest that? They have asked for my version of events?

Without seeing a copy of the letter (with personal details suitably redacted) then it is impossible to advise you effectively as to the content of any response.

Giving your version of events may not be in your best interests. You are under no compulsion to respond.

Exactly. There is a significant risk of inadvertent self-incrimination unless we see what’s in the letter first.

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP should not do this under any circumstances and would be well advised not to contact Northern again about the matter for the timebeing.

If potential proceedings are intimated or commenced then the OP can come back for tailored advice once the position is known.

Thanks for giving your view on my point @tspaul26 . Given your experience and knowledge as demonstrated on this forum before I think the OP should take that on board. I will also edit my post up thread.

 

[Cantab26]

Thanks for giving your view on my point @tspaul26 . Given your experience and knowledge as demonstrated on this forum before I think the OP should take that on board. I will also edit my post up thread.

Don’t get me wrong: there may be merit in sending such a (suitably worded) letter, but without seeing the exact text of the letter from Northern first it would be fraught with peril.

 

[Need help]

Thanks for the response and advise

 

[WesternLancer]

Don’t get me wrong: there may be merit in sending such a (suitably worded) letter, but without seeing the exact text of the letter from Northern first it would be fraught with peril.

Thanks - well the OP could upload a personal info redacted copy of that if they wish, and get advice on wording of any reply / suggested amends here if the OP wants to consider that approach. Esp if that is a viable option for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2023 ==

However as stated earlier in the thread there is potential bodycam footage?

Is that a problem do you think? - after all the footage would presumably show what you said, but you know what you said (I assume) and no one else (well no one here) is going to see that footage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may be best not to post it because this sort of case is extremely rare and so easily identifiable, but I think a lot of it indeed does come down to what exactly was said.

This might be overkill if it was "oh, f off" or something, and indeed this sort of prosecution is rare, and I suspect a typical RPI is probably told to "f off" several times a day. But if it was a racist or homophobic slur, for instance, then the TOC may be effectively obliged to pursue the matter as otherwise they may find themselves subject to a discrimination suit from the member of staff involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can post the letter, please do, suitably redacted. I'm saying it may be best not to post the precise nature of the swearing, as if the TOC is reading they'll know which case it refers to because these are so rare, and as such anything you post here is probably tantamount to an admission to them of the words you used.

This is different from a typical fare dodging case as TOCs process hundreds of these at a time so wouldn't be able to identify a specific case.

 

[Need help]

This is a copy of what i received

 

[AlterEgo]

Where is the allegation of use of offensive language?

 

[Need help]

Where is the allegation of use of offensive language?

There is not I

 

[AlterEgo]

There is not I had to have this confirmed with the operator

Confirmed in correspondence?