Help/Advice Needed Train Fine/Court

[Cwg12]

I was on a short journey which ticket price was only £6 and I normally buy on train but a warden fined me didn’t offer my a promise to pay but says in letter he did which he defo didn’t, I panicked gave real first name fake last name and right dob and correct flat block address but wrong flat number, do I have a leg to stand on tried to appeal but no luck as should of bought from office, I’ve had two letters which I returned to sender saying incorrect address and now I’ve just had a letter saying I’m going to court if I don’t plead guilty and pay £141 will I just have to pay it or can they not do anything if my name is incorrect and incorrect flat number
Thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

It would be really helpful if you could show us the letters you've received - all of them would be good, but it's probably the most recent one that's most important. Make sure that you hide anything that would tell us your details - even if they are fake, you don't want the whole internet to know!

As to whether you can get out of this because the name and address are wrong, I am pretty sure that you can't. For a start, they're wrong because you gave the wrong details to the railway, so you can't really blame them for using the details you've given. And for another, the important thing in law is that the right person has to pay up - and that means the person who travelled, whatever name and address they gave. If the railway can be certain that it's you, then it doesn't really matter what name or address you gave to identify yourself. And since you're receiving the letters, that means that if the railway want to send debt collectors to get the money owed from you, or the court send someone to bring you to court, then they'll be able to do that just as well as the Royal Mail are getting the letters to somewhere where you can pick them up.

 

[penalty fares]

By doing what you have done with giving false details is a criminal offence. Penalty fares is a civil offence and you could have just paid it and given yourself less heart ache. By replying not known at the address is also a criminal offence. If body worn video was used or they have CCTV stills then you may have other issues there. If they have found you and said that as the fare is unpaid its now a criminal offence, then I would reply asking for an out of court settlement. Plead that you were scared and confused and you may get away with it, costing a smaller amount than going to court. If it goes to court and your found guilty, then it will be around 6 to 700 pounds and a criminal record depending on which legislation is used.

 

[spag23]

I’ve just had a letter saying I’m going to court if I don’t plead guilty

Perhaps they are offering an out of court settlement if the OP "fesses up" now, rather than formally pleading guilty - in the future - to a Court? The (suitably redacted) letter would make this clear to us. If it IS an out of court settlement, I'd be inclined to gratefully pay it pronto, in view of the alternatives.

 

[Cwg12]

Welcome to the forum!

It would be really helpful if you could show us the letters you've received - all of them would be good, but it's probably the most recent one that's most important. Make sure that you hide anything that would tell us your details - even if they are fake, you don't want the whole internet to know!

As to whether you can get out of this because the name and address are wrong, I am pretty sure that you can't. For a start, they're wrong because you gave the wrong details to the railway, so you can't really blame them for using the details you've given. And for another, the important thing in law is that the right person has to pay up - and that means the person who travelled, whatever name and address they gave. If the railway can be certain that it's you, then it doesn't really matter what name or address you gave to identify yourself. And since you're receiving the letters, that means that if the railway want to send debt collectors to get the money owed from you, or the court send someone to bring you to court, then they'll be able to do that just as well as the Royal Mail are getting the letters to somewhere where you can pick them up.

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By doing what you have done with giving false details is a criminal offence. Penalty fares is a civil offence and you could have just paid it and given yourself less heart ache. By replying not known at the address is also a criminal offence. If body worn video was used or they have CCTV stills then you may have other issues there. If they have found you and said that as the fare is unpaid its now a criminal offence, then I would reply asking for an out of court settlement. Plead that you were scared and confused and you may get away with it, costing a smaller amount than going to court. If it goes to court and your found guilty, then it will be around 6 to 700 pounds and a criminal record depending on which legislation is used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2023 ==

That’s what I received and I know silly move regret it so much but I really can’t afford a £141 fine would not be possible with my financial situation, could I not say my landlord recieved the other two letters and I never recieved them as I made them aware on the appeal the address is incorrect

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Is it possible to make monthly payments?

 

[island]

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That’s what I received and I know silly move regret it so much but I really can’t afford a £141 fine would not be possible with my financial situation, could I not say my landlord recieved the other two letters and I never recieved them as I made them aware on the appeal the address is incorrect

As the cause of them sending to a wrong address is you giving false details, that argument won’t go anywhere.

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Is it possible to make monthly payments?

If you wish to take up the offer of settlement for £135, that will need to be paid in one go.

If the matter goes to court and you get convicted, the fine will almost certainly be higher, but you’ll usually be able to pay over up to 12 months and have payment deducted directly from your benefits/wages.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If you wish to take up the offer of settlement for £135, that will need to be paid in one go.

If the matter goes to court and you get convicted, the fine will almost certainly be higher, but you’ll usually be able to pay over up to 12 months and have payment deducted directly from your benefits/wages.

In cash terms, £135 plus the fare (so £141 as you have said) is likely to be by some way the smallest amount to pay: if this goes to court and you lose, as well as the fare and the costs there will be a fine as well, based on your income but typically a couple of hundred pounds.

If you can possibly pay the £141 all at once, I would suggest you do so. Think about whether you can afford it by not having fun (the pub or footie or the cinema) for a couple of months. Although it's an expensive way to borrow, do you have a credit card. If you are a member of a religious, cultural or national community, is there a fund at church/gurdwara/mosque/synagogue/social club that can lend you the money? What about family? Don't go to loan sharks but otherwise do what you can to raise the money.

 

[SuspectUsual]

If you can possibly pay the £141 all at once, I would suggest you do so. Think about whether you can afford it by not having fun (the pub or footie or the cinema) for a couple of months. Although it's an expensive way to borrow, do you have a credit card. If you are a member of a religious, cultural or national community, is there a fund at church/gurdwara/mosque/synagogue/social club that can lend you the money? What about family? Don't go to loan sharks but otherwise do what you can to raise the money

Or a credit union, if there is one where the OP lives

 

[KirkstallOne]

This looks like another Northern case where a Single Justice Procedure Notice has been issued after a penalty fare was unpaid.

Presumably this is for a Section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 charge, it would be useful if you could confirm.

In this case, you are guilty of that offence, not for the reason they claim (non payment of fare) but for the fact you did not give your name and address on request. If you had given your correct name and address you would have a very good chance of winning any court case. Since you didn’t I would recommend paying the settlement offer before they discover this.

You could try and ignore it in the hope they never discover your real name and address but I don’t think anyone on this forum would recommend that. It doesn’t sound like it would be too hard to trace you since you have given partially correct details and someone (you) has been returning their letters.

 

[Krokodil]

That’s what I received and I know silly move regret it so much but I really can’t afford a £141 fine would not be possible with my financial situation

In which case you can hardly afford to risk this going to court.

could I not say my landlord recieved the other two letters and I never recieved them as I made them aware on the appeal the address is incorrect

When in a hole, stop digging.

 

[island]

Presumably this is for a Section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 charge, it would be useful if you could confirm.

The document extract in post 4 refers to Railway Byelaws.

 

[KirkstallOne]

The document extract in post 4 refers to Railway Byelaws.

I must be missing something, I can only see the generic ‘settlement offer’ in the upload and the header of what looks like a Northern SJP Notice behind it. They should be barred from a bye-law prosecution as OP appealed their penalty fare.

 

[Haywain]

I must be missing something, I can only see the generic ‘settlement offer’ in the upload and the header of what looks like a Northern SJP Notice behind it. They should be barred from a bye-law prosecution as OP appealed their penalty fare.

I can see no explicit reference to either a Penalty Fare or an appeal.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I can see no explicit reference to either a Penalty Fare or an appeal.

He said ‘as I made them aware on the appeal the address is incorrect’ in his second post, but I agree this is reading a lot into not much info from the OP unless they want to outline what has happened in more detail.

 

[Cwg12]

I appealed and they rejected it due to saying I had opportunities to buy a ticket, in my letter I have that pictured a charge sheet, a to be returned to court sheet with a guilty or not guilty plea a witness statement from the warden and an MC100 sheet

 

[AlterEgo]

I appealed and they rejected it due to saying I had opportunities to buy a ticket, in my letter I have that pictured a charge sheet, a to be returned to court sheet with a guilty or not guilty plea a witness statement from the warden and an MC100 sheet

What did you appeal? Were you issued a Penalty Fare? This is critically important.

 

[Cwg12]

Letter

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Will I get a 33% discount if ring up an pay?

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What did you appeal? Were you issued a Penalty Fare? This is critically important.

Yes I was

 

[Haywain]

I appealed and they rejected it due to saying I had opportunities to buy a ticket, in my letter I have that pictured a charge sheet, a to be returned to court sheet with a guilty or not guilty plea a witness statement from the warden and an MC100 sheet

It's not clear what you appealed though. Was it a letter you had received from the train company?

 

[Cwg12]

It's not clear what you appealed though. Was it a letter you had received from the train company?

I appealed the penalty fare from the warden on train for no ticket as I tried to buy on train

 

[AlterEgo]

Please post the image of the Penalty Fare, and details of your appeal correspondence. It may be that the company cannot being criminal action against you.

 

[Cwg12]

Please post the image of the Penalty Fare, and details of your appeal correspondence. It may be that the company cannot being criminal action against you.

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A

 

[KirkstallOne]

It’s still not clear exactly what they have charged you with. Was there a ‘written charge’ included? It should say something like ‘failed to produce a ticket contrary to [some specific legislation]’.

We need to know what the specific legislation is.

 

[John Palmer]

Please also post a copy of the reverse of the Single Justice Notice where the charge against you is set out, and the prosecution witness statement that is stated to have accompanied the other court papers. Obscure any details on the image to be posted that would identify you. The sheet to be returned to the court setting out your plea only gives abbreviated details of the offence charged, and I would expect the reverse to the Single Justice Notice to contain the full statement of the charge including details the legislation under which it has been brought, as @KirkstallOne has pointed out.

 

[Cwg12]

It’s still not clear exactly what they have charged you with. Was there a ‘written charge’ included? It should say something like ‘failed to produce a ticket contrary to [some specific legislation]’.

We need to know what the specific legislation is.

On the penalty fare or on the letter?

 

[KirkstallOne]

Included with the documents that arrived with the Single Justice Procedure Notice.

 

[Cwg12]

It’s still not clear exactly what they have charged you with. Was there a ‘written charge’ included? It should say something like ‘failed to produce a ticket contrary to [some specific legislation]’.

We need to know what the specific legislation is.

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Included with the documents that arrived with the Single Justice Procedure Notice.

Have attached

 

[island]

This prosecution is defective as the offence under section 5 (1) can only occur if the passenger fails to show a valid ticket, and fails to pay the fare, and fails to provide their name and address.

I believe Northern also isn’t allowed to commence this prosecution via single justice procedure notice either.

 

[Cwg12]

This prosecution is defective as the offence under section 5 (1) can only occur if the passenger fails to show a valid ticket, and fails to pay the fare, and fails to provide their name and address.

I believe Northern also isn’t allowed to commence this prosecution via single justice procedure notice either.

So what would you suggest doing, responding via letter quoting this or ?

 

[Haywain]

the offence under section 5 (1) can only occur if the passenger fails to show a valid ticket, and fails to pay the fare, and fails to provide their name and address.

As a fake name was given, haven't all 3 been failed?

 

[island]

As a fake name was given, haven't all 3 been failed?

You are entirely correct; I have mixed my threads up.

Perhaps someone closer to the nitty gritty of SJPNs may be able to confirm or correct me on the question of whether this prosecution may legitimately be commenced by SJPN, or needs to be commenced by the laying of information.