Summer Saturdays to Paignton

[Zoe]

True, but not in this market. Clearly.

If you don't run a service then you will never know if people are going to use it or not. It was around 2006 that the remaining A303/A30 upgrades were killed off os to me that would have suggesed that rail is the preferred route to the Westcountry.

 

[4SRKT]

If you don't run a service then you will never know if people are going to use it or not. It was around 2006 that the remaining A303/A30 upgrades were killed off os to me that would have suggesed that rail is the preferred route to the Westcountry.

But the point is that you CAN'T run it economically because you don't have the stock any more. Therefore any talk at all of running such a service is facile. Rail is very clearly NOT the preferred route for the specific market segment of family holiday for a week at the seaside, and the reasons why are obvious. They are the same reasons why families don't get on trains at Euston to Stranraer and Holyhead to get boats to Ireland any more. It's just too much hassle. People did this in their hundreds every day of the year in the past though, but as soon as they didn't have to, they stopped. It's worth a bit of hassle on the M5 or A303 to be able to drive door to door, to be able to stop en route if you fancy it without having to lug suitcases around, to be able to use the car for day trips at the destination (which in the case of Devon isn't well served by local public transport.

If you ran a service selling pork pies in the centre of London for 10p each, you would have a lot of customers. But you couldn't make money at it. Or even break even.

 

[Zoe]

So it was a case of the railways wanting operational convenience then by having less stock?

 

[4SRKT]

So it was a case of the railways wanting operational convenience then by having less stock?

No. Where have I said this? It was fine when stock existed for use during the week for peak time use, and locos for freight, but how can anyone justify purchasing expensive new stock to use a maximum of 15-20 times a year?

 

[Zoe]

No. Where have I said this? It was fine when stock existed for use during the week for peak time use, and locos for freight, but how can anyone justify purchasing expensive new stock to use a maximum of 15-20 times a year?

How about using the extra stock at peak times also so less people have to stand? I'm sure commuters in the Midlands would welcome the extra capacity.

 

[4SRKT]

How about using the extra stock at peak times also so less people have to stand? I'm sure commuters in the Midlands would welcome the extra capacity.

Then it needs to be justified on these criteria, not on the basis that it might be used on Summer Saturdays. If you can justify it on these grounds then yes, it makes sense to use it 15-20 extra times a year. It would be daft not to in fact if you could be sure of filling the trains. However even justifying expensive stock to stand idle most of the day is pretty tricky, never mind for most of the year.

This is where privatisation really has helped to kill off these trains. BR used rakes of (fully depreciated) mk Is to Aberystwyth on summer Saturdays (that during the week worked peak time workings to Northampton), hauled from Shrewsbury by class 37s off Canton that were idle at the weekend. The Oxley-based mk II aircon sets that normally worked between Shrewsbury and Euston in these paths could then work on other summer only trains to the West Country, North Wales or wherever. Essentially BR could do what it liked with its stock without all sorts of complicated contractual nonsense. How could Cross Country (for example) get its hands easily on London Midland sets without a lot of hassle and more expense?

Look, I'm not against the operation of summer extras, just understand why it isn't viable.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Then it needs to be justified on these criteria, not on the basis that it might be used on Summer Saturdays. If you can justify it on these grounds then yes, it makes sense to use it 15-20 extra times a year. It would be daft not to in fact if you could be sure of filling the trains. However even justifying expensive stock to stand idle most of the day is pretty tricky, never mind for most of the year.

This is where privatisation really has helped to kill off these trains. BR used rakes of (fully depreciated) mk Is to Aberystwyth on summer Saturdays (that during the week worked peak time workings to Northampton), hauled from Shrewsbury by class 37s off Canton that were idle at the weekend. The Oxley-based mk II aircon sets that normally worked between Shrewsbury and Euston in these paths could then work on other summer only trains to the West Country, North Wales or wherever. Essentially BR could do what it liked with its stock without all sorts of complicated contractual nonsense. How could Cross Country (for example) get its hands easily on London Midland sets without a lot of hassle and more expense?

Look, I'm not against the operation of summer extras, just understand why it isn't viable.

Once more a railway system not designed around users but shareholders.

XC deliberately chose to stop overnight West Country trains for example, yet they were being used.

And apart from too much contractual red tape, there is no reason why a business case could not include stock for peak time mid-week trains of a good standard that could be used on weekend Summer Saturdays,Winter Xmas shopping extras and charter fleets.

 

[4SRKT]

Once more a railway system not designed around users but shareholders.

XC deliberately chose to stop overnight West Country trains for example, yet they were being used.

And apart from too much contractual red tape, there is no reason why a business case could not include stock for peak time mid-week trains of a good standard that could be used on weekend Summer Saturdays,Winter Xmas shopping extras and charter fleets.

Aaarghh!! Someone else missing the key point about the fact that it's stock availability, not anything else that causes these services not be be run. Be in no doubt, BR would *NOT* have replaced the stock for holiday trains either, and would have got rid of them as well. All current railway operations have their origins in the BR timetables, stock allocations and operating methods of the early 90s.

I agree with the red tape comment though. BR was free both to see opportunities to make extra revenue from this sort of thing, and to put it into action easily.

 

[IanXC]

It was OK to run services like these when BR had huge amounts of depreciated stock that was just used during Monday-Friday peaks, or even just on summer Saturdays.

I seem to have an image of (maybe Thameslink?) 8/12 car EMUs making their way to locations in the West Country on Summer Saturdays, just a little more electrification eh!

But seriously, BR had large amounts of stock for LHCS operation which was only used in the peaks. Similar thing is true now, its just that the peak only stock is mainly concentrated around London, and most routes are electrified. So I'd hope that a wider Summer service could be provided when electrification reaches the relevant destinations.

 

[dk1]

Some of the 70s train frequency where a tad poor. Perhaps we had more patience then.