Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[507020]

Since I've got a spare half an hour for once, I'll attempt to update this…

Well it’s been a while since we last saw this. You’ve done a good job updating the 156s that have joined from EMR, but of course 150137, 150139 and 150141 have left the fleet for the Marston Vale and 150269 and 150270 are at TfW. No idea on the non-Sprinter digital mods unfortunately.

 

[Neptune]

The 333’s have all had the digital mods but await the fitting of TrainFX.

 

[jonesy3001]

Thought the northern 323s had also had mods.
The WMT 323s that are joining are having them done also.
202,203,205,207,208,210,212 and 218 have been done.

 

[Harvey B]

Do you have the link for the youtube video please?
All of the fleet apart from the CAF units are to be replaced, probably starting with the 150s first.

does that include the 333's and 170s too? Would be a total shame to them go?

 

[jonesy3001]

does that include the 333's and 170s too? Would be a total shame to them go?

Here's the thread to discuss this.

Northern Tender for up to 450 units

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #83 originally in this thread This was published on Friday afternoon for a new tender for 450 units for northern. https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/022810-2023 The objective of this procurement is to enter into a framework agreement with a single supplier for...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Harvey B]

The 333’s have all had the digital mods but await the fitting of TrainFX.

Good god no. Will this mean distorted announcements like the 170's?

 

[py_megapixel]

Good god no. Will this mean distorted announcements like the 170's?

I vaguely remember someone on this thread (can't remember who, sorry) saying the distortion on the 170s wasn't the permanent state of affairs but a fault that was being resolved.

This is different to the Sprinters and 323s, where even before TrainFX was fitted, announcements by the guard sounded muffled. TrainFX just plays its announcements through whatever PA equipment is already fitted to the train*, so of course the auto announcements also sound muffled and presumably will do forever unless the PA system is completely replaced with a modern one.

* This had the slightly strange consequence of the auto announcements occasionally being heard in Pacers - which, apart from the one-off Porterbrook "144e" one, were never fitted with TrainFX - when they were coupled to Sprinters that were fitted. If I recall correctly, this lead to a policy that the auto announcements should only be switched on if all units in the train were fitted - I think it had something to do with the announcements in non-fitted units being deafeningly loud because TrainFX couldn't control the volume in them.

Sorry if any of this is incorrect or I've misunderstood.

 

[reecestrains]

They haven't fitted TrainFX on any of the 333's at the moment. I actually prefer the green destination screens and the voice on them right now.

That's just my opinion on this though.

 

[Chiltern006]

i must admit, TrainFX on a 170 is quite odd

 

[Mamorin]

Anyone have any idea what the plan is for the other electric stoppers from Piccadilly? Currently the Hadfields are all 323s, the Alderey Edge terminators are all 331s, and the Crewes and Stokes mostly 323s with the occasional 331.

Hadfields do get 331s but I think its only to check on the OHLE, as for Stokes its currently 2 323 diagrams 1 331 diagram.

Plan is now for the 12 4 car 331s to go west and replace the 319s, and for 12 3 car 331s to go east.

Odds are 323 routes will remain as they are now, with some 6 car running where needed.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Hadfields do get 331s but I think its only to check on the OHLE, as for Stokes its currently 2 323 diagrams 1 331 diagram.

Plan is now for the 12 4 car 331s to go west and replace the 319s, and for 12 3 car 331s to go east.

Odds are 323 routes will remain as they are now, with some 6 car running where needed.

Only 10 3 car 331s are heading east.

 

[Mamorin]

Huh thats interesting as I'd heard it was like for like. So my information must be outdated.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A loss of 18 vehicles then... Good thing the Bradford legs of the triangle aren't getting their half-hourly services back!

 

[Mamorin]

Given the LNWR 319s are being withdrawn due to needing expensive C6 overhauls the Northern 319s must be close to needing the same work.

So to Northern the 331 swap is worth it given the cost saving, even if it means Yorkshire losing carriages.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Given the LNWR 319s are being withdrawn due to needing expensive C6 overhauls the Northern 319s must be close to needing the same work.

So to Northern the 331 swap is worth it given the cost saving, even if it means Yorkshire losing carriages.

Even if it was 12 units for 12 units, there would still be a cut in carriages for Yorkshire. Given that the 3-car units will at least allow some 6-car workings, the reduction in the total number of carriages isn't a problem.

However, with the cuts to Bradford services to Ilkley and Skipton, one of the few services in West Yorkshire that actually contribute to decarbonisation is being decimated. Whilst Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham (for all his faults) has been a voice campaigning for improvements to transport in his jurisdiction, his West Yorkshire counterpart Tracey Brabin has been silent on this. Aside from the fares cap on buses (something that was later adopted nationwide) she's been rather quiet on transport matters.

 

[Neptune]

Even if it was 12 units for 12 units, there would still be a cut in carriages for Yorkshire. Given that the 3-car units will at least allow some 6-car workings, the reduction in the total number of carriages isn't a problem.

6 car workings won’t be seen until the Dec ‘24 timetable change once the platform extensions are complete. At that point the full triangle service will be reinstated and more 3 car 331’s will then come east and 333’s will go onto Doncaster services. No point having the full quota of units until then. The plan is that by Dec ‘24 these units coming east and the 319’s will be backfilled by the WMR 323’s.

However, with the cuts to Bradford services to Ilkley and Skipton, one of the few services in West Yorkshire that actually contribute to decarbonisation is being decimated. Whilst Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham (for all his faults) has been a voice campaigning for improvements to transport in his jurisdiction, his West Yorkshire counterpart Tracey Brabin has been silent on this. Aside from the fares cap on buses (something that was later adopted nationwide) she's been rather quiet on transport matters.

Brabin is only interested in the big stuff or stuff that directly affects her. For instance she was very vocal about TPE and it was noted that her local station is Slaithwaite. Her best mate appears to be Susan Hinchcliffe, leader of the inept Bradford council hence the loony tunes schemes for Bradford being suggested such as Bradford Gateway station. She also wants a big bang light rail network for the county but how does she intend to fund this? The 3 line Leeds supertram was canned when the going was good so how the hell does she expect a network planned to be bigger than Manchester to be accepted.

Other than that you don’t hear from her, small important stuff just isn’t important to her.

 

[childwallblues]

I would assume that the 319s would be replaced by the 331/1 on the Liverpool-Wigan/Blackpool North services on which the 323s are too small.

 

[Neptune]

I would assume that the 319s would be replaced by the 331/1 on the Liverpool-Wigan/Blackpool North services on which the 323s are too small.

Yes that is the plan.

 

[jonesy3001]

So what routes will the 319s be on since they don't go on the south manchester lines anymore.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So what routes will the 319s be on since they don't go on the south manchester lines anymore.

Eventually (when the West Mids 323s arrive) they'll be handed back to the lessors... and then probably scrapped.

 

[Mamorin]

Eventually (when the West Mids 323s arrive) they'll be handed back to the lessors... and then probably scrapped.

The 319s will go long before the West Midlands 323s arrive, see Neptune's post #9,918.

 

[mcnw35282]

Ahh, it's nice to see that those on the St Helens Central corridor will be getting even more seats for their lovely half-hourly* service.

Meanwhile, us poor saps on the St Helens Junction corridor will have to make do with hourly, crush-loaded 323s.

Absolute joke.

(* 3 trains per hour if you count the semi fast BPN-LIV service)

 

[Mamorin]

Once the West Midlands 323s arrive next year I think most 323 diagrams will go from 3 cars to 6 cars. (Platform lengths permitting of course since 323s don't have SDO/ASDO)

 

[prod_pep]

The 323s are not too small for the half-hourly Wigan stoppers in a million years. I think a four carriage 331 will be wasted on such a service when the Liverpool - Blackpool fasts are far busier and could justify six carriages at times.

The loss of seats and overall length of a 319 compared with a 323 is small, especially when the stoppers are generally nowhere near full anyway.

 

[Harvey B]

They haven't fitted TrainFX on any of the 333's at the moment. I actually prefer the green destination screens and the voice on them right now.

That's just my opinion on this though.

Does anyone know if the 333's will retain their current Dot Matrix PIS screens when they eventually get Train FX?

 

[reecestrains]

My guess is they'll get changed. They did that on some of the Class 158's and the Class 170's. I'd personally prefer it as they are now.

Also, the 333's are doing Doncaster in the December 2023 timetable change according to a conductor I spoke to yesterday.

 

[Neptune]

Also, the 333's are doing Doncaster in the December 2023 timetable change according to a conductor I spoke to yesterday.

The conductor is misinformed.

Looking at the unit diagrams for Dec 23 and its 3 car 331’s on Doncaster. Unlikely to see 333’s on there until they can be released by the platform lengthening and subsequent 6 car 331 working on the Leeds NW Triangle. This is provisionally going to be Dec 24.

 

[skyhigh]

Does anyone know if the 333's will retain their current Dot Matrix PIS screens when they eventually get Train FX?

No.

 

[jonesy3001]

Any ideas which of the 331/0s are moving east or is it which ones are available?

 

[Harvey B]

The conductor is misinformed.

Looking at the unit diagrams for Dec 23 and its 3 car 331’s on Doncaster. Unlikely to see 333’s on there until they can be released by the platform lengthening and subsequent 6 car 331 working on the Leeds NW Triangle. This is provisionally going to be Dec 24.

So will the 333s remain diagrammed on triangle services when Diagrams for 6 car 331s start?