Passengers boarding train prior to display on screens

[12LDA28C]

Locomotives were changed, and backed onto trains from a cab with a very poor rearward view, with everyone on board, and even going in and out of open doors meantime, for the first 150 years of railways. If there was any issue with the attaching process one would have thought it would have come out then.

Brilliant. Quoting a process (a loco backed onto a train from the rear cab that caused many collisions and which saw several locomotives written off) and that has long been banned is probably not the best example of a safe method of operation.

 

[800301]

I'm curious as to whether GWR have a similar restriction when it comes to attaching and detaching their 165s and 166s with passengers on board. I'm also not entirely sure that the coupling and splitting of EMUs mentioned elsewhere in the thread is comparable, given the different power source.

There is no issue with coupling a turbo with passengers on and I’ve seen it happen, 387’s and 800 couple and uncouple most of the day with passengers on.

The only time that passengers ideally do not board a train that has coupled or uncoupled is if the relieving driver is not at the train to do a static brake test after which the doors will be released

 

[uglymonkey]

The culture was in no way as risk adverse as it is now then.

 

[WizCastro197]

The London Bridge - Caterham & Tattenham Corner services divide/attach at Purley every half-hour, though the units are now 377s. Passengers still remain onboard; the doors are closed for a few seconds whilst the actual attachment/detachment takes place.

Yes same with Redhill and Eastbourne, I believe also onboard 377s there is a short announcement which explains what the train is doing and to stand away from the doors.

 

[Western Sunset]

Yes same with Redhill and Eastbourne, I believe also onboard 377s there is a short announcement which explains what the train is doing and to stand away from the doors.

Exactly so.
Also lots of announcements pre-detachment to ensure passengers are in the correct portion of the train.

Seems to work fine, day in, day out.

 

[Krokodil]

There is an issue with showing "Preparing" quite late, yes, but I've never heard of one being sent off without boarding, and I've used Euston thousands of times.

Did everyone manage to board though, or did some people who were waiting on the concourse not make it to the gates in time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did everyone manage to board though, or did some people who were waiting on the concourse not make it to the gates in time?

Depends if they were paying attention. But probably - usually if they call late they depart late.

 

[Krokodil]

And if they weren't trampled by the stampede

 

[Horizon22]

There's very little chance it's actually based on some real-world risk factors. For example Southern used to attach and detach 455s at Purley all day for many years. SWR aren't allowed to with passengers onboard. That wasn't based on any actual technical differences with the coupling process, it was just that Southern needed to do it so they did, and SWR don't so they restricted it.

They've done 377s too at places like Horsham, Barnham, Redhill.

It doesn't need to be a blanket removal, but it does need a clear process around it. Advising people both on the train and on the platforms that the doors will close (temporarily), to stand clear and it will then be ready for boarding.

It can be an irritation to have people on a platform at a London terminal whilst staff are trying to do operational issues involving in shunting / splitting / attaching whilst people are asking questions and trying to confirm or only able to board half the train and crowding out one set so it can often be beneficial to ensure the whole process is complete and the train is fully ready before advertising.

This is all an aside from perfectly serviceable trains not being advertised. I'd say in many places its just tradition and culture with no firm logical backing or a desire to not cause confusion in advertising a service too soon whilst other trains are still available that call at all / some of the same stops.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2023 ==

I have never, ever seen a train leave Euston without having boarded. I don't recall it at MYB either.

I have seen it tight at Marylebone before. Often it can come down to the quality and attentiveness of the local control, even to the particular individual on shift.

 

[Starmill]

I have never, ever seen a train leave Euston without having boarded. I don't recall it at MYB either.

At Euston the conductor simply wouldn't go I would say, except for London Overground obviously but their platform numbers aren't suppressed usually. If it were late in the evening at Marylebone the driver may just assume only a small handful of people have shown up for their service.

 

[moonarrow458]

Still happens on a daily basis, with the 0604 to Birmingham, 0609 to Oxford, and 0620 to Gerrards Cross (previously 0605 to Birmingham, 0609 to Oxford, and 0616 to Stratford-upon-Avon) as the stock that forms all three is a single Empty Stock move from Wembley.

The triple stack in the evening peak (1711, 1724 and 1730 departures from Platform 6 if it's the one I'm thinking of) is no more, however.

I think the time it happened to me it may have been something like 1718 Birmingham Snow Hill, 1721 Banbury, and 1724/27 West Ruislip and it was on platform 1/2. Obviously the timetable has changed a fair bit since then but it did seem absolutely ridiculous.

This was the same timetable in which there was a 1615 Kidderminster (Fast) , 1621 Birmingham Snow Hill (Semi-fast) and 1624 Birmingham Moor Street (super slow overtaken twice!) so for passengers to Birmingham it was very easy to mix up which train to take, but at least they departured from different platforms using 68+mk3, 168s, and 165s respectively, but obviously that's a different issue.

I imagine it's less of a problem with your morning example as there's far fewer ppl travelling out of London then and greater spacing between the services. So then it only requires one driver to take the sets from Wembley instead of 3.

 

[Horizon22]

At Euston the conductor simply wouldn't go I would say, except for London Overground obviously but their platform numbers aren't suppressed usually. If it were late in the evening at Marylebone the driver may just assume only a small handful of people have shown up for their service.

Where metro services run from the same station as intercity trains at terminals with different operators (Liverpool Street, Euston come to mind) it seems to be general practice to unsurpress those trains as they very much turn around and are ready to go with cleaners often walking through the train whilst passengers are getting on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Overground platforms are now suppressed, ridiculously, but near enough everyone knows it is almost* never anything other than 9 or 10 and just heads straight there.

* With dual-powered units it could be other platforms but it's so rare for it to be that you might as well go to 9/10 and then go elsewhere if it turns out it's not.

 

[alastair]

There's very little chance it's actually based on some real-world risk factors. For example Southern used to attach and detach 455s at Purley all day for many years. SWR aren't allowed to with passengers onboard. That wasn't based on any actual technical differences with the coupling process, it was just that Southern needed to do it so they did, and SWR don't so they restricted it.

Re. SWR, that is not correct - attach and detach with passengers onboard happens multiple times daily at Salisbury (with a prior warning announcement) and the Basingstokes and Altons often attach/detach at Woking during weekend engineering work. There are probably others on SWR as well.

 

[Western Sunset]

On SWR, some Weymouth trains attach/detach portions (with passengers still aboard) at Southampton and Bournemouth.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

At Paddington when two Class 800s are going to be coupled, the set on the blocks will be locked until the other set comes on and attaches, as you cannot couple these trains with the doors unlocked in either set. I wonder if Chiltern trains have a similar feature, so it’s easier just to leave it locked rather than unlock then lock then unlock again.

It is also an RSSB rule book requirement that trains left unattended should be kept locked shut until crew are there.

 

[Starmill]

Re. SWR, that is not correct - attach and detach with passengers onboard happens multiple times daily at Salisbury (with a prior warning announcement) and the Basingstokes and Altons often attach/detach at Woking during weekend engineering work. There are probably others on SWR as well.

Only for 455s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2023 ==

At Paddington when two Class 800s are going to be coupled, the set on the blocks will be locked until the other set comes on and attaches, as you cannot couple these trains with the doors unlocked in either set. I wonder if Chiltern trains have a similar feature, so it’s easier just to leave it locked rather than unlock then lock then unlock again.

It is also an RSSB rule book requirement that trains left unattended should be kept locked shut until crew are there.

I suspect that it's not permitted to couple with unlocked doors anywhere in the UK? It is however fairly common on the continent for the set which keeps its brakes on to remain unlocked (or indeed both unlocked and just an audible warning not to board or leave).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is also an RSSB rule book requirement that trains left unattended should be kept locked shut until crew are there.

Doesn't happen in a lot of places. Is it genuinely a standard rule or just TOC policy?

 

[Cowley]

This has been a really interesting discussion, I know lots of people are reading (including me) even if they aren’t contributing at the moment.

With in mind could we keep it informative, friendly and less combative from here on please.

Thanks!

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

When I used to commute out of London Waterloo, I would always use Realtime Trains to check the platform and board the train before it was publicly announced to avoid the stampede and get a seat.

Never had any problems doing this, apart from the one time a member of platform staff asked me where I was going and then told me I was on the wrong platform, seconds before the service flashed up on the screen right above his head.

However, I attempted to do this at London Euston rather recently, and was greeted by a wonderfully large metal gate preventing access to the platform, complete with a "holding pen" for cattle passengers. All felt very Blackpool North esque.

 

[nanstallon]

Yes same with Redhill and Eastbourne, I believe also onboard 377s there is a short announcement which explains what the train is doing and to stand away from the doors.

Similar to Plymouth, when a 5 car IET from Penzance joins another 5 car IET to form a London train. Nobody has to get out while the two sets are coupled up.

 

[Krokodil]

At Paddington when two Class 800s are going to be coupled, the set on the blocks will be locked until the other set comes on and attaches, as you cannot couple these trains with the doors unlocked in either set.

You shouldn't couple or uncouple with doors unlocked on any class of train, whether the traction allows it or not (I can't think of anything which would, except slam door stock).

That doesn't necessarily stop the doors from being open while waiting for the inbound unit, so long as someone is there to re-lock them.

Aren't drivers required to visually check their coupling before going on anyway? To make sure that there aren't any dead pheasants wedged in there etc. Either the train's driver or the one waiting on the platform should be checking.

 

[Starmill]

Either the train's driver or the one waiting on the platform should be checking.

I think the relevant licensed shunter or assisting train driver often does that, but yes.

 

[Horizon22]

When I used to commute out of London Waterloo, I would always use Realtime Trains to check the platform and board the train before it was publicly announced to avoid the stampede and get a seat.

Never had any problems doing this, apart from the one time a member of platform staff asked me where I was going and then told me I was on the wrong platform, seconds before the service flashed up on the screen right above his head.

However, I attempted to do this at London Euston rather recently, and was greeted by a wonderfully large metal gate preventing access to the platform, complete with a "holding pen" for cattle passengers. All felt very Blackpool North esque.

Unit swaps are not uncommon at London terminals yet certain apps/systems (looking at you Google Maps) stubbornly show the base data even if it is surpressed or due to be changed. When a platform amendment is made on the CIS, this will filter through to various other industry systems and tools and so will eventually be correct, but some don't feed off this.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I'm curious as to whether GWR have a similar restriction when it comes to attaching and detaching their 165s and 166s with passengers on board. I'm also not entirely sure that the coupling and splitting of EMUs mentioned elsewhere in the thread is comparable, given the different power source.

I haven’t been on a GWR Turbo service that couples/uncouples for years now. But it used to be common for two units to go from Paddington to Oxford, then only one to continue up the Cotswold Line - or conversely, a single unit from the Cotswold Line to gain an extra unit at Oxford. This was, of course, always done with passengers on board.