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Why is Wi-Fi limited and so poor?

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domcoop7

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Maybe not as bad as I thought then, though so far as I know it's ending soon or has already ended on EE PAYG.

I suppose £10/month isn't too unreasonable for pay monthy.
Even in Free EU Roaming days, I was on Virgin and the offering was absolutely dire. Completely and totally unusable (barely connected to 2G let alone anything better). I just bought a SIM card from a Dutch company. But then had a problem because apparently you needed to have a Dutch ID to activate it so I had to call a Dutch call centre (thankfully they all speak English!) and pretend I lived at a random street in Amsterdam somewhere I googled. But it cost €15 or thereabouts and gave unlimited data for a month (which was more than enough for the trip).

As for on train wifi, my most recent experience was in March trying to work on the train from Wigan to Carlisle. The Avanti WiFi obviously didn't work. It would randomly connect to the log on portal and not get past that. Then it did log on, but just repeatedly disconnected (which was annoying as my laptop then tried to connect thinking it was a good network, when in reality it wasn't). I just deleted the network and used tethering, which also barely worked.

WiFi as a technology has some pretty serious limitations. First is that the original spec 802.11b/g only has 13 "channels" and any other user of the same "channel" as you will interfere with your own signal. Other electronic devices also interfere with the channels. It is preferred in WiFi hotspots though because it is cheap and the signal is strong and travels further than the later spec. But that's not the end of it, because the channels overlap. So in reality you can only achieve 3 interference-free channels on a good day. And that's not the end of it, because some devices are set up to try to use the same channels. And that's not the end of it, because when measuring signal "strength" as opposed to signal "quality", the interference isn't detected. So your device gives you "5 bars" or whatever, finds a channel and thinks that it has a good network and will try to connect to it. But the network could be congested and unusable. And that's not the end of it because even if the network is usable, whether badly or otherwise, it just means your device can connect to the hotspot. It doesn't mean the hotspot itself has a good connection to the internet, and there's no way for your device to know that.

The internet - by design - unlike what are called "circuit switched" networks is a "packet switched" network. So devices just send "packets" of data into the void and fingers crossed they get somewhere and something comes back. A circuit switched network (like original landline phones) is only considered "connected" if the origin and destination are known to have a connection, whereas in packet switching, your origin is *required* to not care whether or not there is anything at the other end.

The more modern 802.11g and later variants of WiFi have channels that don't overlap and many more of them. But the signal is weaker and doesn't travel as far. But - as I said above - that only helps you get a connection from device to hotspot. The hotspot itself has to act as a router and know who is connected and where all their "packets" are to be sent to and from. That's easier said than done and cheaper kit will overload itself if too many people try to connect (e.g. on a train). Because of the packet switching, a device doesn't know if it's properly routed or not, it just sends things out and realises a few seconds later that its data hasn't been acknowledged by anything (because the router dropped the packets or the router itself has no signal). But then all the device does is re-send the data, further overloading the router. And if the router also has to do authentication (the so-called "captive portal") that is not part of the WiFi specifications at all, it is a system crowbarred on usually by intercepting traffic and falsely directing you to the address of the portal for it to log you on, and then trying to remember who you are and know if you are allowed to connect or not. This could be done in a number of ways, but I expect the on-train WiFi just VPN all the traffic to a server somewhere (apparently in Sweden in a lot of cases) which may or may not be fast enough to deal with all the users at the same time. And if it isn't fast enough, your device just gives up and starts again, further overloading the network.

4G and 5G have none of this (they are still packet switched though). The only real issues on those networks is getting a signal in the first place, and too many users at one base station saturating it (by too many, I mean in a festival or at a football match). But obviously a 5G cell tower is an order of magnitude more expensive than even the most expensive WiFi hotspot kit, (tens of thousands just for the ground-based base station kit alone, and then you have the antenna, the construction, power supply, etc. so I'd guess you're well over £100k per station) although it's also an order of magnitude more reliable and can handle thousands of users easily.
 
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sor

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Even in Free EU Roaming days, I was on Virgin and the offering was absolutely dire. Completely and totally unusable (barely connected to 2G let alone anything better). I just bought a SIM card from a Dutch company. But then had a problem because apparently you needed to have a Dutch ID to activate it so I had to call a Dutch call centre (thankfully they all speak English!) and pretend I lived at a random street in Amsterdam somewhere I googled. But it cost €15 or thereabouts and gave unlimited data for a month (which was more than enough for the trip).

Worked fine on my recent trip - including in the netherlands where I was seeing 5G speeds equivalent to what I can get in the UK.

WiFi as a technology has some pretty serious limitations. First is that the original spec 802.11b/g only has 13 "channels" and any other user of the same "channel" as you will interfere with your own signal. Other electronic devices also interfere with the channels. It is preferred in WiFi hotspots though because it is cheap and the signal is strong and travels further than the later spec. But that's not the end of it, because the channels overlap. So in reality you can only achieve 3 interference-free channels on a good day. And that's not the end of it, because some devices are set up to try to use the same channels. And that's not the end of it, because when measuring signal "strength" as opposed to signal "quality", the interference isn't detected. So your device gives you "5 bars" or whatever, finds a channel and thinks that it has a good network and will try to connect to it. But the network could be congested and unusable. And that's not the end of it because even if the network is usable, whether badly or otherwise, it just means your device can connect to the hotspot. It doesn't mean the hotspot itself has a good connection to the internet, and there's no way for your device to know that.

I think your frame of reference is a little out of date - if anyone's still using a b/g device on a train I'd be impressed. Virtually all portable devices are dual band 2.4 and 5GHz these days, probably at least 802.11n and ac and increasingly likely to be ax too (ie WiFi 6). I would also be surprised if the newer on-train systems are not at least 11n.

The more modern 802.11g and later variants of WiFi have channels that don't overlap and many more of them. But the signal is weaker and doesn't travel as far. But - as I said above - that only helps you get a connection from device to hotspot. The hotspot itself has to act as a router and know who is connected and where all their "packets" are to be sent to and from. That's easier said than done and cheaper kit will overload itself if too many people try to connect (e.g. on a train). Because of the packet switching, a device doesn't know if it's properly routed or not, it just sends things out and realises a few seconds later that its data hasn't been acknowledged by anything (because the router dropped the packets or the router itself has no signal). But then all the device does is re-send the data, further overloading the router. And if the router also has to do authentication (the so-called "captive portal") that is not part of the WiFi specifications at all, it is a system crowbarred on usually by intercepting traffic and falsely directing you to the address of the portal for it to log you on, and then trying to remember who you are and know if you are allowed to connect or not. This could be done in a number of ways, but I expect the on-train WiFi just VPN all the traffic to a server somewhere (apparently in Sweden in a lot of cases) which may or may not be fast enough to deal with all the users at the same time. And if it isn't fast enough, your device just gives up and starts again, further overloading the network.

A WiFi access point knows what devices are associated to it, they don't move around much (except when the owner has gone to the toilet or buffet car where they still exist), and commercial-grade systems have features to move devices between bands and access points as the situation changes. If anything these challenges apply more so to the cellular networks, as hundreds of devices move in and out of range of the cell sites (possibly at high speed) and there's an overhead associated with that (as well as trying to send data or a phone call request to a device that has apparently disappeared).

There is also a standard for hotspot authentication - "Hotspot 2.0" - which also provides additional securtity, though it is not frequently used.

You're concentrating on the wrong area - the issue is likely not with the communications between the device and the access point/on train router, it's about getting the connectivity to the train in the first place. Improving the mobile network along the railway lines would help everyone, but NIMBYism and cost would limit how much can be done. As already said, an on train wifi service could also be provided via LEO satellite and offer a perfectly usable service.
 

Dai Corner

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You're concentrating on the wrong area - the issue is likely not with the communications between the device and the access point/on train router, it's about getting the connectivity to the train in the first place. Improving the mobile network along the railway lines would help everyone, but NIMBYism and cost would limit how much can be done. As already said, an on train wifi service could also be provided via LEO satellite and offer a perfectly usable service.
The frustrating is that the masts are already there for GSM-R (the railway's internal mobile network) but they can only be used for operational purposes. The public networks are not allowed to put their kit on them.
 

jon0844

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Trains are using Wi-Fi 5 at the very least (n) and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some Wi-Fi 6 access points in the future. With at least one AP per coach, connecting to the train Wi-Fi isn't usually a big problem. Even 802.11n has the means to cope with multiple users, for what isn't going to be a massive level of data flow.

Of course if everyone in a coach is also creating their own hotspot then it could become more challenging for some users depending on what they're using. Don't forget there's also USB tethering, which can charge your device from a laptop (which can then be plugged in if necessary) and is almost always faster.
 

kkong

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Satelite is usually not chosen for a few reasons; it's expensive as hell, the equipment is comparatively massive and is less robust, bridges, overhead structures and trees upset it, and even with newer tech like OneWeb and Starlink the latency is still pretty bad.

Viasat are going to be pushing into the rail market once their ViaSat-3 constellation is in operation (Americas this summer, EMEA in early 2024).

The antennas these days (electronically steerable phased arrays) are not so large that would cause a problem on a train (they are fitted on many jet aircraft).

The latency is not an issue for most applications (video/music streaming, web browsing, email).

Albeit it's not going to be the best experience for gaming or video/voice conferencing.
 

hacman

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Viasat are going to be pushing into the rail market once their ViaSat-3 constellation is in operation (Americas this summer, EMEA in early 2024).

The antennas these days (electronically steerable phased arrays) are not so large that would cause a problem on a train (they are fitted on many jet aircraft).

The latency is not an issue for most applications (video/music streaming, web browsing, email).

Albeit it's not going to be the best experience for gaming or video/voice conferencing.

Viasat may be able to push into the market with newer hardware, especially if they can produce low-profile antennas - but up until this point the antennas required for satelite have always been of a size that is problematic. Aircraft are a totally different sitaution, as they don't have to fit within a loading guage, and instead the focus is on avoiding the addition of any drag.

There is also the fact that these devices are often active, and there can be a need to replace or service them, whereas GSM/CDMA antennas are passive and except for instances of physical damage require no intervention for decades at a time.

The latency issue is improved on some newer satelite constellations (Starlink, OneWeb, etc), and may now be considered acceptable, but until recently it absolutely was an issue. Viasat-3 will be geostationary orbit, which at over 35,000KM from earth does introduce significant latency issues even for web browsing. Based on a geostationary orbit, you're looking at 240-250ms just for the signal to travel between the satelite and the ground (round trip). Add a few ms processing time on the satelite, plus the time taken for the traffic to reach it's destination on the public Internet, and this can be starting to reach the 300ms+ range; and this is just one way, so you need to double it for each request! When there is no alternative available this becomes acceptable, but it's not a frustration free experience, especially on modern sites which make heavy use of dynamic content.

Having worked in this industry and been responsible for the WiFi rollout on many rail fleets, I'm doubtful that Viasat will get much takeup on their product outside of routes that have extremely rural/unpopulated sections. This will be a lucrative niche for them I'm sure, but I'd put good money on us not seeing this tech used in the UK any time soon.
 
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Annetts key

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The frustrating is that the masts are already there for GSM-R (the railway's internal mobile network) but they can only be used for operational purposes. The public networks are not allowed to put their kit on them.
Yes, the railway transponders and all associated infrastructure can only be used for railway operational purposes.
However, the commercial mobile telephone networks often do put their own transponders and all associated infrastructure on railway land, or in a corner of a farmers field next or near to the railway boundary.
It’s just that in order for them to do this, the area served has to include villages, or other built up areas, or main roads/motorways for it to be worthwhile.
 

AM9

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I think your frame of reference is a little out of date - if anyone's still using a b/g device on a train I'd be impressed. Virtually all portable devices are dual band 2.4 and 5GHz these days, probably at least 802.11n and ac and increasingly likely to be ax too (ie WiFi 6). I would also be surprised if the newer on-train systems are not at least 11n.and offer a perfectly usable service.
Actually 802.11n uses the same two RF bands as the original 802.11a 802.11b, 802.11g protocols, specifically the 2.4GHz ISM (Industrial Scientific and Medical) band and the unlicensed 5GHz band. Essentially, the 5GHz band has more non-overlapping channels (20) than the 2.4GHz band's (3). It has a shorter range though, particularly when no line-of-sight path can be guaranteed. The 2.4GHz band is a complete 'radio war zone', and IEEE802.11 devices may need to compete with emissions from any of the following:
Bluetooth​
DECT cordless phones​
Radio Amateurs​
Remote controlled toys​
Wireless sensor networks​
Digital camera and microphone links​
Wireless speakers​
Microwave ovens (2.450 GHz)​
The net result is that the band is very susceptible to periods of very poor conditions, and although not all of the above emitters are likely be on a train, (especially with the progressive removal of buffets with microwave ovens ;)), the can easily be a cliff edge condition where so many packets of Wifi data fail to be received, that the system collapses unde the load of retries.
802.11n is a protocal that scans the whiole band looking for available channels and agregates them to increase total bandwidth available to the device. So when the network is under stress, it exacerbates the cliff edge so that many devices cannot get any channel at all.
So on a busy train service, the chaotic wi-fi service is frequently compromised, especially when a few accessing high bandwidth streams such as vido can hog a disproportionate amount of the total bandwidth to the detriment of all others. Of course, a solution here would be to cap the data rate of users to ensure that nobody gets nothing, the principle being that on board wi-fi is a tool for passengers rather than a mobile cinema facility.
 

Energy

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DECT cordless phones
DECT is 1.8-1.9GHz.

Prefering 5Ghz would be fine, there aren't any thick walls inside the carriage which is what usually kills of 5Ghz. Enterprise level modern APs can handle hundreds of devices (look at the RUCKUS stadium level ones) without issues, captive portals and network backhaul are the main issues.
 

sor

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Actually 802.11n uses the same two RF bands as the original 802.11a 802.11b, 802.11g protocols, specifically the 2.4GHz ISM (Industrial Scientific and Medical) band and the unlicensed 5GHz band. Essentially, the 5GHz band has more non-overlapping channels (20) than the 2.4GHz band's (3). It has a shorter range though, particularly when no line-of-sight path can be guaranteed.

I'm not sure where the disagreement is there. My point was that 5GHz provides a lot more capacity, and successive wifi standards provide far more efficient use of that spectrum. My point was also that WiFi use/congestion is not the limiting factor - and as Jon points out, lots of people trying to use personal hotspots is going to be far more of a mess to contend with than one or two APs per carriage). LOS is virtually guaranteed (well maybe it'll have to go through a seat or two) - the antennas are in the ceilings after all!

DECT is 1.8/1.9GHz, and I don't think there's much of that on a train anyway. Nor many wireless microphones unless there's a TV crew on board (which typically do not use 2.4GHz anyway, even the licence free ones). I've personally never seen someone try to use their amateur radio on the train, though as a licencee maybe that's an idea... (is it against any bylaws?)

Put another way - flat dwellers have probably the most challenging Wi-Fi environment due to the things you cite & the proximity of the neighbours. It is generally not a problem with modern equipment. A train on an open stretch of line, outside of a city centre, should be perfect for Wi-Fi.
 

jon0844

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Line of sight is more a thing for mmWave connections, which we don't currently use here. That offers the sort of capacity that most rail users won't need, at least not for free.
 

Energy

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Nor many wireless microphones (which typically do not use 2.4GHz anyway, even the licence free ones)
2.4GHz isn't uncommon now for the cheap ones. Using the licenced (to anyone willing to give Ofcom a small fee) 606-614MHz range and the licence free 863-865MHz range is more common now VHF is becoming much more rare.

Not that this matters. Plenty of businesses manage fine with offices with more devices and more things to interfere.
Line of sight is more a thing for mmWave connections, which we don't currently use here. That offers the sort of capacity that most rail users won't need, at least not for free.
You saying my phone doesn't multiple gbps of capacity :lol:
 

jon0844

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You saying my phone doesn't multiple gbps of capacity :lol:

It might depending on the phone you have, although most devices sold in Europe are sub 6(GHz) only.

My current phone has Wi-Fi 7 and support for multiple 4G and 5G bands, with a theoretical throughput of many Gbps, but I'm not holding out for 2 or 3Gbps on a train just yet!
 

jon0844

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I have recently travelled on it. There was completely no signal on my network (Smarty).
I think only EE has covered the HS1 tunnels, as well as St Pancras low level and the Northern City Line (into Moorgate). Smarty is a Three MVNO.
 

miklcct

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I think only EE has covered the HS1 tunnels, as well as St Pancras low level and the Northern City Line (into Moorgate). Smarty is a Three MVNO.
I have recently switched to Talkmobile which uses Vodafone network. Am I still out of luck?
 

infobleep

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Following on from this, I have a work laptop that uses CISCO AnyConnect VPN software.

It has no issues logging into the South Westeen Railway m, once it is happy to let me use a login page before starting the VPN that is.

However, with Great Western Railway, most of the time it fails to work.

I can just use my mobile but as both phones are with O2 that is patchy and I would hope to get more coverage via the train WiFi.

Today though the Internet isn't working on the GWR train.
 

61653 HTAFC

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There's more and more data allowance in basic cellphone packages these days, so the need for on-train WiFi is shrinking. On the rare occasions that it's actually turned on on the 185s that TPE allocate to the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper, it takes that long to log in that it isn't worth it. It's using the same 4G network that my phone uses anyway, so why bother with the extra step?
 

PGAT

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Surely Wi-Fi is an accessibility feature for those who don't have access to mobile data such as students, poorer people and tourists?
 
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Following on from this, I have a work laptop that uses CISCO AnyConnect VPN software.

It has no issues logging into the South Westeen Railway m, once it is happy to let me use a login page before starting the VPN that is.

However, with Great Western Railway, most of the time it fails to work.

I can just use my mobile but as both phones are with O2 that is patchy and I would hope to get more coverage via the train WiFi.

Today though the Internet isn't working on the GWR train.
Same provider. I can feed on. Can you let me know the service you tried?
 

kevjs

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Captive portals are universally bad though a necessary evil due to terms and conditions.

Open Roaming (Hotspot 2.0) could potentially be a work around for that - install the relevant app and it will automatically & securely sign you in when in range of a relevant Open Roaming WiFi network - e.g. the National Rail app (or The TrainLine, or Trans Pennine Express etc) app could install an Open Roaming Profile once you do a one-off T&C's acceptance, and then roam onto EMR, Northern, TfL etc. Samsung have it built into their Galaxy phones and it worked seamlessly around Canary Wharf (one of the handful of UK deployments). The network could then have a second open SSID for "normal use" with the captive portal.

The EE WiFi-Auto profile also worked well on the under ground stations in London (installed automatically on iPhones, requires a one off bit of faffing on Android) - that wouldn't really scale to all the MVNO's or non-UK mobiles (or even devices without SIMs) - uses the SIM for Authentication and therefore no captive portal.

Would the removal of train wi-fi also affect the ability to display tickets on mobile phone apps, and to use phone apps to track whether your connecting train is running on time or cancelled. I travel on Transpennine Express, so being able to track whether or not my connecting train is running or cancelled is quite important.

Yup - managed to lock myself out my phone on a recent trip back from London, couldn't turn the Hotspot on, so had to connect to EastMidlandsTrains (sic) WiFi on my tablet in a futile attempt to download the Trainline app to access my ticket. Had managed 1% of the download by the time the guard arrived (thankfully he was understanding and agreed to come back 10 minutes later when I could try entering my PIN again) and had only got to 2% by the time he returned! Working WiFi would have meant I could have shown the ticket on my tablet. Being the MML the Mobile signal south of London is pretty much useless (but not as bad as WiFi). Normally hop onto station Wifi when stopped and download what I need.

Even in Free EU Roaming days, I was on Virgin and the offering was absolutely dire. Completely and totally unusable (barely connected to 2G let alone anything better). I just bought a SIM card from a Dutch company. But then had a problem because apparently you needed to have a Dutch ID to activate it so I had to call a Dutch call centre (thankfully they all speak English!) and pretend I lived at a random street in Amsterdam somewhere I googled. But it cost €15 or thereabouts and gave unlimited data for a month (which was more than enough for the trip).

Interestingly on EE the first time I experienced 5G was while roaming in Cyprus where it worked brilliantly, actually better than it does here in the UK (was activated here shortly after my return to the UK) where my plan is capped to 100Mbps.

UK eSIM availability is quite poor though, and if you're referring to the likes of Truphone and Gigsky, these are rather expensive compared to even a big 4 PAYG plan. I don't think those providers let you make phone calls, either. There's just so much more of a barrier than simply clicking connect. If I'd just got off a plane I can't say I'd want to be fussing around with getting a SIM right there and then.

(at least we do not do as some other countries do, and require photo ID even for PAYG)

Lyca Mobile were heavily advertising eSIMs on the tube in London. As I'd blown through my EE allowance I added one to my phone while I was down their £5 for 20GB with 12GB of that available for EU Roaming, I've found I get faster speeds on Lyca than I do on EE even though Lyca use the EE network. You do get bombarded with text's from them trying to upsell though, had to reply STOP to get rid. The rumours are that the next iPhone will be eSIM only (like the US version of the current model is) which will inevitably increase eSIM availability in years to come should that be the case.

Airalo (and others) do various eSIMs - not quite as cheap as the best local SIMs, but something you can sort before going abroad, and depending on your price plan (e.g. my 30GB one) could be better VFM than paying EE's £2.50 a day in the EU if you only care about data and are away for slightly longer than a long weekend. (Airalo being something the various Formula E journalists and drivers use abroad - as I discovered by a F1 journo complaining about EE's OTT costs in Azerbaijan - £5 per 2MB!)
 

mrmartin

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Surely Wi-Fi is an accessibility feature for those who don't have access to mobile data such as students, poorer people and tourists?
Students don't have mobile data :lol:?!

Nearly everyone has a smartphone with mobile data now. The only people who don't are probably (much) older people who wouldn't use WiFi anyway.

Tourists - maybe - but most will have data roaming these days. It's unbelievably difficult to navigate a city as a tourist without mobile data sorted (I can remember and it was a complete nightmare in hindsight, especially if you don't know the local language as there was no Google translate).
 

jfollows

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If your parents don’t pay for it, I know several who are in that boat
I'd be surprised if it were many though - I currently pay £8/month for plenty of roaming data, I might have to keep an eye on my usage a bit if I were a student but back when I was a student in 1980 this amount is something under £2/month in RPI-deflated terms and I'd easily have been able to afford this as a student then. Maybe students are poorer today, or not good at finding better deals for their phones than they have?
 

infobleep

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Same provider. I can feed on. Can you let me know the service you tried?
Thanks for doing that. The 17:39 Guildford to Redhill on Monday (21/08).

It's most trains I get on the North Downs Line but very occasionally it works. I can't tell when it last worked though. Was this year but not in the last month or two.

The previous train it didn't work on might have been the 17:11 on 14/08.
 

kevjs

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I'd be surprised if it were many though - I currently pay £8/month for plenty of roaming data, I might have to keep an eye on my usage a bit if I were a student but back when I was a student in 1980 this amount is something under £2/month in RPI-deflated terms and I'd easily have been able to afford this as a student then. Maybe students are poorer today, or not good at finding better deals for their phones than they have?
Accommodation is much more expensive nowadays (what was < £60 a week in 2000 is now £121 a week, and most accomodation places nearer campus have seen an even larger increase (£200 a week is now normal)).

When WiFi is freely available across campus, available at home (either home broadband or part of the rent), across the city centre, and in pretty much every place you visit (pubs, bars, restaurants) and on buses - is it going to be high up every students priority list? For some people probably not.
 

jon0844

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A phone and mobile data are probably considered more important than accommodation to almost anyone these days.
 

rf_ioliver

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The frustrating is that the masts are already there for GSM-R (the railway's internal mobile network) but they can only be used for operational purposes. The public networks are not allowed to put their kit on them
For good reason too.... GSM-R occupies a veyr small segment of the radio spectrum. If you start putting up additional base stations GSM-R gets swamped with interference - this is why Finland still uses TETRA in many cases - the required flltering and amplification of the signal in that frequency range is problematic to say the least. Interference aside, putting base stations up on those poles also requires the power and networking cabling infrastructure to be installed. Then finally GSM-R is old; the move is for rail applications over 5G and all the nice features 5G provides (bandwidth and latency management, network slicing etc), plus O-RAN to add into the mix.
 
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