Avanti platform staff bawling at passengers

[12LDA28C]

Question for staff involved in dispatch - is the policy to use the line or is it a separate distance (e.g. everyone must be x metres from the train) to the yellow line turbulence distance(s)?

If someone is standing between the yellow line and the train, the chances are the train won't be dispatched until they have moved. The PTI must be clear before doors are closed and the train moves. Several well-publicised incidents have brought about this approach.

 

[Krokodil]

I thought yellow lines were for passing trains and air turbulence which does make some sense.

Originally, yes. Since then though we've moved into the situation where if staff don't ensure that the dispatch corridor is absolutely clear, they risk the CPS taking them to court on a charge of manslaughter if something goes wrong. The days of the public being responsible for their own actions are a thing of the past.

 

[12LDA28C]

Originally, yes. Since then though we've moved into the situation where if staff don't ensure that the dispatch corridor is absolutely clear, they risk the CPS taking them to court on a charge of manslaughter if something goes wrong. The days of the public being responsible for their own actions are a thing of the past.

Indeed, see the Georgia Varley incident at Liverpool James Street station.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yeah, 13/14 is a pretty unpleasant place to be for a variety of reasons not least of which is the yelling. However they could gate it and keep everyone upstairs, open the gate when the train arrives (and, indeed, pax are alighted) .

That works on the Underground because all trains go to the same places. But at 13/14 Piccadilly trains go to many different places, some of them only once an hour, so kettling people away from the platforms really won't work unless you have space for separate queues for each service.

 

[Llandudno]

Have some of the station staff been moved from Blackpool North to Manchester Piccadilly?

Had occasion to travel from Blackpool last Thursday evening, used ticket barriers to enter the station and then walked straight to the platform for my Manchester train without any bother, Totally opposite experience at Piccadilly on the outward journey at platforms 13/14 in the morning though.

Repeated yelling and bawling at CUSTOMERS and non stop automated announcements!

 

[bramling]

If someone is standing between the yellow line and the train, the chances are the train won't be dispatched until they have moved. The PTI must be clear before doors are closed and the train moves. Several well-publicised incidents have brought about this approach.

The dispatch corridor doesn’t need to be clear by a depth of approaching a metre though, which is where the yellow line is at my local station.

As has has been suggested a few times here, there has clearly been an element of mission creep. There is certainly no requirement for a metre or so clear space, as LU’s yellow lines are nowhere near that far back.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Have some of the station staff been moved from Blackpool North to Manchester Piccadilly?

Had occasion to travel from Blackpool last Thursday evening, used ticket barriers to enter the station and then walked straight to the platform for my Manchester train without any bother, Totally opposite experience at Piccadilly on the outward journey at platforms 13/14 in the morning though.

Repeated yelling and bawling at CUSTOMERS and non stop automated announcements!

The train dispatch challenges at Blackpool North and Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 are completely different, although neither are always easy.

 

[12LDA28C]

The dispatch corridor doesn’t need to be clear by a depth of approaching a metre though, which is where the yellow line is at my local station.

As has has been suggested a few times here, there has clearly been an element of mission creep. There is certainly no requirement for a metre or so clear space, as LU’s yellow lines are nowhere near that far back.

How much 'clear space' should there be then? 50cm? 75cm? If the yellow line is an easy measurement to use and clearly visible say to a driver of a long train using DOO equipment then it makes sense to use the line in this manner. I'm guessing you're not a driver, guard or dispatcher yourself, yet appear to believe you know better than people in those positions?

 

[Howardh]

That works on the Underground because all trains go to the same places. But at 13/14 Piccadilly trains go to many different places, some of them only once an hour, so kettling people away from the platforms really won't work unless you have space for separate queues for each service.

Think they do try to do that but not like the tube. They have screens upstairs telling you to "wait", "get ready" and "go" (or terms to that effect) and I note that it does work to a degree. Unfortunately the upstairs area is little better that the platfors, uncomfortable seats, little room when busy, inadequate toilets and expensive cafe - could be so much better with some though. On the other hand I LOVE the old maps, can while away many a cancellation just looking at them.

 

[bramling]

How much 'clear space' should there be then? 50cm? 75cm? If the yellow line is an easy measurement to use and clearly visible say to a driver of a long train using DOO equipment then it makes sense to use the line in this manner.

Let’s start with LU as a yardstick. Their yellow lines are pretty close to the platform edge (I can’t recall off hand the exact distance but I’m sure someone will be able to oblige). There’s some pretty busy LU platforms, with their trains having up to 30 doorways for the driver to monitor, which is rather more than even something like a 700/1. Certainly a lot more of a handful to dispatch than a guard dispatching an average 2-car Sprinter.

To be fair, it may well be the case that some of the mainline’s yellow lines are too far away, but this takes us back to the mission creep. They were installed for one purpose, but are now being used for another, seemingly with little thought given to some of the side-effects of this.

I'm guessing you're not a driver, guard or dispatcher yourself, yet appear to believe you know better than people in those positions?

With respect, that’s for me to know.

 

[jon0844]

There’s some pretty busy LU platforms, with their trains having up to 30 doorways for the driver to monitor, which is rather more than even something like a 700/1.

One difference is that LU drivers can still see the monitors as the train leaves. A mainline driver has the monitors go blank once moving, meaning there's no real opportunity to stop the train quickly enough. Drivers MUST stop immediately if the PASCOM is activated when leaving a station (no second guessing) but that relies on someone inside the train acting quickly enough.

 

[bramling]

One difference is that LU drivers can still see the monitors as the train leaves.

This may have crept in over time, but it’s only in the last few years that it’s become widespread. The Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines still don’t have this feature, and on all lines drivers can self-dispatch through an open cab door (at selected platforms) if the monitors are defective. When departing a platform LU drivers aren’t trained to continuously observe the monitors, especially on the non-ATC lines.

Interestingly, and as an aside, LU’s process doesn’t emphasise the “train safety check” in the same way as NR does. I would wager a fiver that at some point this will be a factor in an incident and will be changed.

I don’t think LU’s yellow lines were intended to be used as a yardstick for dispatch, and indeed offhand I don’t think they’re part of the current dispatch process, nor barely mentioned in their rule book. Although they are used as a yardstick by some, especially platform staff, again this would appear to be another case of mission creep.

A mainline driver has the monitors go blank once moving, meaning there's no real opportunity to stop the train quickly enough.

All of this highlights the rather rocky transition from the days of guards hanging out of the side of a departing train, as was the case on both LU and NR. It probably suited all that this transition tended to occur in the 80s when passenger numbers were at a low point. It seems we haven’t quite managed to find a seamless way of replicating the benefits this method brought - albeit with its own risks not least to the guard.

 

[BluePenguin]

When I used to work for First, I'd get the reduced-price day rovers that all staff were entitled to.

Euston is the only station where the staff would sarcastically ask for my work ID (which was already in my hand) as if I'd somehow illicitly obtained the ticket before begrudgingly letting me through. It's not like we all worked for First...

More recently, I witnessed a man make it to the barrier seemingly just after the T-2 minutes where they like to block access to the platform. He wasn't pleased, as the train was still there with doors open, but thankfully the very friendly staff member decided to remedy the situation by shouting at him some more.

The man push through and make it onto the train?

 

[12LDA28C]

Let’s start with LU as a yardstick. Their yellow lines are pretty close to the platform edge (I can’t recall off hand the exact distance but I’m sure someone will be able to oblige). There’s some pretty busy LU platforms, with their trains having up to 30 doorways for the driver to monitor, which is rather more than even something like a 700/1. Certainly a lot more of a handful to dispatch than a guard dispatching an average 2-car Sprinter.

To be fair, it may well be the case that some of the mainline’s yellow lines are too far away, but this takes us back to the mission creep. They were installed for one purpose, but are now being used for another, seemingly with little thought given to some of the side-effects of this.

Let's talk about main line railways. If a TOC has a policy of requiring the dispatch corridor to be clear to allow a train to depart, is it easier to brief traincrew and dispatchers to a) make sure nobody is within 75cm of the platform edge before completing station duties and departing or b) make sure nobody is between the yellow line and the train before completing station duties and departing...?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2023 ==

With respect, that’s for me to know.

Your comments here suggest you haven't got a lot of personal experience of dispatching trains so with respect, I'll draw my own conclusions.

 

[bramling]

Let's talk about main line railways.

A train is a train and a platform is a platform. The significance of LU as a comparison is that they are a very busy network so what they do in respect of dispatch is both of interest and relevance.

If a TOC has a policy of requiring the dispatch corridor to be clear to allow a train to depart, is it easier to brief traincrew and dispatchers to a) make sure nobody is within 75cm of the platform edge before completing station duties and departing or b) make sure nobody is between the yellow line and the train before completing station duties and departing...?

If this is going to happen then some thought needs to be put into where yellow lines are placed, how their purpose is communicated to passengers, and how passengers might react in the real world. LU seem to have, more or less, done this, whereas it seems NR haven’t. Hence why we apparently have mainline staff barking their heads off up and down the west coast, yet this seems to be the exception on LU.

 

[jon0844]

The new position of the yellow line seems to be in line with new guidelines on tactile surfacing, for accessibility reasons.

However, the line is still going to be the only thing people can be asked to stand behind. At some narrower platforms it would appear to be a little too far back - but someone created the rules and over time, I expect more platforms will see the line moved to the station side of the tactile surface, not the lineside.

The downside of this is that it now creates a wide area, along the edge, that people can (and do) walk down to pass people waiting behind the line.

 

[Krokodil]

The downside of this is that it now creates a wide area, along the edge, that people can (and do) walk down to pass people waiting behind the line.

Which is why LU have a different approach. Not because it's any safer to have a crowd close to the edge on their system - though the gap is generally much smaller.

 

[jon0844]

Which is why LU have a different approach. Not because it's any safer to have a crowd close to the edge on their system - though the gap is generally much smaller.

I am sure we've all seen people still walk along the edge, even with the TINY gap in comparison to a mainline railway platform.

 

[12LDA28C]

If this is going to happen then some thought needs to be put into where yellow lines are placed, how their purpose is communicated to passengers, and how passengers might react in the real world. LU seem to have, more or less, done this, whereas it seems NR haven’t. Hence why we apparently have mainline staff barking their heads off up and down the west coast, yet this seems to be the exception on LU.

The yellow lines already exist. Why is it such a problem to use them as a definition of the dispatch corridor as well as their original intended purpose regarding air turbulence from passing trains? Are you suggesting having two yellow lines with different meanings? Or lines of various colours again meaning different things? That sounds rather ridiculous to me, and irrelevant to this thread which is about the attitude of station staff at various locations.

It's pretty simple - keep back from the platform edge and stay behind the yellow line unless boarding/alighting a train. That's the simple, clear message that needs to be communicated to passengers and as far as I know it already is.

 

[railfan99]

Given that much safety critical work essentially involves staff protecting people (sometimes uncooperative, unaware or intoxicated) from their own stupidity,

Do other drugs (apart from alcohol) play a part? Methamphetamines ("ice") is a problem in my neck o' the woods, not that I am skilled enough to recognise.

 

[uglymonkey]

They would have the screaming ad daps at Baldock, it doesn't have any yellow lines at all! Trains frequently run through non stop at 70mph +
Hitchin does have yellow lines, and Exmouth too I think even though it's a terminus. So seems a bit it and miss

 

[modernrail]

When I used to work for First, I'd get the reduced-price day rovers that all staff were entitled to.

Euston is the only station where the staff would sarcastically ask for my work ID (which was already in my hand) as if I'd somehow illicitly obtained the ticket before begrudgingly letting me through. It's not like we all worked for First...

More recently, I witnessed a man make it to the barrier seemingly just after the T-2 minutes where they like to block access to the platform. He wasn't pleased, as the train was still there with doors open, but thankfully the very friendly staff member decided to remedy the situation by shouting at him some more.

Yeah this one is getting ridiculous at a few stations now. At least Euston and St P EMT platforms. First it was train doors closing 30 seconds before departure. Now we are up to the whole gateline closing 2 minutes before departure and staff feeling like they can be incredibly rude about enforcing that. I was at St P on Thursday and we had a whistles going from 2 minutes from a highly over-excited platform staff for god knows what purpose. Totally over the top.

If they really feel it necessary to close the platform early then it should be after the back door of the train, so that passengers can enter the back door up to 30 seconds before the departure minute.

What the platform hooligans and their bosses should try and remember is that half the time the reason you are running late is because some other element of the transport system has not performed, and that next time it could well be their bit that doesn’t perform.

I for one am done with it. If any member of railway staff is rude to me without cause (and as I am not rude to them it is without cause) then they get an earful. No shouting, no swearing but a very clear reminder that they need to grow some manners and behave like a paid professional, not like a shouty sulky child. I would advise anybody else on the receiving end of this sort of rudeness to do the same - you are perfectly entitled to.

 

[AlterEgo]

How much 'clear space' should there be then? 50cm? 75cm? If the yellow line is an easy measurement to use and clearly visible say to a driver of a long train using DOO equipment then it makes sense to use the line in this manner. I'm guessing you're not a driver, guard or dispatcher yourself, yet appear to believe you know better than people in those positions?

In the case of the Varley incident, “not leaning on the train” and “not committing manslaughter” is the starting point. Don’t really see why it should be a whole metre.

 

[12LDA28C]

In the case of the Varley incident, “not leaning on the train” and “not committing manslaughter” is the starting point. Don’t really see why it should be a whole metre.

I never said it should be a whole metre. The point is that the yellow line, where provided, is an easy way to define the dispatch corridor instead of giving some arbitrary measurement from the platform edge.

 

[Segedunum]

The man push through and make it onto the train?

No, by the time I was up the ramp the dispatch process had started with whistles et al and the staff member and passenger were still screaming at each other.

 

[Krokodil]

What the platform hooligans and their bosses should try and remember is that half the time the reason you are running late is because some other element of the transport system has not performed,

At Euston the more likely reason that you are running late is that they've only just called the platform.

In the case of the Varley incident, “not leaning on the train” and “not committing manslaughter” is the starting point. Don’t really see why it should be a whole metre.

In addition to the reason listed by a PP, with an intoxicated passenger the difference between "two feet from a train" and "leaning on a train" is just a quick stumble. Hence getting people to stand, a decent distance back to avoid anyone moving into a dangerous position between when they checked and when the train pulls out. I understand that LNW now instructs its guards to keep watching out of an open droplight until the train is clear of the platform - like the old days - after an incident happened.

 

[Western Sunset]

I've noticed at KX that dispatchers stand watching until the whole train is clear of the platform end.

 

[12LDA28C]

I've noticed at KX that dispatchers stand watching until the whole train is clear of the platform end.

That is common practice all over the network I believe.

 

[Wychwood93]

That is common practice all over the network I believe.

That covers the minority of mainline stations where there are actually 'dispatchers'.

 

[Stocked]

Preston is bad for this as well. It's truly shocking how rude the staff can be. Yelling at the top of their voices down the platform at people when they set so much as a single toe over the line. I've even seen them do it to elderly people using walking aids. No respect whatsoever.

I’m surprised more people haven’t mentioned Preston. I think I may make my own thread about it, I could give a number of instances whereby Avanti staff have been diabolical, whether it be shouting, general rudeness and lack of understanding or simply the wrong information which caused me to literally hitchhike my way to Scotland….

This is a different kettle of fish, and you could say maybe this wasn’t their fault, but there was an notable incident a year or so ago at Oxenholme whereby Avanti staff locked passengers in the station. How Avanti still managed to keep its license and Transpennine didnt is beyond me.