Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[yorksrob]

Until I moved south I really didn't understand the difference between CEP, CIG and VEP (REPs had long gone by then). I soon worked out that CEPs were by far the best of the three.

Phase 1 CIG's were, by a country mile !

 

[daodao]

More likely things would have been like Germany - a motorway network more or less as is, and a constant drip-drip of rural closures continuing to this day, a few a year.

There are still a few basket-case lines in Great Britain that escaped the Beeching-inspired axe and run through empty countryside serving very few places with any significant population. Examples include the Settle and Carlisle line and the West Highland extension. It would be quite a sight to watch the dynamiting of Ribblehead and Glenfinnan viaducts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are still a few basket-case lines in Great Britain that escaped the Beeching-inspired axe and run through empty countryside serving very few places with any significant population. Examples include the Settle and Carlisle line and the West Highland extension. It would be quite a sight to watch the dynamiting of Ribblehead and Glenfinnan viaducts.

Even if the lines do eventually close, one hopes such vandalism would never be countenanced and the routes would become used as foot and cycle paths. That is an unbelievably vinctictive view.

 

[Krokodil]

That is an unbelievably vinctictive view.

It's the sort of thing that has gone on in the past. Scorched earth policies to prevent any reinstatement.

 

[Silenos]

It's the sort of thing that has gone on in the past. Scorched earth policies to prevent any reinstatement.

And not that different from the Highways Agency concreting-in road bridges that cross potentially reinstatable lines, which continues to this day.

 

[theageofthetra]

It's embarrassing for Scotrail and Scotland that despite hollow 'green' soundbites everywhere you have to print off 3 paper tickets to get anywhere when booking as rail staff. Whilst missing trains when there's a queue at the TVMs

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the sort of thing that has gone on in the past. Scorched earth policies to prevent any reinstatement.

Indeed. But even given that a reinstatement of a closed S&C, Mallaig, Stranraer or Conwy Valley would be very unlikely, that sort of line makes for superb tourist opportunities like footpaths, cycle paths or even railbikes, and so the wanton vandalism of their structures benefit nobody.

 

[43096]

As HST power cars (there's a clue in that name) contain guard's vans, then they're just as much multiple units as an MLV or class 128s

Last time I checked there was no passenger accommodation or guards facilities in an HST power car.

 

[43096]

Mk3s were pretty average to rubbish, with outdated slam doors when sliding were possible, unreliable aircon, high windows, poor window alignment, poor legroom, bad seats, an odd jiggly ride with an annoying side to side sway and excessively bright lighting (what's new?)

I assume you’re referring to a Mark 3 Cortina.

Similarly, Mk4s as built were rubbish, visibly built down to a price, though the later refurbishments made them quite good, though the ride is still poor.

Agreed, although the ride is better than an IET on the same route.

 

[Herefordian]

There are still a few basket-case lines in Great Britain that escaped the Beeching-inspired axe and run through empty countryside serving very few places with any significant population. Examples include the Settle and Carlisle line and the West Highland extension. It would be quite a sight to watch the dynamiting of Ribblehead and Glenfinnan viaducts.

I think "spiteful" is more accurate for this one. Controversial doesn't come close.

However, I thought it might please you to know they're both listed structures.

That means they'll be preserved for the rest of us, and future generations, to enjoy.

 

[gg1]

The West Midlands metro line 1 was a mistake. The Snow Hill to Wolves LL line should instead have been re-opened in it's entirety as a heavy rail route and served by a 3tph stopper plus the existing Shrewsbury services diverted from the Stour Valley.

 

[SuspectUsual]

the GWR had it sort of right with their "xxxxxxx Road" naming convention. Any station more than a mile from the place its named for should have to have some sort of suffix to indicate its nowhere near

 

[Trainguy34]

the GWR had it sort of right with their "xxxxxxx Road" naming convention. Any station more than a mile from the place its named for should have to have some sort of suffix to indicate its nowhere near

For me that's just common sense, not controversial.

 

[riceuten]

The West Midlands metro line 1 was a mistake. The Snow Hill to Wolves LL line should instead have been re-opened in it's entirety as a heavy rail route and served by a 3tph stopper plus the existing Shrewsbury services diverted from the Stour Valley.

And the numerous intermediate stops served en route ?

 

[Meerkat]

As for competition, the car is the competitor and it's high time the railway realised that.

And OA competition gets people out their cars more than the DfT using Intercity as a cash cow to cross subsidise basket cases.

Cars>public transport
9. British weather. Going out for the day in the car I have umbrellas in the boot, a coat and hoodie on the back seat etc etc Don’t want to be lugging that on the train, nor walking round my destination in clothing inappropriate for how the weather has turned out by the time I get there (and if it’s bad/overcrowded I can jump back in the car and go somewhere else). Plus having food and drink in the car, and maybe some kit in case I decide to grab a hotel and stay longer.

Pacers. A low seat back Pacer was fantastic for trundling along Dawlish - marvellous field of view.

 

[gg1]

And the numerous intermediate stops served en route ?

Many of them would never had opened.

I'd have gone for something along the lines of: Snow Hill>Jewellery Quarter>Soho>The Hawthorns>West Bromwich Central >Black Lake>Wednesbury Central>Bradley Lane>Bilston>Priestfield>Wolverhampton

 

[riceuten]

Many of them would never had opened.

I'd have gone for something along the lines of: Snow Hill>Jewellery Quarter>Soho>The Hawthorns>West Bromwich Central >Black Lake>Wednesbury Central>Bradley Lane>Bilston>Priestfield>Wolverhampton

And if the intermediate stops hadn't opened, that would have meant more bus or car journeys.

 

[gg1]

And if the intermediate stops hadn't opened, that would have meant more bus or car journeys.

But on the other hand it would also result in faster journey times from those stations which are open, better rail connectivity at the Wolverhampton end (by way of a covered escalator & lift between LL and HL stations) and, by freeing up two paths each way on the Stour Valley, allow for an improved service on that route. All of the above would make travel from those stations more desirable than it is now so pushing up rail usage. Whether that would result in an overall net increase or net decrease in train/tram usage over the the entire Birmingham to Wolverhampton corridor is something we'll never know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And OA competition gets people out their cars more than the DfT using Intercity as a cash cow to cross subsidise basket cases.

It really doesn't, simply because of the volumes involved. Lumo can transport roughly 2000 passengers per day in each direction over the full route. LNER can probably transport abuot 20 times that. Hence the waste of paths.

Cars>public transport

Not if you're going to a big city. Which is why railway lines with London at one end (or secondarily Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Edinburgh) tend to do better than ones without.

There are things for which cars are better, of course.

9. British weather. Going out for the day in the car I have umbrellas in the boot, a coat and hoodie on the back seat etc etc Don’t want to be lugging that on the train, nor walking round my destination in clothing inappropriate for how the weather has turned out by the time I get there (and if it’s bad/overcrowded I can jump back in the car and go somewhere else). Plus having food and drink in the car, and maybe some kit in case I decide to grab a hotel and stay longer.

There are good reasons to go by car, but have you heard of a rucksack? All of that will easily fit in a small one, perhaps twenty or thirty litres. "I want a warm jumper, a coat and a flask" is a rubbish reason to go by car. Literally every member of the Ramblers will have that in their rucksack on a walk.

Almost nobody randomly "grabs a hotel", if nothing else it's an extremely expensive way of doing things. There are exceptions, but if you're wanting something like a Premier Inn in a desirable place at the last minute you're likely talking £150+, in some cases £200+. They are often very cheap on a Sunday night, but that'd mostly require a day off work or a very early start, and few bosses would take kindly to a call on Monday morning asking for that day off unless it was for something like a family emergency.

We have the "RUK Standard Minority" to describe a bizarre character with all 8 protected characteristics plus some other stuff who doesn't really exist (and certainly doesn't travel on trains alone) and is used to justify why it's absolutely urgent to have a wheelchair space and an accessible bog on the roof so they can indulge their pantograph spotting hobby (or somesuch) - often we seem to get things like this come up that almost nobody ever does unless they're privileged enough to be both retired and rich*. And TBH even if you did do that, a spare T-shirt, underwear and socks hardly takes up a lot of space, and hotels provide toiletries etc.

* My parents are in fact retired and fairly rich, spending half their lives on cruises. However I've never heard of them doing that - so add "and like to travel spontaneously" to the list - it's really going to be almost nobody.

Pacers. A low seat back Pacer was fantastic for trundling along Dawlish - marvellous field of view.

Very true. That I think is partly why they're finding favour at heritage lines, particularly scenic ones.

 

[LYuen]

Manchester Metrolink needs an underground third city crossing.
A Germany's U-bahn style system (trams going underground in city centre) may be suitable

 

[quantinghome]

It's the sort of thing that has gone on in the past. Scorched earth policies to prevent any reinstatement.

That's not really the case. Some lines were closed because they had some really monumental structures which had very high maintenance costs compared to the low levels of traffic revenue once freight traffic dried up. Demolishing the structures to remove maintenance liabilities was a large part of the reason for closing the line in the first place.

http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/bridges/demolished/index.html

Sad to see them go of course, but many had lost their purpose and any preservation should have come under heritage preservation rather than a liability for the railways to carry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester Metrolink needs an underground third city crossing.
A Germany's U-bahn style system (trams going underground in city centre) may be suitable

Is that controversial? I'd see that as almost certain to happen within 50 years.

 

[Envy123]

Peterborough definitely needs a second station to the south near Yaxley/Farcet/Hampton. Otherwise, as it stands, one would need to drive to the city centre and then go back south via rail.

 

[riceuten]

But on the other hand it would also result in faster journey times from those stations which are open, better rail connectivity at the Wolverhampton end (by way of a covered escalator & lift between LL and HL stations) and, by freeing up two paths each way on the Stour Valley, allow for an improved service on that route. All of the above would make travel from those stations more desirable than it is now so pushing up rail usage. Whether that would result in an overall net increase or net decrease in train/tram usage over the the entire Birmingham to Wolverhampton corridor is something we'll never know.

Let me take a wild guess here - you live either in Wolverhampton or on the Stour Valley, and don't particularly care about people living in intermediate locations?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2023 ==

Peterborough definitely needs a second station to the south near Yaxley/Farcet/Hampton. Otherwise, as it stands, one would need to drive to the city centre and then go back south via rail.

I used to work for the local Council that included Yaxley, Farcet and Hampton, and we often talked about the lack of a stop from Huntingdon to Peterborough and what a difference one would make. The issue I believe, talking to railway types and staff was the fact that the line was not 4 track throughout and that limited what could be pushed through in either direction. And adding an additional line, due to the boggy nature of the Fen round there, would be ruinously expensive to do. There would be considerable challenge also in tempting people out of their cars in this part of the world, unless you put a substantial development next to the proposed station. Holme was talked about, as there had previously been a station there, I believe, but that's next to a massive nature reserve. And people oppose just about any development there - and Councillors want to get reelected - (whilst simultaneously telling the local council that there aren't enough homes for their kids...). Yaxley does have a fairly regular bus service from Peterborough. Maybe they need another misguided bus?

Disused Stations: Holme Station

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2023 ==

Manchester Metrolink needs an underground third city crossing.
A Germany's U-bahn style system (trams going underground in city centre) may be suitable

I'd be intrigued as to what route you think this should take.

 

[Envy123]

I used to work for the local Council that included Yaxley, Farcet and Hampton, and we often talked about the lack of a stop from Huntingdon to Peterborough and what a difference one would make. The issue I believe, talking to railway types and staff was the fact that the line was not 4 track throughout and that limited what could be pushed through in either direction. And adding an additional line, due to the boggy nature of the Fen round there, would be ruinously expensive to do. There would be considerable challenge also in tempting people out of their cars in this part of the world, unless you put a substantial development next to the proposed station. Holme was talked about, as there had previously been a station there, I believe, but that's next to a massive nature reserve. And people oppose just about any development there - and Councillors want to get reelected - (whilst simultaneously telling the local council that there aren't enough homes for their kids...). Yaxley does have a fairly regular bus service from Peterborough. Maybe they need another misguided bus?

Interesting. Holme would be too far and remote, then, with regular buses from Yaxley and Hampton to Peterborough. And I guess only Thameslink would serve the theoretical southern station.

Another alternative is either a guided busway to the station or an actual metro. As much as I like my city, none of these would likely happen in my lifetime as I know the council all too well.

 

[gg1]

Let me take a wild guess here - you live either in Wolverhampton or on the Stour Valley, and don't particularly care about people living in intermediate locations?

Neither, I currently live in Halesowen so neither route is useful for me personally for local journeys. My opinion is based on my perception of the relative benefits of the two options to the area and that transport corridor as a whole.

I did live in the area served by the Metro when I was younger (literally a few minutes walk away from the then disused trackbed) but moved away a year or two before the Metro opened, my parents moved away in the mid 00's. I thought re-opening it as a tram route was a huge missed opportunity at the time and nothing has happened to change my mind since.

 

[Robert Ambler]

Peterborough definitely needs a second station to the south near Yaxley/Farcet/Hampton. Otherwise, as it stands, one would need to drive to the city centre and then go back south via rail.

Wasn't a station planned for Hampton and the land is still set aside for it by the developer? The issues are I think that the line really needs to be 4 tracks at this point for it to be workable and the local authority seem to think it is all nothing to do with them and Network Rail should be bringing forward the station project and funding it without any input from them.

 

[gravitystorm]

My controversial opinion - all 1/3 off railcards should be scrapped, and all fares reduced by the whatever all those discounts nationally added up to. These railcards are just a way of overcharging the unaware, the first time railway user, or the solo traveller, and unintentionally act to put off people who see the headline ticket prices for rail journeys and don't know all the tricks involved in reducing them.

Oh, and they bring unnecessary stress to railway travel. From reading these forums, I now know that if I forget to renew our two-together card, I could be on the hook for thousands of pounds of fresh, completely undiscounted tickets. Not the £30 I forgot to pay, or the 1/3 discount that I shouldn't have got, not even the full price of the advance tickets that I bought, oh no sir, just the full walk-up price of whichever ticket I would have never bought in the first place. In any other situation, that would be called a scam.

So let's do away with these railcards, and do away with all this insider baseball stuff, and stick to straightforward, pay-for-the-seat ticket prices instead.

 

[PauloDavesi]

Delay repay should be paid at the rate of 100% of the standard single walk up fare if there is any delay to the arrival time.

This will encourage the industry to improve the on time performance, and encourage new passengers.

 

[HarryF]

The UK railways need to look at Deutsche Bahn as an example of how not to run a railway.