HS2 to the Elizabeth Line

[tigerroar]

With all of the talk that HS2 might never reach Euston, is there any reason why it can't feed into the Elizabeth Line and serve central London that way?

 

[Wolfie]

With all of the talk that HS2 might never reach Euston, is there any reason why it can't feed into the Elizabeth Line and serve central London that way?

Apart from the fact that the Elizabeth line was built for completely different purposes, using a shedload of taxes raised locally in London, and does those very well you mean?

 

[tigerroar]

That last bit isn't making sense to me, but if you're going to suggest taxes then was Crossrail paid for solely by Londoners?

 

[JonathanH]

With all of the talk that HS2 might never reach Euston, is there any reason why it can't feed into the Elizabeth Line and serve central London that way?

That is what it is doing. Old Oak Common will be an interchange between HS2 and the Elizabeth Line, with Paddington terminators extended to terminate at Old Oak Common.

[Clearly there is no possible rolling stock that could work on both HS2 and the Elizabeth Line even if they could physically be linked up.]

 

[Whistler40145]

Presumably, both lines will have different signalling systems too

 

[Wolfie]

That last bit isn't making sense to me, but if you're going to suggest taxes then was Crossrail paid for solely by Londoners?

A significant part certainly was. The Elizabeth line was built for a reason. That shouldn't be sacrificed to bail out the current shower of so-called leaders.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2023 ==

That is what it is doing. Old Oak Common will be an interchange between HS2 and the Elizabeth Line, with Paddington terminators extended to terminate at Old Oak Common.

[Clearly there is no possible rolling stock that could work on both HS2 and the Elizabeth Line even if they could physically be linked up.]

True enough.

 

[tigerroar]

That is what it is doing. Old Oak Common will be an interchange between HS2 and the Elizabeth Line, with Paddington terminators extended to terminate at Old Oak Common.

[Clearly there is no possible rolling stock that could work on both HS2 and the Elizabeth Line even if they could physically be linked up.]

Have they built the rolling stock already?

 

[JonathanH]

Have they built the rolling stock already?

345s, yes. HS2 stock, no.

Only 345s can work the Elizabeth Line, due to signalling, passenger loads, configuration of the doors, and lots of other reasons.

 

[matt_world2004]

With all of the talk that HS2 might never reach Euston, is there any reason why it can't feed into the Elizabeth Line and serve central London that way?

24tph on the Elizabeth line and 24tph (proposed for hs2)means this wouldn't go well,, plus the hs2 trains are underground at Old Oak Common and the Elizabeth lines aren't.

Also HS2 trains will he longer than the Elizabeth line platforms.

 

[Krokodil]

Surely the whole point of the OOC interchange is to provide a convenient connection for central London. Small comfort to those of us for whom Euston would be more convenient, never mind the ultimate convenience of direct service onto HS1, but I suppose that we should just count ourselves lucky to be getting any link at all.

 

[HST43257]

Pigs will fly before I see an HS2 service from Crewe to Custom House

 

[swt_passenger]

With all of the talk that HS2 might never reach Euston, is there any reason why it can't feed into the Elizabeth Line and serve central London that way?

There’s one big reason why not, and you’re not the first to miss it. The HS2 tracks will be at the bottom of a huge box, with the Elizabeth Line passing over them at the eastern end. It’s just not physically possible to have a track connection there.

But suggestions of either running into Paddington or onto Crossrail have been made already, in the thread here:

What happens if HS2 Euston proves to be unbuildable?

The reality is the concept for Euston is simply undeliverable on the space available - and tearing down even more of Camden to make room is also unworkable for political reasons. EDIT: And that old plan to hack Euston suburbans onto Crossrail to make room at the station is unworkable now with...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

24tph (proposed for hs2)

18 paths each hour is the maximum capacity of HS2. In practice, there were only ever 17 trains actually proposed, and it won't be that many without the eastern leg, or Euston.

 

[tigerroar]

345s, yes. HS2 stock, no.

Only 345s can work the Elizabeth Line, due to signalling, passenger loads, configuration of the doors, and lots of other reasons.

So they build the HS2 rolling stock to be compatible with these features.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2023 ==

There’s one big reason why not, and you’re not the first to miss it. The HS2 tracks will be at the bottom of a huge box, with the Elizabeth Line passing over them at the eastern end. It’s just not physically possible to have a track connection there.

But suggestions of either running into Paddington or onto Crossrail have been made already, in the thread here:

What happens if HS2 Euston proves to be unbuildable?

The reality is the concept for Euston is simply undeliverable on the space available - and tearing down even more of Camden to make room is also unworkable for political reasons. EDIT: And that old plan to hack Euston suburbans onto Crossrail to make room at the station is unworkable now with...

www.railforums.co.uk

But the whole thing isn't finished yet. They've barely started. It's a huge hole in the ground right now isn't it? If they can change plans to omit Euston they can change the plans to alter OOC.

 

[Trainbike46]

So they build the HS2 rolling stock to be compatible with these features.

The requirements for Crossrail and for HS2 are inherently incompatible though; you can't design a train that is both suitable for long-distance journeys like London-Glasgow and for tube-style journeys like on the Elizabeth line.

You're also ignoring the point that it is physically impossible to build such a connection at OOC, at least without knocking down most railways in the area, so that the rolling stock point is moot anyway

 

[tigerroar]

24tph on the Elizabeth line and 24tph (proposed for hs2)means this wouldn't go well,, plus the hs2 trains are underground at Old Oak Common and the Elizabeth lines aren't.

Also HS2 trains will he longer than the Elizabeth line platforms.

Well as the trains aren't yet built, build them to fit the EL platforms.

And unless those 24tph are all rammed to capacity, simple, make them both 12tph and share the load.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2023 ==

The requirements for Crossrail and for HS2 are inherently incompatible though; you can't design a train that is both suitable for long-distance journeys like London-Glasgow and for tube-style journeys like on the Elizabeth line.

You're also ignoring the point that it is physically impossible to build such a connection at OOC, at least without knocking down most railways in the area, so that the rolling stock point is moot anyway

why is it physically impossible? If it's because it's underground then have them keep tunnelling to link up with the EL tunnel at Paddington.

And the train doesn't have to be compatible. As long as it has certain doors lining up with the platform doors what else would it need?

 

[JonathanH]

And the train doesn't have to be compatible. As long as it has certain doors lining up with the platform doors what else would it need?

A pointy nose for a start unless you want HS2 trains to only go 90mph.

While you could have a train that aligns with only some of the platform access doors, the Elizabeth Line needs trains that can carry a large number of passengers standing, and fast access. If some of the doors can't be used, the dwell times will be longer and your idea of 12 trains from Shenfield to Birmingham and 12 trains from Heathrow to Abbey Wood will fail.

Therefore, the trains on the Elizabeth Libe have to have the configuration of a 345. I guess you could build a special 345 with a pointy nose but the seating arrangement isn't suitable for a high speed route.

They've barely started. It's a huge hole in the ground right now isn't it? If they can change plans to omit Euston they can change the plans to alter OOC.

That doesn't matter. The construction in that hole in the ground is all planned out. It takes many years to make those plans and the outline can't just be changed without causing a huge delay and costing a few extra billion.

They also haven't given up on going to Euston either. Indeed, the machinery to build the tunnels from Old Oak Commin to Euston is going to have to be installed very soon even if actual construction work isn't starting for some time.

 

[stuu]

Well as the trains aren't yet built, build them to fit the EL platforms.

Hs2 trains are going to be 400m long. EL trains are ~200m long. Losing half the capacity of HS2 is not a good idea

And unless those 24tph are all rammed to capacity, simple, make them both 12tph and share the load.

They are

why is it physically impossible? If it's because it's underground then have them keep tunnelling to link up with the EL tunnel at Paddington.

That would cost billions, delay everything by a decade, as no planning permission or design is in place, and close the EL for a considerable time

And the train doesn't have to be compatible. As long as it has certain doors lining up with the platform doors what else would it need?

Its just a bad idea all round. Running a metro train to Birmingham on a brand new high speed line is not a good idea

 

[350401]

I've been to the OOC site for a tour, and I can tell you it is physically impossible to join the two lines given the depth of the HS2 station box, and where the Elizabeth line. You'd be looking at a DLR style ski-ramp to get from the box up to street level. If you didn't have the box, and built at ground level, it could be do-able but you'd have to level a lot more of Acton - certainly the houses between the Victoria crossover box and the station box.

 

[SynthD]

This would be far more of a sabotage to either services than the issue that caused the suggestion.

 

[tigerroar]

I've been to the OOC site for a tour, and I can tell you it is physically impossible to join the two lines given the depth of the HS2 station box, and where the Elizabeth line. You'd be looking at a DLR style ski-ramp to get from the box up to street level. If you didn't have the box, and built at ground level, it could be do-able but you'd have to level a lot more of Acton - certainly the houses between the Victoria crossover box and the station box.

tunnel through to Paddington then!

and it wouldn't be a metro train to Birmingham, they'd be EL length trains built to HS2 standards. Passengers would only be allowed to join the train at EL stations en route to Brum.

And are all northbound inter City services going to go via HS2 instead of Euston, thus 24tph?

 

[JonathanH]

and it wouldn't be a metro train to Birmingham, they'd be EL length trains built to HS2 standards. Passengers would only be allowed to join the train at EL stations en route to Brum.

How is that going to be managed? Your suggestion reduces the capacity of the Elizabeth Line to do what it is intended to do. Would the HS2 trains extend to Abbey Wood or Shenfield?

tunnel through to Paddington then!

I don't see how that reduces costs. As someone pointed out above, building the junction would require the Elizabeth Line to be shut for some time.

And are all northbound inter City services going to go via HS2 instead of Euston, thus 24tph?

HS2 will not have 24 trains an hour. 18 is the limit, and needed 11 platforms at Euston plus the eastern leg to provide the appropriate number of destinations.

 

[Energy]

tunnel through to Paddington then!

How would it connect at Paddington, you already have the EL portal? Where would these services terminate, you'd need at least 7 platforms to turn around the HS2 services.

And you'd need to fit these services in with existing Elizabeth line services, which wouldn't be possible.

they'd be EL length trains built to HS2 standards.

And HS2 is planned to send 400m trains to the big cities...

And are all northbound inter City services going to go via HS2 instead of Euston, thus 24tph?