Alternative Options for Tourists when Travelcards are Withdrawn

[island]

Is it still the case that a week Travelcard gets you a Oyster for free?

No, the £7 fee applies regardless. (In the very early days, a deposit was not taken for an Oyster card issued with a weekly or longer Travelcard.) A Travelcard can however be issued to an ITSO card, which are available at no cost.

 

[redreni]

No, the £7 fee applies regardless. (In the very early days, a deposit was not taken for an Oyster card issued with a weekly or longer Travelcard.) A Travelcard can however be issued to an ITSO card, which are available at no cost.

So I'm trying to think how that would work for a family arriving at Gatwick, say, with their 12 year old children? Let's say they want two adult rate and two child rate weekly travelcards.

Southern's website says order them online and get them in the post. It doesn't offer any other options. Will they send them overseas?

Wikipedia says Southern ticket offices can issue them (and southern's website says it is compulsory to go to the ticket office if you want a child rate smartcard, though it steers you to order it online first, which seems odd).

So I guess this is all fine as long as they only want weekly travelcards not day travelcards and as long as nobody does anything foolish like closing the ticket office at a major international airport.

If, on the other hand, they arrive at one of the two airports that are actually in London and where TfL runs the station (Heathrow or London City) it'll be £28 just for the smartcards, or £14 if they only buy Oyster cards for the children and the adults use contactless. But then they incur a transaction fee for the purchase of the children's oyster cards and travelcards plus one transaction fee per adult per day until they hit the weekly cap, rather than only doing one transaction for the week's travel for all four. They'd better choose their credit or debit card carefully, with international transaction fees and exchange rate weightings firmly in mind!

 

[MrJeeves]

nobody does anything foolish like closing the ticket office at a major international airport

Gatwick's is effectively already closed.

All there are are two tables which staff don't man unless you explicitly ask them to and make sure to tell them your ticket isn't available from the ticket machines.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Gatwick's is effectively already closed.

All there are are two tables which staff don't man unless you explicitly ask them to and make sure to tell them your ticket isn't available from the ticket machines.

Last time I needed to use the ticket office at Gatwick Airport, I had genuinely thought they had closed it because of this!

I wanted an overdistance excess (my ticket was to Three Bridges from the south) and the OBS didn’t have the opportunity to sell me one but allowed me to travel onto Gatwick if I got the excess at my destination.

After getting out of the gateline and looking for the ticket office and only finding the queue for the machines and the two empty stalls you describe, I didn’t click they were “ticket offices” - they weren’t labelled, that’d be too easy!

I ended up getting my overdistance excess from the lovely staff at the Metrobus Gatwick Travel Shop at the time (it’s unfortunately closed down since). They were a bit rusty with excesses, but they tried their best and we worked it out in the end!

 

[Alex C.]

We were in Antwerp and used a contactless bank card to tap in our their underground tram. Seemed to have two different readers though for contactless and their Oyster equivalent.

Brussels also accepts contactless and it works well - although it is a much simpler fare structure of €2.10 per journey, with capping at €7.50 a day. Their oyster equivalent is cheaper though, the card costs €5 and then a 10 trip ticket can be bought for €16.80

 

[island]

So I'm trying to think how that would work for a family arriving at Gatwick, say, with their 12 year old children? Let's say they want two adult rate and two child rate weekly travelcards.

I'm afraid we're hitting "RailForums standard minority" territory here.

 

[nw1]

We should be making is easier for visitors not making it difficult and putting people off visiting London.

We've already lost a significant number to Europe especially the big spenders because we've scrapped tax refunds on product brought by tourists.

And what continent is the UK in if it's not in Europe? North America? South America? Africa? Asia? Oceania? Antarctica?

Saying that "Europe" does not include the UK is like saying "North America" does not include Manhattan.

"Continental Europe", please.

 

[Vespa]

And what continent is the UK in if it's not in Europe? North America? South America? Africa? Asia? Oceania? Antarctica?

Saying that "Europe" does not include the UK is like saying "North America" does not include Manhattan.

"Continental Europe", please.

Pedant alert

I think we all know what we mean when we refer to Europe, Britain is not physically connected to the European mainland as it has a massive moat protecting it ......thankfully

Britain always had a different mind set because of it, we look to the sea and the world, Europe looks to the land and the interior.

 

[James H]

I'm afraid we're hitting "RailForums standard minority" territory here.

Hardly. The fact is that at the moment there is no satisfactory walk-up ticketing solution for passengers arriving in London with children. That is hardly an obscure use case

 

[island]

Hardly. The fact is that at the moment there is no satisfactory walk-up ticketing solution for passengers arriving in London with children. That is hardly an obscure use case

Normal tourists will:

• Take the Gatwick Express to Victoria and sort out onward travel from there, most likely by cab to their hotel
• Take a coach
• Use Über

The ones who have done a bit of research might get Thameslink or Southern branded trains instead. Some will have arranged Oyster cards, which are valid from Gatwick, or will have them from previous trips.

Normal tourists using the Tube will use contactless with daily and weekly capping. Savvy travellers with 11-15 kids might have worked out to get child visitor discount Oyster cards. Really clever ones will have got them Zip cards, which are far cheaper than 7 day child Travelcards.

The number of family groups coming and looking for 7 day Travelcards on arrival at Gatwick is absolutely an obscure use case.

 

[Vespa]

As a tourist in other cities, I want convenience and simplicity, I tend to buy a day, 3 day or 7 day travel pass as it unambiguous all without having to think about individual fares for different trips.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hardly. The fact is that at the moment there is no satisfactory walk-up ticketing solution for passengers arriving in London with children. That is hardly an obscure use case

It is genuinely a bit awkward when it comes to kids. I think TfL just want people to pay adult rate as a tourist tax.

 

[Haywain]

As a tourist in other cities, I want convenience and simplicity, I tend to buy a day, 3 day or 7 day travel pass as it unambiguous all without having to think about individual fares for different trips.

As a tourist in other cities, I do my research before I travel so that I know what it will cost and how to get the best value. If I were travelling with children I would regard that as even more important.

 

[island]

It is genuinely a bit awkward when it comes to kids. I think TfL just want people to pay adult rate as a tourist tax.

TfL would say that kids can get Zip cards and pay £1.70 a day off-peak cap.

 

[Graham H]

As an infrequent visitor to London I liked travelcards from the south coast due to the ease of use. I dont think I have an issue using contactless but have one question. If two or more are travelling does each person have to use a different debit card (even if linked to the same bank account) when passing through the gates or getting on a bus.

 

[nw1]

Pedant alert

I think we all know what we mean when we refer to Europe, Britain is not physically connected to the European mainland as it has a massive moat protecting it ......thankfully

Britain always had a different mind set because of it, we look to the sea and the world, Europe looks to the land and the interior.

Bolded bits in your opinion, of course.

Japan isn't connected to the Asian mainland but I am sure they consider themselves Asians. Same would go, I'm sure, for Sri Lanka, Taiwan and Indonesia. None of these countries are on the Asian mainland, yet no-one, AFAIK, tries to pretend that they are not in Asia.

Closer to home, I'd be surprised if Ireland and Iceland, much further from the European mainland (and nearer to another continent, North America, than we are) try to deny that they are part of the geographical continent of Europe.

Sorry, but I just intensely dislike the geographically-illiterate, politically-motivated, British-exceptionalist claim that the UK is not part of the continent of Europe. Do significant numbers of citizens of any other island nation in the world try to pretend that their country is not part of its continent?

And the rest of Europe does "look to the world". Are you trying to tell me that France and Germany, for instance, do no trade with the rest of the world? Can you not fly to a wide range of global destinations from Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle?

But this is all probably something worth discussing on another thread (mods, feel free to move this post to a new thread....)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2023 ==

Normal tourists will:

• Take the Gatwick Express to Victoria and sort out onward travel from there, most likely by cab to their hotel
• Take a coach
• Use Über

Other taxi firms are available, of course! And other firms are preferred by many.

 

[fandroid]

TfL would say that kids can get Zip cards and pay £1.70 a day off-peak cap.

Zip cards require an online application and a photo card.
There is a Young Visitor discount which can be added to a standard Oyster Card at staffed Underground stations just like Railcard discounts can. I imagine the Oyster still costs £7 though!
A Visitor Oyster Card only costs £5 and can have the Young Visitor discount added. It looks as if credit can only be added to Visitor Oyster Cards in £5 chunks.

 

[jon81uk]

As an infrequent visitor to London I liked travelcards from the south coast due to the ease of use. I dont think I have an issue using contactless but have one question. If two or more are travelling does each person have to use a different debit card (even if linked to the same bank account) when passing through the gates or getting on a bus.

Yes same as Oyster you need one card per person.

 

[Haywain]

I dont think I have an issue using contactless but have one question. If two or more are travelling does each person have to use a different debit card (even if linked to the same bank account) when passing through the gates or getting on a bus.

Yes, one card per passenger.

 

[island]

If two or more are travelling does each person have to use a different debit card (even if linked to the same bank account) when passing through the gates or getting on a bus.

Yes – although if one has linked a card to a smartphone or watch or hairpin or whatever else you can use this week each device is deemed to be a separate card from each other and the physical card.

 

[Vespa]

Bolded bits in your opinion, of course.

Japan isn't connected to the Asian mainland but I am sure they consider themselves Asians. Same would go, I'm sure, for Sri Lanka, Taiwan and Indonesia. None of these countries are on the Asian mainland, yet no-one, AFAIK, tries to pretend that they are not in Asia.

Closer to home, I'd be surprised if Ireland and Iceland, much further from the European mainland (and nearer to another continent, North America, than we are) try to deny that they are part of the geographical continent of Europe.

Sorry, but I just intensely dislike the geographically-illiterate, politically-motivated, British-exceptionalist claim that the UK is not part of the continent of Europe. Do significant numbers of citizens of any other island nation in the world try to pretend that their country is not part of its continent?

And the rest of Europe does "look to the world". Are you trying to tell me that France and Germany, for instance, do no trade with the rest of the world? Can you not fly to a wide range of global destinations from Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle?

But this is all probably something worth discussing on another thread (mods, feel free to move this post to a new thread....)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2023 ==

The great beauty of this country is we're entitled to our opinion without censure, the Brexit argument is done, retreading it serves no purpose.

I will say one thing there is a lot to learn from how Europe runs their public transport system and London has to teach the world.

People are like water they will take the path of least resistance, a simple one day or 7 day travel card within a zonal system is much easier especially as a tourist you can easily get on the wrong train or tram route, you can still backtrack without buying a new ticket or risking a fine, it's less stressful and gives you options to explore more by hopping off and on where you want.

Simplicity is King !

 

[nw1]

The great beauty of this country is we're entitled to our opinion without censure, the Brexit argument is done, retreading it serves no purpose.

And other democratic countries, too of course.

 

[fandroid]

People are like water they will take the path of least resistance, a simple one day or 7 day travel card within a zonal system is much easier especially as a tourist you can easily get on the wrong train or tram route, you can still backtrack without buying a new ticket or risking a fine, it's less stressful and gives you options to explore more by hopping off and on where you want.

Simplicity is King !

Oyster is simplicity too, once you've bought one! For visitors it has the advantage of only charging for journeys made, so days of minimal travel cost less. It's also just one ticket, that can be used for the whole duration of a multi-day visit.

 

[181]

Oyster is simplicity too, once you've bought one!

Not in the same way as an unlimited-travel card, though. For example:

• What happens if you enter a station and then change your mind or find there are no trains running? I think, from what I read a while ago, that you either have to leave again within 2 minutes, or make sure that you don't leave until after 2 minutes, depending on whether you plan to use a train from an alternative station or not (but I can't remember which way round it is).
• I understand that there are circumstances when it's advantageous to touch in on a bus which you have no intention of using.
• Travelcards don't have maximum journey times (even if these don't affect many journeys, it's one more thing to worry about, especially for confused tourists getting on the wrong train).
• If you get something wrong, the only way to avoid being overcharged is to spend time phoning up a call centre to try and get it sorted out.
• There's a large unofficial website (https://oysterfares.com/) devoted to explaining the system, including a whole page just about how to change at Wimbledon.

Maybe it's all obvious if you're used to it, but not everyone is (especially visitors).

 

[Western Sunset]

Yes, one card per passenger.

Being totally dumb as to all things oyster and contactless, how are young children accommodated travelling by contactless as they won't have their own bank accounts and thus no card?

 

[urbophile]

• There's a large unofficial website (https://oysterfares.com/) devoted to explaining the system, including a whole page just about how to change at Wimbledon.

Maybe it's all obvious if you're used to it, but not everyone is (especially visitors).

Written by Franz Kafka no doubt. Well, to be fair to the authors of the helpful website, I don't mean the explanation, but the 'system' itself.

 

[James H]

Being totally dumb as to all things oyster and contactless, how are young children accommodated travelling by contactless as they won't have their own bank accounts?

They're not accommodated by contactless, which only deals with undiscounted adult fares, which is one of the issues this thread is concerned with.

Some adults with multiple bank cards and for whom simplicity is more important than saving money may choose to simply give their offspring a card to get them through the gate, and to hell with the cost.

There are a range of concessions for children on public transport in London (including no-questions-asked free travel on buses for under-11s) which mitigates some of the issues, but the situation with journeys involving rail is much more complex. Take a look at this map for instance: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/free-travel-areas-without-oyster-adult-accompanying-map.pdf - simple it is not!

There are Zip cards (essentially Oyster for older kids) but you need to apply in advance for dispatch by post, and there is a fee. So no good if you arrive at an airport wanting to travel immediately.

 

[MikeWh]

Written by Franz Kafka no doubt. Well, to be fair to the authors of the helpful website, I don't mean the explanation, but the 'system' itself.

I'm glad you added the second sentence.

 

[Western Sunset]

There are a range of concessions for children on public transport in London (including no-questions-asked free travel on buses for under-11s) which mitigates some of the issues, but the situation with journeys involving rail is much more complex. Take a look at this map for instance: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/free-travel-areas-without-oyster-adult-accompanying-map.pdf - simple it is not!

I had to re-read the key to the map before (I think) I understood it. Must be an old base map though as, for example, Coulsdon Town is still shown as Smitham. And are there any National Rail trains running between Padd and West Drayton nowadays?

 

[MikeWh]

And are there any National Rail trains running between Padd and West Drayton nowadays?

Yes. Despite their best efforts to hide the fact, Elizabeth Line and London Overground are both National Rail services.