Begging getting more common on the railway?

[Merle Haggard]

overground north of the river you got often those roma with accordions

When I worked in London they appeared on the Underground in the late 1990s

Always with someone wanting money; the noise was so hideous but, no matter how much money people handed over, they carried on making it

 

[Peter0124]

Most of the asking for things on trains around Glasgow are "Do you have a lighter"

 

[Ediswan]

I remember a kid on the Circle Line who'd jump as the doors closed and start to play an accordion; he was quite proficient, and, unlike most modern buskers, didn't use a backing track.

A few years ago I can recall a small band jumping on the tube, playing, then switching cars at the next stop.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Giving money, or even buying a cup of tea, whilst it may feel like the right thing to do, often isn't.
By giving money you're possibly helping them get another can of Special Brew. Whilst there's an argument that if someone is on the streets a beer could make it more bearable, and I do have some sympathy with that view, it does make it harder the the individual to get help from the services geared to help them. If they've had a drink, most hostels and shelters won't allow them in until they sober up again. If you buy a beggar a cup of tea or a steak bake, that's at best another thing stopping them going to a shelter or soup kitchen (where other support is often available). At worst they've already been bought half a dozen that morning and it'll just go in the bin.

Ask yourself why you're giving them a 50p/buying them a cuppa or a sausage roll, and be honest with yourself. If you're doing it just to make yourself feel less guilty (which is understandable, I've definitely done so) you need to ask yourself if it's really the best way to help. Many of these well-intentioned acts can make it harder for these people to turn things around. This may sound harsh, but many who work with homeless people will say much the same things. If ever there was a situation that exemplifies the old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions, it's the way people react to the unhoused.

 

[jon0844]

Interestingly on a couple of occasions when I worked in London I was approached on stations by young women who were 'stranded' and needed 'money towards the fare home'. 'Even better', I told them, 'I'll buy you a ticket - follow me to the booking office'. They always disappeared on the way, so at least I couldn't feel guilty about possibly leaving someone in danger.

Some people would accept a ticket, because they immediately went to get a refund. I assume these days if someone bought a ticket from a TVM with a card, they might be asked for the card in order to get a refund so they aren't going to want that.

A bit like the reason I expect nobody sells old Travelcards anymore, as the 'seller' isn't likely to be set up to take cards.

 

[BlueLeanie]

According to the Governments own statistics 21% of the UK population now live in poverty. That is probably why we are seeing a rise in begging on trains and elsewhere.

The official method of calculating poverty is this:

Households are considered to be below the UK poverty line if their income is 60% below the median household income after housing costs for that year.

So, it's almost impossible to change. Increase wages, but then the average increases and you still have people earning less than average salary. Intervene on housing costs and it distorts the market with some higher income families benefitting and increasing the median household income after housings costs.

Any politician, organisation, or charity that promises to "eradicate poverty" either doesn't understand how poverty is calculated or is deliberately trying to mislead you.

The only thing that can really be done is to change the way the poverty is calculated to take people out of poverty or to provide targetted support to mitigate against the consequencies of poverty.

 

[Chester1]

The official method of calculating poverty is this:



So, it's almost impossible to change. Increase wages, but then the average increases and you still have people earning less than average salary. Intervene on housing costs and it distorts the market with some higher income families benefitting and increasing the median household income after housings costs.

Any politician, organisation, or charity that promises to "eradicate poverty" either doesn't understand how poverty is calculated or is deliberately trying to mislead you.

The only thing that can really be done is to change the way the poverty is calculated to take people out of poverty or to provide targetted support to mitigate against the consequencies of poverty.

Below 60% of median income being in poverty is a method that is delibrately designed to be unending or to lead a very equal society rather than just end poor living conditions. There can be some very perverse consequences of the using median income e.g. if state pension goes up then so does the median income therefore the number of under 66 year olds in poverty increases.... There should be a calculation based on income vs cost of living in an area.

Giving money, or even buying a cup of tea, whilst it may feel like the right thing to do, often isn't.
By giving money you're possibly helping them get another can of Special Brew. Whilst there's an argument that if someone is on the streets a beer could make it more bearable, and I do have some sympathy with that view, it does make it harder the the individual to get help from the services geared to help them. If they've had a drink, most hostels and shelters won't allow them in until they sober up again. If you buy a beggar a cup of tea or a steak bake, that's at best another thing stopping them going to a shelter or soup kitchen (where other support is often available). At worst they've already been bought half a dozen that morning and it'll just go in the bin.

Ask yourself why you're giving them a 50p/buying them a cuppa or a sausage roll, and be honest with yourself. If you're doing it just to make yourself feel less guilty (which is understandable, I've definitely done so) you need to ask yourself if it's really the best way to help. Many of these well-intentioned acts can make it harder for these people to turn things around. This may sound harsh, but many who work with homeless people will say much the same things. If ever there was a situation that exemplifies the old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions, it's the way people react to the unhoused.

Its very difficult. I occasionally buy sandwiches but I never give money directly, only to homeless charities. I am amazed when people give money to beggars on trains for tickets.

 

[BluePenguin]

If you are begging in Middlesbrough you must be really down on your luck!

Why? Because the area is very deprived and nobody has enough for themselves let alone to give beggars?

 

[Wivenswold]

The best way of helping the homeless is to donate to established charities that fill the gap in social care and provide shelters, food and an opportunity to get off the streets for good, or even better volunteer for a soup kitchen or shelter.

The instinct of most people is empathy and a want to help other humans in distress, just witness peoples' behaviour in a disaster. Unfortunately that instinctive response isn't always the best approach, sometimes for complex reasons.

On the poverty front, most of us have been slowly drifting towards it over the last 30-40 years. Back in the 60s and 70s it was perfectly normal for one parent to stay home and look after the kids, afford to buy a newish car every few years and still afford a holiday every year. As recently as 25 years ago it was the expectation that youngsters would buy a house within a couple of years of starting work, now it takes them a decade to get a deposit unless they get a lucky break. It's remarkable that this has gone virtually un-noticed, probably because it was a gradual decline in wealth that suddenly accelerated in the last year.

 

[BJames]

Tube beggars use the gangways on deep level all the time. I see it almost daily. One the other day on Circle line was being outwardly quite aggressive and trying to shame people ignoring him by shouting in their faces. It was quite extreme and unpleasant actually. I know the regular faces on West Anglia London Overground - one guy has his pockets absolutely jangling with coins, the other lady looks well dressed enough that when she approached me the first time I was caught completely off guard as I couldn't understand what she was trying to say to me.

This one is potentially crossing into scamming more than begging - I can't remember the exact ins and outs but one approached me at Kings Cross, started the conversation about the last train back as he was about to have an operation for a nasty accident, showed me his leg which had been done with SfX type make up and it looked really gruesome, like almost made me recoil. Then said that he was down to his last pound or something and needed money to get home. I might have actually believed this one if it a) hadn't happened to my dad before, and he told me to be wary of this scam, and b) if he hadn't pivoted to quickly from the last train back to asking for money. I told him that I would go and get a member of staff to support him and he quickly disappeared. It was quite intense and I looked online afterwards and found similar threads about this scam at St Pancras and other places, apparently quite common in Europe too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Its very difficult. I occasionally buy sandwiches but I never give money directly, only to homeless charities. I am amazed when people give money to beggars on trains for tickets.

If I'm going to buy food or a cuppa for someone (which I do sometimes do), I ask them if they want it first. Lots of people think that doing that is better than giving change, as it means it won't go on booze or anything else harmful... but if they're begging in a busy area you almost certainly won't be the first person to have that thought. If they've already been given three sandwiches that morning they won't want another, but they can't turn it down if they weren't asked first.

If you have time and they're not aggressive or incoherent, the best you can do is have a chat with them for a few minutes. Treating them like a human being for a bit can do far more good than throwing change or low-quality food at them.

(Source: I volunteered at a shelter a few years ago, the induction alone was quite eye-opening!).

 

[Chester1]

The best way of helping the homeless is to donate to established charities that fill the gap in social care and provide shelters, food and an opportunity to get off the streets for good, or even better volunteer for a soup kitchen or shelter.

The instinct of most people is empathy and a want to help other humans in distress, just witness peoples' behaviour in a disaster. Unfortunately that instinctive response isn't always the best approach, sometimes for complex reasons.

On the poverty front, most of us have been slowly drifting towards it over the last 30-40 years. Back in the 60s and 70s it was perfectly normal for one parent to stay home and look after the kids, afford to buy a newish car every few years and still afford a holiday every year. As recently as 25 years ago it was the expectation that youngsters would buy a house within a couple of years of starting work, now it takes them a decade to get a deposit unless they get a lucky break. It's remarkable that this has gone virtually un-noticed, probably because it was a gradual decline in wealth that suddenly accelerated in the last year.

Its similar problem in other western countries. I looked at options for emigration a few months back and with my work experience there is no city of any real size in an English speaking country where I would have a better relative cost of living than the UK outside of the South East. The going rate for my job in Dublin is 20% higher, its 40% higher in Vancouver but have a look at rents and house prices.... same for Sydney, Perth and Auckland. Even smaller cities like Halifax (Canada) were bad. I think some people who love to hate the Tories think a change of government will sort it out. It will hopefully improve things a bit but there are fundamental structural reasons why western standard of living is declining relative to rest of world. The exception in the western world is eastern europe but its just them playing catch up since 1990 and the growth will peter out once they have caught up with western europe.

If I'm going to buy food or a cuppa for someone (which I do sometimes do), I ask them if they want it first. Lots of people think that doing that is better than giving change, as it means it won't go on booze or anything else harmful... but if they're begging in a busy area you almost certainly won't be the first person to have that thought. If they've already been given three sandwiches that morning they won't want another, but they can't turn it down if they weren't asked first.

If you have time and they're not aggressive or incoherent, the best you can do is have a chat with them for a few minutes. Treating them like a human being for a bit can do far more good than throwing change or low-quality food at them.

(Source: I volunteered at a shelter a few years ago, the induction alone was quite eye-opening!).

Thats interesting, although I struggle in a range of social situations so I don’t know what I would say!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thats interesting, although I struggle in a range of social situations so I don’t know what I would say!

I'm also on the spectrum, so "small talk" can be difficult and there are times when I don't have the words or worry that I'll put my foot in it... but if I'm in the right frame of mind and have the time, it might be something simple like "you doing okay, mate?" just to show them you aren't hostile. Of course you do need to be a bit careful, as some of these people will have complex issues and may behave unpredictably... but showing a bit of humanity can go a long way. It's so easy to just keep your head down and not engage, and sometimes you have to- but if you do have the time, and feel safe enough, a quick friendly chat can have a big impact.

To get us back on topic, I'd definitely be wary of beggars on trains or inside stations. These are often parts of organised gangs and usually not genuinely unhoused.

 

[PupCuff]

Not on trains, but at a station, Birmingham New Street is a nightmare, they're everywhere.

I'll challenge it but many of my colleagues won't because they'll spit at you, verbally abuse you, throw stuff at you. Police never seem to bother dealing with them properly even though what they're doing is clearly illegal.

Intimidating and frustrating.

 

[londonbridge]

When I see them on a train claiming to be raising money to get into a shelter for the night, my take on it is:

1) You’ve got a ticket, so you’ve spent money on a ticket which you could have put towards the shelter.

2) You don’t have a ticket and are risking a penalty fare which would leave you with even less money to put towards the shelter…

 

[lookapigeon]

The tissue beggars are particularly prevalent on the Piccadilly line. They often have a laminated and computer printed card wth their sob story on, you can tell it is very organised. The best thing to do is not to engage in any conversation, and they shall soon move onto the next marks if they don't get the response they're desiring for (money!).

 

[occone]

I'd definitely be wary of beggars on trains or inside stations. These are often parts of organised gangs and usually not genuinely unhoused.

Absolutely.

Best approach is a simple but firm "no thankyou", or "sorry pal". Even if someone starts with their story and doesn't immediately ask for change, I've found just saying "sorry, I can't help" is enough to interrupt the flow.

I've not experienced this on trains or stations though, it seems extra aggressive as you're less able to just walk away. A bit of politeness and respect definitely seems wise, they probably don't want to be there either!

 

[duffield]

I get around the network quite a lot, and begging at larger stations is very common everywhere, but I only seem to ever see begging actually on the trains when I get within about 30 miles of London.

 

[YorksLad12]

Not only do I not have any spare change, I have no cash at all, though I'm always polite about it and acknowledge the request (I was brought up proper). There's usually one bloke on Leeds Station, who gets a bit worked up after lots of people say no; there used to be a woman tacking her way along the Northern Concourse. They never try it in the southern concourse, of course, the ticket office is their limit so they can make an escape. What I've noticed is that they tend to go for elderly women or people who look like overseas tourists who might not speak English that well - both of which really wind me up.

One of the worst I ever had (after a fashion) was when I walked into Kings Cross, and noticed a well-dressed Nina Sonanya lookalike staring at the screens. She spotted me looking at her as I walked past and said "Do you have any spare change?" I wasn't sure if she was taking the mick of if the London scroats are just better dressed... The absolute worst was three of them working the queue for the bus one night.

 

[Kite159]

When I see them on a train claiming to be raising money to get into a shelter for the night, my take on it is:

1) You’ve got a ticket, so you’ve spent money on a ticket which you could have put towards the shelter.

Chances are they won't have a ticket, they probably know most of the access points into LU which don't go via barriers or board a train from a station which doesn't have barriers then change to LU.

------

Reminds me of a beggar a few years ago (2017/18 time) when I was at Rochdale station around 10pm on a Saturday evening after bashing the Metrolink stops. Tried to claim she wanted money to get a ticket back home to St Annes (or another station on the Blackpool South line). Something which even if you had a ticket would have been impossible to make the journey.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not only do I not have any spare change, I have no cash at all, though I'm always polite about it and acknowledge the request (I was brought up proper). There's usually one bloke on Leeds Station, who gets a bit worked up after lots of people say no; there used to be a woman tacking her way along the Northern Concourse. They never try it in the southern concourse, of course, the ticket office is their limit so they can make an escape. What I've noticed is that they tend to go for elderly women or people who look like overseas tourists who might not speak English that well - both of which really wind me up.

One of the worst I ever had (after a fashion) was when I walked into Kings Cross, and noticed a well-dressed Nina Sonanya lookalike staring at the screens. She spotted me looking at her as I walked past and said "Do you have any spare change?" I wasn't sure if she was taking the mick of if the London scroats are just better dressed... The absolute worst was three of them working the queue for the bus one night.

The seeking out of foreign students or tourists is definitely a thing for the more aggressive and organised beggars... though the same thing happens in many European cities, particularly Brussels Midi and Frankfurt-Main Hbf. In fact at Frankfurt was some of the most brazen panhandling I've ever seen- a middle-aged woman who approached me at the counter of a pretzel stand and, after I made it clear I wasn't going to help, tried to grab the change from my hand as the stallholder handed it to me!

 

[Archvile]

Who actually engages or gives to them??

Usually white 18-25 girls.. The woke ones with the dreadlocks types I've noticed.

I blank them completely, not worth the risk. If they persist, a strong "NYET" in the corresponding Russian accent usually sees them off...

 

[450.emu]

The new Class 710s are perfect for the very well spoken guys I've seen (always around Hackney Downs) waiting for the train to be in motion before getting everyone's attention (rather like a teacher dealing with an unruly classroom) asking all to provide a pound or whatever they can (sometimes these guys trainers look newer than mine ) sometimes with or without cardboard signage, sometimes in smart cargo trousers that don't seem that grubby that go well with the Air Max 270s that haven't seemed to see much of a hard life...

Happened this evening on way home from Liverpool Street. Very well spoken middle class accent, not a stereotypical Cockney Geezer wanting a cup of tea. I guess cost of living affects all, but the majority of passengers just stayed glued to their phones and papers as he walked between sections of the train (perhaps moving to the rear 5 cars on the 10-car 710 at one of the stops)...

 

[Thirteen]

When you live in a major city, you become immune to the train and station beggars which is not fair but you can't blame people for not trusting them. It's not only a UK problem, I've seen it in the US in places like New York, Boston and Chicago.

Weirdly the only places in London I never see beggars on public transport is the DLR which considering there have no barriers is strange, the other is the tram.

 

[Mojo]

In my experience I’ve found begging and busking on the Underground has got better in the last few years, I’m not sure if it’s economic factors or Brexit that has improved the situation, but people I know the that it’s a lot easier to deal with the organised criminal gangs (who made up a lot of the problem historically). Indeed, I haven’t seen or heard of the musicians since pre Covid.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The tissue-sellers used to be a common sight on Thameslink trains between East Croydon and London Bridge, but I’ve not seen so many of late.
They can ply this route all day as they can get off at London Bridge, cross the island platform, and board the next train back to Croydon. They know they’ll encounter some Gatwick-bound returning tourists, who tend to be more gullible.
Plying their trade between Croydon and London Victoria is nigh-on impossible, as they’d need to pass through ticket barriers multiple times.

 

[Taunton]

According to the Governments own statistics 21% of the UK population now live in poverty. That is probably why we are seeing a rise in begging on trains and elsewhere.

I think you will find a significant proportion of the "beggars", at least in London, are recent arrivals by Ryanair from a certain Eastern European diaspora. You will find exactly the same on the Metros of Paris, Milan, Barcelona, and even (to my surprise) Moscow.

 

[Bluejays]

I think you will find a significant proportion of the "beggars", at least in London, are recent arrivals by Ryanair from a certain Eastern European diaspora. You will find exactly the same on the Metros of Paris, Milan, Barcelona, and even (to my surprise) Moscow.

Was very pleasantly surprised to see very few on a recent trip to Paris. No 'surveys' or other annoyances at gare du Nord or the touristy sites.

Could remember the French police getting stick for treatment of the Roma on the TV. Well I'd say, from my short experience that it appears to have worked.

 

[trebor79]

The ones that amuse me are those that stand at the end of the tube carriage and deliver a very earnest and well-rehearsed sod story. When nobody take that bait, they then storm off down the carriage effing and jeffing about nobody helping in a passive aggressive manner, then do the same routine all over again.
I usually notice that these people:
Appear to be wearing clean clothes
Appear to be washed and groomed (to a degree, got to look a bit scruffy of course)
Don't smell. Truly homeless people who have no means to wash etc stink (sorry, there's no delicate way of putting it)

 

[railfan99]

Apologies for what will be a dumb question to all you well informed 'local yokels', but what do 'tissue seller' beggars do? That is, what's their modus operandi?