Fare evasion letter for tailgating

[Mombassa 2018]

Hi all - I was hoping to get some advice from you knowledgeable people on here.

Last week I was cutting it fine for my train at Woodmansterne station. I attempted to tap in but the machine didn’t accept. I imagine I needed to insert the card and enter my pin but would have missed the train and so boarded without successfully touching.

At London Bridge, I know there is an option to approach the desk and explain a situation like this but inexplicably and because I was late for a meeting, I tailgated another passenger through the wide barriers and was stopped by a ticket officer. I immediately held my hands up, explained the situation and provided my details. 3 days later I have received a letter from South Eastern trains, asking for some details and any mitigation.

I fully accept that I deserve some sort of punishment but naturally I’m really concerned about the potential for a criminal record. I have a good job which I’ve worked hard for and a young family, it could be catastrophic.

I have a few questions:

1. The letter is from South Eastern but the train I caught was Southern (Govia) is this incorrect?
2. They are asking for my occuparion and NI number - why do they need it at this stage?
3. The letter is dated 15/08 but arrived on 18/08, it states I have 7 days to respond - when does it need to reach them by? Turn around very tight.
4. I did ring a few solicitors on Friday. They all sounded relatively hopeful of reaching an out of court settlement (the aim) but legal costs were coming up as ~£3k. Is this a small price to pay and I should use them or is there no harm in handling the first response myself?

In terms of responding to the letter - how would you advise I approach this?

Thank you very much in advance.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Is that genuine? "You was"?

 

[Adam Williams]

I imagine I needed to insert the card and enter my pin but would have missed the train and so boarded without successfully touching.

I am not an EMV/SCA (Strong Customer Authentication) expert but I don't believe transit transactions like this are subject to the PIN requirement in the same way other purchases might be?

Monzo have this to say:

Similarly, payments won’t decline for most transport systems (like TfL) where the machine you use is unattended.

 

[TheJester]

Is that genuine? "You was"?

Grammatical errors don’t make it invalid.

 

[island]

I am not an EMV/SCA (Strong Customer Authentication) expert but I don't believe transit transactions like this are subject to the PIN requirement in the same way other purchases might be?

Monzo have this to say:

The only time this should happen is with a brand new card that has never been used for a PIN-verified transaction.

Other possible reasons for the card being rejected to touch-in include:

• Read error due to the card being held too far away/for too short a time
• Multiple cards being presented at once
• Card was previously used for travel and payment was later dishonoured, so the card is blocked for use until such time as the cardholder gets onto TfL and sorts it out

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==

1. The letter is from South Eastern but the train I caught was Southern (Govia) is this incorrect?

Southeastern manage ticketing facilities at London Bridge station and are authorised to handle matters on behalf of Thameslink and Southern whose trains also call there.

1. They are asking for my occuparion and NI number - why do they need it at this stage?

This is a standard request to reduce later claims of mistaken identity. You are not obliged to supply this data nor your date of birth.

1. The letter is dated 15/08 but arrived on 18/08, it states I have 7 days to respond - when does it need to reach them by? Turn around very tight.

The 22nd – emails take a few moments to deliver so you should have no concern about this.

1. I did ring a few solicitors on Friday. They all sounded relatively hopeful of reaching an out of court settlement (the aim) but legal costs were coming up as ~£3k. Is this a small price to pay and I should use them or is there no harm in handling the first response myself?

This is an order of magnitude higher than the likely size of an out of court settlement so I would not say you need a solicitor at this juncture.

As to the matter at hand, you’ve committed at least 3 offences (joining a train without a ticket, travelling by train without previously paying your fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof, and passing through a ticket barrier otherwise than in the correct manner). Only the middle one is a recordable offence and liable to show on a DBS check. But it’s unclear which one Southeastern will prosecute.

The most likely outcome is you’ll be asked to make a payment of £100-150 in return for the matter being taken no further and no criminal record. So don’t get too worried yet – but obviously it’s really important to stay out of trouble going forward.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Grammatical errors don’t make it invalid.

Yeah, I know that. I didn't ask if it was valid, just if it was genuine as I can't believe a letter with that formulation was allowed to go out.

 

[Mombassa 2018]

The only time this should happen is with a brand new card that has never been used for a PIN-verified transaction.

Other possible reasons for the card being rejected to touch-in include:

• Read error due to the card being held too far away/for too short a time
• Multiple cards being presented at once
• Card was previously used for travel and payment was later dishonoured, so the card is blocked for use until such time as the cardholder gets onto TfL and sorts it out

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==


Southeastern manage ticketing facilities at London Bridge station and are authorised to handle matters on behalf of Thameslink and Southern whose trains also call there.

This is a standard request to reduce later claims of mistaken identity. You are not obliged to supply this data nor your date of birth.

The 22nd – emails take a few moments to deliver so you should have no concern about this.

This is an order of magnitude higher than the likely size of an out of court settlement so I would not say you need a solicitor at this juncture.

As to the matter at hand, you’ve committed at least 3 offences (joining a train without a ticket, travelling by train without previously paying your fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof, and passing through a ticket barrier otherwise than in the correct manner). Only the middle one is a recordable offence and liable to show on a DBS check. But it’s unclear which one Southeastern will prosecute.

The most likely outcome is you’ll be asked to make a payment of £100-150 in return for the matter being taken no further and no criminal record. So don’t get too worried yet – but obviously it’s really important to stay out of trouble going forward.

Thanks for your comments - very helpful.

The letter states to respond to the address provided as opposed to the email address, should I do both?

Note your comment on DOB & NI number but I don’t wish to be in anyway difficult or obstructive here, so plan to provide these unless you think unnecessary and won’t be held against me?

Finally, anything to particularly stress when responding?

Thank you

 

[Hadders]

It really doesn't matter whether you write or email. Personally I would write to them but maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned in this respect.

In your reply you might want to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Keep the replt short and concise. I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement. Feel free to posta copy of your draft reply in this thread and we'll be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Mombassa 2018]

Thank yo

It really doesn't matter whether you write or email. Personally I would write to them but maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned in this respect.

In your reply you might want to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Keep the replt short and concise. I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement. Feel free to posta copy of your draft reply in this thread and we'll be happy to proof read it for you.

Thank you, I’ll get that written up and post on here in the morning.

 

[James H]

Last week I was cutting it fine for my train at Woodmansterne station. I attempted to tap in but the machine didn’t accept. I imagine I needed to insert the card and enter my pin but would have missed the train and so boarded without successfully touching.

Could you elaborate on that? Machines where you tap in don't have chip and in devices.

Did you try to 'tap in' for pay as you go using the ticket vending machine rather than the standalone contactless reader?

 

[Mombassa 2018]

Could you elaborate on that? Machines where you tap in don't have chip and in devices.

Did you try to 'tap in' for pay as you go using the ticket vending machine rather than the standalone contactless reader?

Yes, so I attempted to touch in at the normal touch pad and for whatever reason the card didn’t work. There is a machine next to the touch point which allows you to select a destination station and physically insert the card, if I’d had more time I would have tried that. The ticket office closed a few weeks ago but I have used that in the past when having trouble purchasing a ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2023 ==

It really doesn't matter whether you write or email. Personally I would write to them but maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned in this respect.

In your reply you might want to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Keep the replt short and concise. I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement. Feel free to posta copy of your draft reply in this thread and we'll be happy to proof read it for you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2023 ==

Hi @Hadders attached is my reply, please let me know if you think I should make any amendments / additions. Thank you again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2023 ==

Yes, so I attempted to touch in at the normal touch pad and for whatever reason the card didn’t work. There is a machine next to the touch point which allows you to select a destination station and physically insert the card, if I’d had more time I would have tried that. The ticket office closed a few weeks ago but I have used that in the past when having trouble purchasing a ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2023 ==



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2023 ==

Hi @Hadders attached is my reply, please let me know if you think I should make any amendments / additions. Thank you again.

Sorry, the file did not correctly attach - I’ve tried again.

 

[Hadders]

I think you've addressed the key points in your letter. Do let us know how you get on.

 

[Mombassa 2018]

I think you've addressed the key points in your letter. Do let us know how you get on.

On the same day I posted my letter (22nd) I received a further follow up from South Eastern, advising that due to it being my first offence and to avoid a court summons they were prepared to settle. Needless to say I was very relieved and have paid the £158.00.

Thanks again for your help, nice to be able to get some advice when you’re in a situation you haven’t been in before.

 

[Hadders]

On the same day I posted my letter (22nd) I received a further follow up from South Eastern, advising that due to it being my first offence and to avoid a court summons they were prepared to settle. Needless to say I was very relieved and have paid the £158.00.

Thanks again for your help, nice to be able to get some advice when you’re in a situation you haven’t been in before.

That's a good outcome, all things considered. Thanks for letting us know.