EMU preservation

[Andy317345]

Apologies if this has already been created/discussed. A thread to discuss future preservation attempts for EMUs.

To start-are there any plans to preserve a 455? I realise the difficulties in preserving EMUs- cost, maintenance, transport, lack of interest and electrified heritage lines ect. But it will be interesting to see if any soon to be withdrawn EMUs get saved.

 

[315801]

Hi Andy317345

I have to admit that although I have not yet read anything regarding the preservation of a class 455 unit, if does not mean that there isn't a group somewhere that may have plans to preserve both a 455/7 & 455/9 variant but as far as far as the southern 455/8 units are concerned I believe they are all in millions of pieces unless anybody knows to the contrary.

Here in the wirral I have been hoping that 2 x 507 units ( 507001 & 002 ) are preserved as they transported our beloved late Queen Elizabeth II around the merseyrail network back in the 1970s and that a 508 unit + the relevant coach from a 455/7 could be reformed into an original 4 coach class 508 as they were when delivered to the south from new.

 

[Andy317345]

Yes, if we get a 507 and 508 saved then that means that we have one example of each PEP class (bar the 445/446). I didn't expect this many PEP classes to be preserved. Reforming a 508 into original 4-car would be interesting to see happen.

I'm hoping someone saves a 455 and possibly a 319 as well. I'm more doubtful about a 321 after the plans for 440 fell through...

 

[Chris 1980]

Hi Andy317345

I have to admit that although I have not yet read anything regarding the preservation of a class 455 unit, if does not mean that there isn't a group somewhere that may have plans to preserve both a 455/7 & 455/9 variant but as far as far as the southern 455/8 units are concerned I believe they are all in millions of pieces unless anybody knows to the contrary.

Here in the wirral I have been hoping that 2 x 507 units ( 507001 & 002 ) are preserved as they transported our beloved late Queen Elizabeth II around the merseyrail network back in the 1970s and that a 508 unit + the relevant coach from a 455/7 could be reformed into an original 4 coach class 508 as they were when delivered to the south from new.

I'm also hoping that if any Merseyrail 507 is to be saved, it definitely should be 507001. (And let's hope that this happens!)

As you rightly said, it transported our late Queen Elizabeth II and was the very first of the 507 class built for Merseyrail. Also, the first 507 I'm sure to go into passenger service in 1978.

It rightly deserves its place in preservation because of the heritage and history behind it!

 

[prod_pep]

Absolutely agree with 507001. That deserves saving in my opinion, and as one of the last overhauled, it should be amongst the very last to go barring a major mishap.

In an ideal world, I would love to see a full four carriage 508 set preserved as well, reuniting a unit with its long-lost trailer from a 455/7. Numbers-wise, 508108 isn't a bad shout as it was the joint first 508 to enter service and was amongst the last 508s overhauled. I think we're all acutely aware it is highly unlikely to happen, sadly.

 

[Chris 1980]

Absolutely agree with 507001. That deserves saving in my opinion, and as one of the last overhauled, it should be amongst the very last to go barring a major mishap.

In an ideal world, I would love to see a full four carriage 508 set preserved as well, reuniting a unit with its long-lost trailer from a 455/7. Numbers-wise, 508108 isn't a bad shout as it was the joint first 508 to enter service and was amongst the last 508s overhauled. I think we're all acutely aware it is highly unlikely to happen, sadly

Absolutely agree with 507001. That deserves saving in my opinion, and as one of the last overhauled, it should be amongst the very last to go barring a major mishap.

In an ideal world, I would love to see a full four carriage 508 set preserved as well, reuniting a unit with its long-lost trailer from a 455/7. Numbers-wise, 508108 isn't a bad shout as it was the joint first 508 to enter service and was amongst the last 508s overhauled. I think we're all acutely aware it is highly unlikely to happen, sadly.

Regarding a 508, I think you could be right sadly.

There was numerous rumours going around the internet regarding 508111, (The Beatles) being donated by Angel Trains to the city of Liverpool when it is withdrawn. (Looking likely around September 2nd it will be stopped.)
As far as I'm aware from groups on Facebook, it is down then as being off to Sims on September, 7th.

Any chances now of that one surviving despite all the rumours online I think now is not got to happen, sadly.

So many of us would absolutely love to see 001 saved though! I even emailed the Crewe Heritage Centre myself a few weeks back regarding it but haven't heard nothing back from them yet.

I also commented back on a group with that recent 313 going to the Heritage Centre in Fife the other day which will now be saved and have a future. I mentioned 507001 there. The bloke I replied to said we are not sure whether or not that will be offered to us but you never know. He was however, going to ask someone in the Heritage Centre about it.

I wonder if the new extended Birkenhead Museum would be willing to have it there as someone did mention that location on another thread.

 

[Andy317345]

We already have a 502 and a 503 unit preserved so it will be fitting to see a 507 saved

 

[tumbles]

Yes, if we get a 507 and 508 saved then that means that we have one example of each PEP class (bar the 445/446). I didn't expect this many PEP classes to be preserved. Reforming a 508 into original 4-car would be interesting to see happen.

I'm hoping someone saves a 455 and possibly a 319 as well. I'm more doubtful about a 321 after the plans for 440 fell through...

On the 319 front wonder if anyone’s considered the TFW 769s which presumably are sat awaiting scrap now after little actual use since conversion!?

 

[Andy317345]

769s also have the advantage of the ability to run off grid which is useful for heritage railways

 

[tumbles]

769s also have the advantage of the ability to run off grid which is useful for heritage railways

Yep although knowing some of the team that spent longer time commissioning those units than they ever were used for the reliability of them maybe questionable!

 

[12LDA28C]

I never really understand the calls to preserve EMUs. Unless one is main line registered which will cost big money, you're never going to see it operating on a preserved railway as it was designed, ie drawing power from third rail or OHLE which means it would either have to be 'dragged' by a diesel loco or be 'stuffed and mounted' as a museum piece.

 

[The Puddock]

I never really understand the calls to preserve EMUs. Unless one is main line registered which will cost big money, you're never going to see it operating on a preserved railway as it was designed, ie drawing power from third rail or OHLE which means it would either have to be 'dragged' by a diesel loco or be 'stuffed and mounted' as a museum piece.

You’re never going to see a Concorde aircraft operating as designed but 18 of them are “stuffed and mouted as museum pieces” as you put it.

 

[12LDA28C]

You’re never going to see a Concorde aircraft operating as designed but 18 of them are “stuffed and mouted as museum pieces” as you put it.

Many of the people calling for EMUs to be preserved are doing so because they have travelled on them regularly in the past and have a certain affection for them born from that. Not sure you can say the same for Concorde. People like to travel on trains on preserved railways - looking at one in a museum setting has rather more limited appeal.

 

[eldomtom2]

I never really understand the calls to preserve EMUs. Unless one is main line registered which will cost big money, you're never going to see it operating on a preserved railway as it was designed, ie drawing power from third rail or OHLE which means it would either have to be 'dragged' by a diesel loco or be 'stuffed and mounted' as a museum piece.

If Crich can have overhead 600V DC wires, what's stopping a heritage railway? Sure there are no overhead DC EMUs left IIRC, but surely it would not be impossible to sympathetically convert (ideally in a reversible manner) a third rail DC EMU to overhead DC power - it's been done elsewhere.

 

[prod_pep]

Conversely, I don't understand the attitude of "if you can't run it, there's no point in preserving it". If an EMU does have to be "stuffed and mounted" as you put it, that's fine. There are preserved trains in such a position across the country already.

Many of the people calling for EMUs to be preserved are doing so because they have travelled on them regularly in the past and have a certain affection for them born from that.

And what's wrong with that? The 507/8s have been around all my life and plenty of us have an affection for them. If sufficient people care enough about them to put their hands in their pockets to save one for posterity, accepting it is unlikely to run again, I really don't see the problem.

 

[m79900]

What I think is a good idea, and a former BR practice, is keeping one or two depot 'Pets', like the 306 and 4SUB were, that they can run out every week or so. I do however understand that this is probably more trouble than it's worth.

 

[12LDA28C]

And what's wrong with that? The 507/8s have been around all my life and plenty of us have an affection for them. If sufficient people care enough about them to put their hands in their pockets to save one for posterity, accepting it is unlikely to run again, I really don't see the problem.

Nothing at all. However, if you liked a particular unit because of the noise it made, or the ride quality, or anything to do with them actually moving in service, clearly you'll have to accept that you won't experience those things again in a sterile museum environment, so it's not quite the same.

 

[prod_pep]

Nothing at all. However, if you liked a particular unit because of the noise it made, or the ride quality, or anything to do with them actually moving in service, clearly you'll have to accept that you won't experience those things again in a sterile museum environment, so it's not quite the same.

You're quite right. It is a shame EMUs can't be preserved as runners but I would much prefer an exhibit to nothing at all. At least we're in an age where their sounds will live on through footage.

 

[tumbles]

I never really understand the calls to preserve EMUs. Unless one is main line registered which will cost big money, you're never going to see it operating on a preserved railway as it was designed, ie drawing power from third rail or OHLE which means it would either have to be 'dragged' by a diesel loco or be 'stuffed and mounted' as a museum piece.

It’s a fair point but battery tech is improving by the day.. it’s possible that you could run them at low speed on a preserved line quite feasibly in future?

I also don’t see too much wrong with dragging them behind a diesel as if wouldn’t be much different to the 4TC units that are under resto at Swanage ?

That said not sue there will be appeal for much above 1st / 2nd gen units at moment. Would like to see the two 4DD units restored and hauled.. you’d think they’d be a crowd puller if you can get over the gauge issues..

 

[gc4946]

I hope there's a battery-powered solution for the PEP-derived units (could a loco be equipped with Tightlock couplers?)
However, a Southern Region battery fitted MLV or converted 2EPB/HAP motor coach can be a good way to power those EMUs in preservation.
I think the Scottish Railway Preservation Society's solution of loco-hauled AC EMU is one way of running trains

OTOH you could argue that a 769 should be preserved because it already has its own means of moving without an overhead or 3rd rail supply. Hope 769 008 is desginated for the national collection because it actually entered the Channel Tunnel on trials (as 319 008) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...#v=onepage&q="319 008" channel tunnel&f=false

 

[A0]

Conversely, I don't understand the attitude of "if you can't run it, there's no point in preserving it". If an EMU does have to be "stuffed and mounted" as you put it, that's fine. There are preserved trains in such a position across the country already.

Which to a point is fine - however that takes up space and unless it's being moved usually means it just sits on a siding rotting away - the ex Mersey 502 being a case in point.

The NRM have already earmaked 313001 for preservation as part of the National Collection - I'm not sure we necessarily need one of every PEP class preserved and can't quite see the justification. To non-enthusiasts there's going to be no discernible difference - and for enthusiasts how many are going to go somewhere just to see a complete Class 507 ? I don't think the EMU museum at Coventry ever had huge visitor numbers and even if a 507 was preserved in the North West where would you suggest ? The East Lancs railway had (opertive word, had) 2 class 504s, they only have one now. I'm not sure they will want to give up siding space for another EMU to sit and decay unused and unusable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2023 ==

It’s a fair point but battery tech is improving by the day.. it’s possible that you could run them at low speed on a preserved line quite feasibly in future?

I also don’t see too much wrong with dragging them behind a diesel as if wouldn’t be much different to the 4TC units that are under resto at Swanage ?

That said not sue there will be appeal for much above 1st / 2nd gen units at moment. Would like to see the two 4DD units restored and hauled.. you’d think they’d be a crowd puller if you can get over the gauge issues..

The 4TC units were, of course, unpowered - the TC designation being 'Trailer Control' - and had been designed to either run in multiple with a powered EMU or be run with a suitable diesel / electric loco. In that sense they are a slightly more advanced form of loco hauled rolling stock. And for Swanage they're appropriate for the line because they were used on the Bournemouth - Weymouth services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2023 ==

You’re never going to see a Concorde aircraft operating as designed but 18 of them are “stuffed and mouted as museum pieces” as you put it.

A bit different - one was a genuine technological 'tour de force'. I'm not sure BR EMUs are in quite the same league.

 

[mjc]

I never really understand the calls to preserve EMUs. Unless one is main line registered which will cost big money, you're never going to see it operating on a preserved railway as it was designed, ie drawing power from third rail or OHLE which means it would either have to be 'dragged' by a diesel loco or be 'stuffed and mounted' as a museum piece.

So battery power just wouldn’t work then?

 

[4SubAsociation]

I hate to put a dampner on this thread.

We already have a 502 and a 503 unit preserved so it will be fitting to see a 507 saved

The 503 is part of the hertiage electric trains trust based in Margate same as 4SUB 4732. However the 503 has not had the easiest time in preservation. I am getting a copy of the article our chairman wrote quite recently about the situation - link here http://www.4sub4732.co.uk/downloads/503/4Sub_TheContactor06_503_Pages.pdf. It is also worth looking at the 503 facebook page if you do a get a chance. Also for a while the Class 503 did not have much support financially speaking, only more recently have some kind people taken up the option of some pledges with the 503. (details can be found here, the packages do say SUB, but they are the same for the 503, bronze or silver are fine - https://www.hett.org.uk/support-us)

Class 503 Unit

Class 503 Unit. 1,028 likes · 2 talking about this. Official page for the last surviving LMS Class 503 EMU vehicle. Driving Motor Brake Second M28690M

www.facebook.com

The main point that came out of the recent posts is where to house the 503 in Wirral area etc. From what transpired there is no options at present to have the 503 in its native opperating area.

Back to the Class 455 point, the above would be the main issue you have with perserving any form of rolling stock, more the case with a EMU as a EMU generally speaking on a perserved railway (at present) can only be used as hauled stock of which some locos which some are more compatible than others (Eg Class 33/1 and Class 73 with the southern region items)

 

[DGH 1]

I never really understand the calls to preserve EMUs. Unless one is main line registered which will cost big money, you're never going to see it operating on a preserved railway as it was designed, ie drawing power from third rail or OHLE which means it would either have to be 'dragged' by a diesel loco or be 'stuffed and mounted' as a museum piece.

I accept that we all have our own opinions of what should be kept and why, I personally mourn the loss of class 304,305,310 etc but saying something shouldn't be saved because it would be stuffed and mounted is I believe a similar attitude that the NRM and others took when individuals wanted D601 and D6122 saving from Barry, and what would we do to have them with us today.

 

[8A Rail]

We already have a 502 and a 503 unit preserved so it will be fitting to see a 507 saved

It very arguable whether you could suggest the Class 503 is preserved, yes it exists just but with no future for it, it is down south (back outside or will be soon) with no where in the north to store it let alone anyone working on it. Fortunately the two car Class 502 is under covered within my area and slowly but surely being restored. However, all well and good, suggesting to preserve a three car Class 507 but where is it going and as well as finding the money and people to look after it but if cannot do anything with the Class 503, what chances have you got with a Class 507? Please do not misunderstand me, I would love a Class 507 to be preserved but you need to think of the practicalities and have a proper plan in place before anyone goes down that route.

 

[bluegoblin7]

The NRM have already earmaked 313001 for preservation as part of the National Collection

Just to pull up on this, 313001/313201 was de-designated some time ago. 313121 was subsequently designated in its place, although I don't know if that remains the case.

Just because an item has been designated it doesn't mean that it will definitely be preserved, nor will it necessarily be preserved at the NRM. Many designated items come to mind that are held in collections other than the NRM.

The reality though is that not everything can, or should, be saved. It's interesting that many commenters are saying 'this should be preserved' or that 'they should save that', but I can't see anyone actually offering to organise and spearhead such a campaign, nor offer time or money to support others.

If you're not prepared to put your hands in your pockets yourself then you don't really get to dictate that others 'should' preserve something. Circling back to 313201, I understand that the fundraising appeal to preserve the unit privately has been extremely mixed.

Others have highlighted how many preserved EMUs are operable, let alone in good general condition. We have three examples of the PEP-derivatives saved. What does saving any more contribute to the story of Britain's railways?

 

[Andy317345]

It very arguable whether you could suggest the Class 503 is preserved, yes it exists just but with no future for it, it is down south (back outside or will be soon) with no where in the north to store it let alone anyone working on it. Fortunately the two car Class 502 is under covered within my area and slowly but surely being restored. However, all well and good, suggesting to preserve a three car Class 507 but where is it going and as well as finding the money and people to look after it but if cannot do anything with the Class 503, what chances have you got with a Class 507? Please do not misunderstand me, I would love a Class 507 to be preserved but you need to think of the practicalities and have a proper plan in place before anyone goes down that route.

I have heard rumours of a 507 unit possibly going to a museum in Liverpool (please correct me if I'm wrong) but the thought of preserving a 507 was merely an idea of mine. I fear that the 503 unit will go down the path of the last remaining 506 unit, if it can't find a home but we can only hope for the best. Again, money, time and locations are a big hurdle in the preservation of EMUs.

I have also heard that the 4-SUB is being restored to operable condition and to make the unit self-propelled and eventually main-line running(Again, correct if I'm wrong) but will need cosmetic work done first.

 

[4SubAsociation]

I have heard rumours of a 507 unit possibly going to a museum in Liverpool (please correct me if I'm wrong) but the thought of preserving a 507 was merely an idea of mine. I fear that the 503 unit will go down the path of the last remaining 506 unit, if it can't find a home but we can only hope for the best. Again, money, time and locations are a big hurdle in the preservation of EMUs.

I have also heard that the 4-SUB is being restored to operable condition and to make the unit self-propelled and eventually main-line running(Again, correct if I'm wrong) but will need cosmetic work done first.

Regarding the 4SUB. Not at present. Currently the plan is at least get one of the carriages cosmetically restored. That would be 12796 as this is the easiest to move out of the building and one of the motor coaches. This video should cover this -

(please escuse the audio, we will re-record a new video in the future).

Just to pull up on this, 313001/313201 was de-designated some time ago. 313121 was subsequently designated in its place, although I don't know if that remains the case.

Just because an item has been designated it doesn't mean that it will definitely be preserved, nor will it necessarily be preserved at the NRM. Many designated items come to mind that are held in collections other than the NRM.

The reality though is that not everything can, or should, be saved. It's interesting that many commenters are saying 'this should be preserved' or that 'they should save that', but I can't see anyone actually offering to organise and spearhead such a campaign, nor offer time or money to support others.

If you're not prepared to put your hands in your pockets yourself then you don't really get to dictate that others 'should' preserve something. Circling back to 313201, I understand that the fundraising appeal to preserve the unit privately has been extremely mixed.

Others have highlighted how many preserved EMUs are operable, let alone in good general condition. We have three examples of the PEP-derivatives saved. What does saving any more contribute to the story of Britain's railways?

313121 was taken off of designation. There was a article in trackside (i think) about this. Agreed on the put your hands in your pockets comment.

 

[12LDA28C]

I accept that we all have our own opinions of what should be kept and why, I personally mourn the loss of class 304,305,310 etc but saying something shouldn't be saved because it would be stuffed and mounted is I believe a similar attitude that the NRM and others took when individuals wanted D601 and D6122 saving from Barry, and what would we do to have them with us today.

I merely stated the fact that seeing a unit (or any kind of train, locomotive etc) on static display in a museum doing nothing is a rather second-rate experience to riding on a unit / behind a locomotive either on the main line or in active preservation. If you believe otherwise then fair enough, of course you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

313121 was taken off of designation.

313 121 has, however, been preserved anyway - in Fife, as of last week.