Another rail link into Italy closed due to a landslide

[deltic]

Auto-translate from an Italian paper

Roads closed and international railway interrupted in France, just across the border with Italy and the Frejus tunnel in the Maurienne valley, due to a landslide in the afternoon in Saint-Andrè en Savoie .

A dramatic video on X (Twitter) shows the landslide engulfing the railway and motorway https://twitter.com/ArthurM40330824/status/1696052802882064644

SNCF booking engine suggests the line will be closed until at least Thursday

 

[Beebman]

There's a photo on X (Twitter) of the aftermath from Clément Beaune, Minister Delegate for Transport:

https://twitter.com/CBeaune/status/1695938350132109812

Auto-translate:

After the massive landslide that occurred yesterday in #Maurienne , our public services are mobilized to restore road and rail traffic as quickly as possible. Absolute priority for the safety of all; a return to normal will take several days.

 

[deltic]

I'm meant to be travelling that way next week - hope it is fixed by then but it looks pretty bad

 

[30907]

I'm meant to be travelling that way next week - hope it is fixed by then but it looks pretty bad

Looks as though the railway itself is largely protected but SNCF say the inspection of the slip by helicopter planned for today has been postponed due to bad weather. The slope will need stabilising...

Doesn't look good. This is what the regional director of SNCF Reseaux is reported as saying today
« Traffic between Saint-Michel-de-Maurienne and Modane interrupted UFN and certainly for several weeks».

https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_dive...erres-tombes-lors-eboulement-vallee-maurienne.

(The gist: 10k cubic metres of rock have fallen, much more than initially thought, considerable damage to railway. )

 

[D6130]

I have just received notification from my retired SNCF friend that the Chambery-Modane 'Maurienne' line - the only direct main line between France and Italy - has been completely blocked by a large rock fall, estimated to be about 700 cubic metres of material, between St Michel Valloire and Modane. All through traffic has been stopped and the line is closed until further notice. This line carries a huge tonnage of freight every day - as well as a considerable passenger traffic, of both SNCF TGVs and Trenitalia Freccierosse - and with the Gotthard base tunnel still partially blocked by the derailment, it couldn't have come at a worse time. RFF engineers estimate that clearance, repair and reinforcement works will take several weeks, if not months. As well as having a big effect on the economies of both countries, this is a big worry for my wife and me, as we are booked on a Paris-Milano TGV on 4th October.

 

[Shutax]

I have just received notification from my retired SNCF friend that the Chambery-Modane 'Maurienne' line - the only direct main line between France and Italy - has been completely blocked by a large rock fall, estimated to be about 700 cubic metres of material, between St Michel Valloire and Modane. All through traffic has been stopped and the line is closed until further notice. This line carries a huge tonnage of freight every day - as well as a considerable passenger traffic, of both SNCF TGVs and Trenitalia Freccierosse - and with the Gotthard base tunnel still partially blocked by the derailment, it couldn't have come at a worse time. RFF engineers estimate that clearance, repair and reinforcement works will take several weeks, if not months. As well as having a big effect on the economies of both countries, this is a big worry for my wife and me, as we are booked on a Paris-Milano TGV on 4th October.

We are supposed to be travelling Paris-Milan on Saturday to connect with the Intercity Notte to Sicily. Have just been rerouted by the travel company (Byway travel) Paris-Basel-Zurich-Milan. Quick work on their part.

 

[deltic]

I have just received notification from my retired SNCF friend that the Chambery-Modane 'Maurienne' line - the only direct main line between France and Italy - has been completely blocked by a large rock fall, estimated to be about 700 cubic metres of material, between St Michel Valloire and Modane. All through traffic has been stopped and the line is closed until further notice. This line carries a huge tonnage of freight every day - as well as a considerable passenger traffic, of both SNCF TGVs and Trenitalia Freccierosse - and with the Gotthard base tunnel still partially blocked by the derailment, it couldn't have come at a worse time. RFF engineers estimate that clearance, repair and reinforcement works will take several weeks, if not months. As well as having a big effect on the economies of both countries, this is a big worry for my wife and me, as we are booked on a Paris-Milano TGV on 4th October.

Given they are now saying weeks before it is re-opened I have rebooked Paris to Milan via Zurich

 

[MarcVD]

I have just received notification from my retired SNCF friend that the Chambery-Modane 'Maurienne' line - the only direct main line between France and Italy - has been completely blocked by a large rock fall, estimated to be about 700 cubic metres of material, between St Michel Valloire and Modane. All through traffic has been stopped and the line is closed until further notice. This line carries a huge tonnage of freight every day - as well as a considerable passenger traffic, of both SNCF TGVs and Trenitalia Freccierosse - and with the Gotthard base tunnel still partially blocked by the derailment, it couldn't have come at a worse time. RFF engineers estimate that clearance, repair and reinforcement works will take several weeks, if not months. As well as having a big effect on the economies of both countries, this is a big worry for my wife and me, as we are booked on a Paris-Milano TGV on 4th October.

Apparently it's more several thousands tons of rock rather than just seven hundreds. But it's not the only line between France and Italy. You can also go via Ventimiglia, along the Mediterranean coast.

 

[norbitonflyer]

We are supposed to be travelling Paris-Milan on Saturday to connect with the Intercity Notte to Sicily. Have just been rerouted by the travel company (Byway travel) Paris-Basel-Zurich-Milan. Quick work on their part.

Note that that will be via the old (scenic) Gotthard route as the base tunnel is still blocked - whether you consider that a bonus probably depends on whether time or scenery is more important.

 

[DanielB]

In this case taking a direct EC from Basel to Milan via the Lötschbergtunnel would seem to be much quicker indeed. Though at certain moments this will require a change in, I presume, Bern.
And these ECs can be really crowded.

Edit: Not really quicker as there seem to be track works in Italy resulting in bustitution of Domodossola - Milan until 10 September.

 

[AlbertBeale]

In this case taking a direct EC from Basel to Milan via the Lötschbergtunnel would seem to be much quicker indeed. Though at certain moments this will require a change in, I presume, Bern.
And these ECs can be really crowded.

Edit: Not really quicker as there seem to be track works in Italy resulting in bustitution of Domodossola - Milan until 10 September.

So it looks like three "consecutive" rail access routes to Italy are messed up to varying degrees at the moment then. Nothing normal after the Ventimiglia route [OK - Cuneo too, but that's a bit of an extreme option for a long-distance international journey] until you get to the narrow gauge to Tirano. So for through-running international links it's only the slow and limited capacity old Gotthard all the way round from Ventimiglia to the Brenner.

And regarding freight, does the Brenner route have much spare freight capacity for things that can be routed round that way? The coast line through Ventimiglia can't be great for freight on account of the single track sections in places which already inhibit some passenger service frequencies.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In this case taking a direct EC from Basel to Milan via the Lötschbergtunnel would seem to be much quicker indeed. Though at certain moments this will require a change in, I presume, Bern.
And these ECs can be really crowded.
Edit: Not really quicker as there seem to be track works in Italy resulting in bustitution of Domodossola - Milan until 10 September.

You could also go Paris-Milan via Geneva/Lausanne (TGV) and the Simplon tunnel (EC), though even that route is disrupted in Italy until mid-September, as you say.

PS Just been reading that the Mont Blanc road tunnel will close from September 4 for 15 weeks for scheduled repair work.
Apparently the Brenner rail route was also briefly closed by bad weather this week.
The eastern Alpine routes into Italy look OK, at least.

 

[railfan99]

The eastern Alpine routes into Italy look OK, at least.

In early October 2023, I am booked from Zurich to Milano Centrale on EC321 (1510 hours ex Z), arriving at 1850 hours for the 2010 hours ICN1963 to Palermo.

Am I correct that (as of today) this rail route remains 'OK'? Apologies for asking a basic question.

 

[Nunners]

In early October 2023, I am booked from Zurich to Milano Centrale on EC321 (1510 hours ex Z), arriving at 1850 hours for the 2010 hours ICN1963 to Palermo.

Am I correct that (as of today) this rail route remains 'OK'? Apologies for asking a basic question.

The Gotthard base tunnel is closed so the train will travel via the old route. It looks like EC321 is retimed to leave Zuerich at 14:33, arriving at 18:50.

(Screenshot from DB app showing EC321)

 

[158801]

If anyone needs to get from Paris to Italy without getting reservations on SNCF there's a TER train from gare d l'est which runs "most" days at around 0640.

It goes to Mulhouse. From there a regional train to Basel. You can travel through Switzerland to Domodossola then another regional train to Milan.

 

[AlbertBeale]

In early October 2023, I am booked from Zurich to Milano Centrale on EC321 (1510 hours ex Z), arriving at 1850 hours for the 2010 hours ICN1963 to Palermo.

Am I correct that (as of today) this rail route remains 'OK'? Apologies for asking a basic question.

I've used that Milan departure to Sicily (albeit on the half of the train that ends up in Syracuse not Palermo); the offering in the morning was limited to coffee (though very good coffee!), so remember to take a bag of food for the next morning while the train runs down the (in many places very attractive) south Italian coast to the ferry, which it doesn't get to until 10am or 11am or so. (There's usually something edible on the ferry itself, and there's time to nip off the train during the short crossing and grab a lunch snack if needed.) And do enjoy your train being shunted on and off of one of the train ferries for that crossing - we're running out of places where that happens now!

And NB - even though it'll be dark leaving Milan at that time of year - the late evening run along the Ligurian cost east of Genoa, through the Cinque Terra area, is worth watching out for.

The Gotthard base tunnel is closed so the train will travel via the old route. It looks like EC321 is retimed to leave Zuerich at 14:33, arriving at 18:50.

(Screenshot from DB app showing EC321)

That's very senisble, making the departure earlier rather than the arrival later.

And Milan station has decent food available if you want a quickish proper meal before setting off on the sleeper (unless you've had your fill in the restaurant car during the Gotthard run of course!).

 

[railfan99]

Thank you both for the excellent advice.

 

[MarcVD]

And NB - even though it'll be dark leaving Milan at that time of year - the late evening run along the Ligurian cost east of Genoa, through the Cinque Terra area, is worth watching out for.

Not really. I did it last year, from La Spezia to Genoa. Most of it is in tunnels. You don't get to see much.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Not really. I did it last year, from La Spezia to Genoa. Most of it is in tunnels. You don't get to see much.

Well - between Genoa and Camogli is in the open; from there to La Spezia is indeed in and out of tunnels of various lengths. But I found the actual Cinque Terra section, where the train emerges from a tunnel and trundles through the station of one of these tiny settlements above the sea, before tunnelling through to the next settlement, rather lovely - though the ratio of tunnel to non-tunnel in what's strictly speaking that real Cinque Terra stretch is indeed higher than much of the line there. But overall there are lots of coast views and sea views between Genoa and La Spezia. I found it worth staying up for! (But maybe living in the middle of a big city means I'm easily satisfied...)

 

[AndrewE]

I thought I remembered a slow line close to the sea, in and out of tunnels, and a faster line in a much longer tunnel inland behind it? The only way to get the sea views was to get a stopping train.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I thought I remembered a slow line close to the sea, in and out of tunnels, and a faster line in a much longer tunnel inland behind it? The only way to get the sea views was to get a stopping train.

Between Genoa and La Spezia there's just the one line - the local trains and the long-distance non-stopping ones are all on the same tracks. Though there are one or two places - Santa Margherita springs to mind - where a station has an extra track so long-distance trains can overtake, and local shorter-distance trains can reverse without blocking through traffic. I can't remember how much freight there is as well on that line - presumably a fair bit since (unlike west of Genoa, where there are single-track sections between there and France) it is all double-track along the coast.

I'm sure there are places on the Italian coast where a faster inland line with more tunnels misses the scenery you get on a stopping train, but not between Genoa and La Spezia. (Nor between Genoa and Ventimiglia; so far, where they've doubled the line by building further back from the coast with more tunnelling, they've abandoned the old route - and hence in some case deprived a town of its railway station, or ended up with one quite a trek from the main part of the town. Though some of the abandoned trackbed winding along the seafront has become a pleasant walking and cycling route.)

 

[deltic]

Latest reports suggest the line will be closed for at least two months.

 

[Clive Rotheram]

I have just received notification from my retired SNCF friend that the Chambery-Modane 'Maurienne' line - the only direct main line between France and Italy - has been completely blocked by a large rock fall, estimated to be about 700 cubic metres of material, between St Michel Valloire and Modane. All through traffic has been stopped and the line is closed until further notice. This line carries a huge tonnage of freight every day - as well as a considerable passenger traffic, of both SNCF TGVs and Trenitalia Freccierosse - and with the Gotthard base tunnel still partially blocked by the derailment, it couldn't have come at a worse time. RFF engineers estimate that clearance, repair and reinforcement works will take several weeks, if not months. As well as having a big effect on the economies of both countries, this is a big worry for my wife and me, as we are booked on a Paris-Milano TGV on 4th October.

My wife and I are also booked on this line for 4th October, by Frecciarossa, and back from Turin on 17th October. I phoned Trenitalia yesterady for an update and was told that the trains are not yet cancelled, with no indication as to when they wil mke a decision. So I'm left with accommodation in Mantova and Turin which I can't yet cancel with certainty, train tickets for which I can't yet get a refund, except -20%, and an inability to book another route or destination with accommdation. It's a kind of limbo. I hope that some indication is given soon of how long the line will be out of operation so that trains can be cancelled and refunds given. I see that no tickets on the line are on sale for October, so I think they've really already decided.

 

[D6130]

My wife and I are also booked on this line for 4th October, by Frecciarossa, and back from Turin on 17th October. I phoned Trenitalia yesterady for an update and was told that the trains are not yet cancelled, with no indication as to when they wil mke a decision. So I'm left with accommodation in Mantova and Turin which I can't yet cancel with certainty, train tickets for which I can't yet get a refund, except -20%, and an inability to book another route or destination with accommdation. It's a kind of limbo. I hope that some indication is given soon of how long the line will be out of operation so that trains can be cancelled and refunds given. I see that no tickets on the line are on sale for October, so I think they've really already decided.

We've gone ahead and booked a TGV from Paris to Nice for 4th October, along with a Trenitalia InterCity from Ventimiglia to Genova, using an SNCF TER local service to connect from Nice to Ventimiglia. We'll spend a couple of nights in Genova - which my wife has been hankering after for a few years - before heading onwards to Tuscany. When the Maurienne line was blocked by another smaller landslide a few years ago - before the start of the Frecciarossa service - we rebooked via Basel and Chiasso (our first trip through the Gotthard Base Tunnel) and SNCF automatically refunded our original booking a few days beforehand. Let's hope that the same happens this time....but I think we can say goodbye to the 68 Euros we've paid for the Italo service from Torino to Firenze. The latest estimate from SNCF Reaseau is that the rockfall is more than ten thousand cubic metres and work to clear the line cannot commence until the cliff face above has been stabilised...which requires permission to access privately-owned land.

 

[Watershed]

work to clear the line cannot commence until the cliff face above has been stabilised...which requires permission to access privately-owned land.

Rather a contrast to the legal position in Britain, whereby railway companies have had a right to enter adjoining private land to effect repairs since the Railway Regulation Act was passed in 1842!

 

[Esker-pades]

How much notice are SNCF and Trenitalia giving passengers booked on effected services?

 

[D6130]

How much notice are SNCF and Trenitalia giving passengers booked on effected services?

A very good question. We're booked to travel from Paris on 4th October and have not yet been advised or offered a refund. I guess they are still hedging their bets on the off chance that the line may be reopened by then....which it won't be. Luckily we have made alternative reservations via Marseille and Ventimiglia and we await the refund details with eager anticipation.

 

[AlbertBeale]

A very good question. We're booked to travel from Paris on 4th October and have not yet been advised or offered a refund. I guess they are still hedging their bets on the off chance that the line may be reopened by then....which it won't be. Luckily we have made alternative reservations via Marseille and Ventimiglia and we await the refund details with eager anticipation.

Are there yet any informed ideas of a likely re-opening date, or at least a "not later than" commitment? That route was an option for me to get back from a trip at the end of the year; but there comes a time when you can't risk leaving it so late that the more affordable tickets on a different route have run out, so have to grab what there is. The lack of information is frustrating.

 

[D6130]

Are there yet any informed ideas of a likely re-opening date, or at least a "not later than" commitment? That route was an option for me to get back from a trip at the end of the year; but there comes a time when you can't risk leaving it so late that the more affordable tickets on a different route have run out, so have to grab what there is. The lack of information is frustrating.

Yes, it's very frustrating but - according to my French railway contacts - their permanent way, electrical and signalling engineers cannot enter the area to even assess the damage and likely repair time until after a geotechnical investigation and stabilisation of the rockface above the line whence the landslip originated. Looking at the Ariel photos,it would appear that the railway has been protected from the majority of the fallen rock by an existing reinforced concrete avalanche shelter, but there is a certain amount of material covering the track at its Eastern end. Given the economic importance of the route - particularly in terms of freight traffic - I suspect that all the stops will be pulled out to obtain the earliest possible reopening....but - being France - there will be a certain amount of bureaucracy to overcome!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

How much notice are SNCF and Trenitalia giving passengers booked on effected services?

I received my cancellation email from SNCF this morning, inviting me to either apply for a refund or rebook for a later date. Any refund requests must be dealt with by the agency with whom the tickets were booked....in our case SNCF Connect.

 

[Esker-pades]

I received my cancellation email from SNCF this morning, inviting me to either apply for a refund or rebook for a later date. Any refund requests must be dealt with by the agency with whom the tickets were booked....in our case SNCF Connect.

That's useful; thanks very much. A fortnight's notice is, I suppose, reasonable. I hope Trenitalia does the same thing for me if required.