Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[Bevan Price]

The majority of the rail network should be closed and converted into linear nature reserves specialising in Buddleia and Himalayan Balsam.

Those weeds are already trying to take over the railway without people closing it.

My controversial suggestion is that both DfT and Treasury should be abolished, and that part of national taxation should be used to make rail travel "free" (apart from your contribution via taxation). Just think of all the potential savings - no barriers, no ticket offices or tickets, etc.

 

[yorksrob]

Excellent - an excuse to have some fun!

If nowt else, I've good taste

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Railway enthusiasts should be charged a supplementary fare to travel on loco-hauled trains.

YES - and the shouting ones waving cameras, constantly changing seats, no spacial awareness or concept of what’s an appropriate indoor voice volume restricted to 2 per carriage.

@cactustwirly would probably say many loco-hauled trains would benefit from a complimentary at-seat service of Lynx and Sure, too, and having been on the Yarmouth 37s, I have to agree

 

[james_the_xv]

We should have child/child-free carriages on the intercity trains.

Ah yes, the quiet coach should be enforced by some means. Possibly decibel meters for each seat and some kind of James-Bond-like spike pit or laser based punishment for going over the limit.

Along with these and to quote one of Ollie Reader's blue sky policy ideas from the thick of it: Triple the number of quiet carriages on intercity trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

How is the return from roads calculated?

In the same way as it is for the railways.

ALL trains (except for the London Underground) should have a toilet, including Thameslink, no exceptions.

Thameslink trains have toilets….

Remember that part of the reason electrification reduces emissions is that it's more efficient to burn fossil fuels in a power plant than in a portable generator.

That depends on your definition of efficiency. On a CO2e per passenger km, theres plenty of train services running right now where it would be more efficient to put passengers in a Range Rover.

 

[yorksrob]

….



That depends on your definition of efficiency. On a CO2e per passenger km, theres plenty of train services running right now where it would be more efficient to put passengers in a Range Rover.

Which routes would you fit more people in a range rover ?

Not the Little North Western as I've seen more people than can fit in one. Not the Cumbrian coast, not the Whitby line.

Where are these range rover routes ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Which routes would you fit more people in a range rover ?

Not the Little North Western as I've seen more people than can fit in one. Not the Cumbrian coast, not the Whitby line.

Where are these range rover routes ?

CO2e Per passenger mile.

I should have said Range Rovers.

 

[RooseWithAZed]

TfL should still take over or at least be given overarching control over services that run entirely or all but one stop inside Greater London. It's less about brand new rolling stock and first-to-last staffing and more a correction of attitude towards the role that those services... serve.

There should, without a shadow of irony, be a line that goes straight from where I live to where I work. Greenwich council did once have a ridiculous proposal about putting the DLR on stilts towards Eltham, I can't remember if that would have come from Lewisham (for Greenwich town centre) or Woolwich. On the same self-centred note, Avanti should let their new bi-modes go to Barrow

Networkers are the best trains on the rail network simply because they're the best sounding stock, almost every other EMU produces boring/bland sounds.

Not only do they sound great but they are the best trains that run on Southeastern Metro compared to the 376 and the 707. Both have terrible internal layouts for sitting and standing (and you'll definitely end up standing) and no toilets matters when many of the stations don't have toilets either, or you're not exactly prepared to wait half an hour for another train.

Student railcards should be deleted.

If you mean the 16-25 and the 26-30 I disagree, it should go in the other way and there should be an adult railcard covering people aged 31 to 59.

 

[yorksrob]

CO2e Per passenger mile.

I should have said Range Rovers.

Well, if you'd put all those people in a Range Rover, I suspect you'd lose most to alternative transport.

 

[Facing Back]

That depends on your definition of efficiency. On a CO2e per passenger km, theres plenty of train services running right now where it would be more efficient to put passengers in a Range Rover.

I drive a Range Rover and I received quite a tongue in cheek release from JLR about this a while back. I don't know where you got your stats from, but they had to put a bit of effort into getting a scenario where this was entirely true. It was still interesting and amusing reading.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==

Well, if you'd put all those people in a Range Rover, I suspect you'd lose most to alternative transport.

You can get 4 adults in one but there is no room for a buffet. I believe that most intercity trains can seat more.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Ah yes, the quiet coach should be enforced by some means. Possibly decibel meters for each seat and some kind of James-Bond-like spike pit or laser based punishment for going over the limit.

I'll agree to this - but as a compromise all trains (and especially evening ones) should have a loud coach for those of us with long boring journeys who would rather pass the time with a chat!

 

[yorksrob]

Cathedral? Hardly. It's nothing like the scale of, or as impressive as, say, Leipzig Hbf.

From the pictures I've seen, Leipzig seems like Hull Paragon to me !

 

[Facing Back]

We should put much more investment and focus on the end-to-end journey where the train is the focus for the long haul bit. It doesn't serve every hamlet but a brilliant and connected and on-demand service gets you from your front door to your train and visa versa at the far end.

 

[Trainlog]

For national rail

• Can appreciate that adverts are annoying on TV or Youtube but when it comes to train stations, trains and buses i think that they are good providing they meet the advertising standards as they can tell you what attractions and events are on around the network. If buses struggle to get ads inside their interiors i reckon they should instead print maps of the main bus hubs so that at least people are more aware of the routes in the towns the bus company serves than a dull interior.
• If train companies have a rover ticket they should scrap the waiting period for them and you should be able to buy one as easy as you can for a London travelcard atm.
• On the Southern region, i'd rather that if there are 'diesel islands' like the Marshlink line it would be more logical to get 3rd rail than pantographs just so that those lines are consistent on how they are electrified.
• When Eurostar comes back to stopping in Kent, if they struggle to justify both Ebbsfleet and Ashford intl i reckon they should reopen Ashford intl Eurostar platforms and close Ebbsfleet Eurostar platforms as at least people don't have to go all the way into London to get the Eurostar and Ashford intl has a lot of good links both rail and motorway to the station.

For heritage rail

The Sector isn't as doomed as everyone makes it out to be providing it does the following...

• Better advertising: When going around on the network i have seen a lot of adverts for museums, Castles, zoos and cities on railway stations and on the trains and this is great as it can allow for ideas of places to go and see. However, its a shame that heritage railways especially with mainline connections don't try more physical adverts to encourage people to see the heritage railways. There is more of a potential market for heritage railways than people think - Scotsman during the social media era has done well, influencers such as Geoff Marshall, Timm Dunn, Francis Bourgeois, and Jay Foreman to name a few have made trains more popular compared to the 'sad man' stereotypes as more people take interest in their content - i mean 2025 has many things planned from the launch of the new P2 loco, Great central railway's expansions is finished and the Stockton and Darlington 200 plans. Heritage railways have done ads for their lines years ago so i reckon it would be great to try it again.

• Biocoal trials: The trials have been more successful than many make them out to be and tbf they can offer a lot of promise for heritage lines if it means in the long run there is lower emissions, lower ash, and less loco maintenance. https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/0...on-the-keighley-and-worth-valley-railway.html

When it comes to both of these points i appreciate many might say both ideas are expensive but providing lines are upfront that they want to try and get more ads or trial biocoal for an extended period then i reckon enthusiasts would understand and try and chip in. If more ads means heritage railways see more visitors and more enthusiasts joining then it helps with passing the torch down to a new generation - and the more biocoal is tried and experimented with as a fuel type then it will mean that heritage railways can continue running steam.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't think that's controversial at all. Obtaining the best fares should be as easy as possible.

You'd think so. However I sometimes get the impression on here that there are some who don't mind that some people get fleeced for walk-up fares just so long as they can get a £10 advance. I would prefer it if things met in the middle. I think that 25p/mile would be about right as a cap on the maximum fare that can be charged. If trains are too busy then run more, improving the infrastructure where necessary.

Before anyone asks how I'm going to get this past the Treasury, I'd like to ask if anyone can lend me some thumbscrews?

I'd go the other way. For any sort of restricted ticket to exist, it must be at least 10% CHEAPER (or £5 cheaper, whichever is a greater discount) than the flexible one. Shallow discount tickets add complexity and confusion for little benefit.

I'd take that further and say 25%. That'll sort out the genuinely good deals from the ORCATS fiddling.

This isn't to say electric trains and busses don't have a role, but the business case questions should be "will this save money" , "will this allow more capacity" or "will this improve reliability " not " will this reduce the carbon output of the public transport sector?" Which itself is a pretty small proportion of British carbon output

Electric trains are cheaper, quicker, more reliable and grow passenger numbers. The only blockage is the initial investment needed for the knitting.

Even the swathe from Belgium down to Austria (basically BE, NL, DE, CH and AT)?

Loads of graffiti in Belgium, while if you travel by ICE in Germany you'd better be prepared to see the word "später" a lot.

 

[eldomtom2]

In the same way as it is for the railways.

Which would be?

That depends on your definition of efficiency. On a CO2e per passenger km, theres plenty of train services running right now where it would be more efficient to put passengers in a Range Rover.

Which is why electrification is necessary...
Also, what precisely is meant by services? All services provided on specific lines, or specific individual services?

 

[fwsmVor]

There are lines where a turn-up-and-go free taxi service would cost the taxpayer less than the train, and such lines should implement that system, guaranteed by act of parliament so the TOCs/neo-BR can't pull a "we ran it for a 2-day trial period in mid-November and nobody used it so we're withdrawing it" like they did with the Beeching buses.

 

[Egg Centric]

Safety culture has gone way too far and we'd be much better off accepting more carnage (and investigating it less, to head off the "but now the WCML is closed for a fortnight" type objections) to make things more affordable.

I see on now reading more of this thread others have made a similar point about the safety culture but I differentiate what I'm saying above by specifically saying we should be prepared to accept more danger if it's cheap

2. Many perfectly nice people think fare evasion is not that deep, and there's nothing inherently selfish about this as an individual attitude, it's just a different culture. Historians might call it social crime: something the perpetrator and their community don't regard as criminal or blameworthy, but that is criminalised by the state. To be honest - fair play to people who can get away with it. If the railway was nationalised and reasonably priced, I might get more excited about it, but under current conditions I can't get too mad about people doing something that is so normalised. I have also seen a massive overreaction on here to graffiti on the railway - it's another thing that (as the thread title says, irrationally not logically!) I just don't think is anywhere near as deep as this forum makes it sound. It feels absurd to use the word "criminal" in either context like it's a moral condemnation.

Similarly to this, the posts in the Fares Evasion bit of the forum (I can't remebmer the name and I'm drunk lol) claiming we can't give immigration advice because blah blah blah (some are even pedantic enough to quote the specific law) are firstly a total misinterpretation of the law (yes they're quoting a bit of it but there's other bits that mean it doesn't apply), secondly hysterical in any case when you consider forums like immigrationboards.com exist, and thirdly still not quite as bad as saying "oooh it's not a fine because a fine can only be issued by a court"

 

[trebor79]

You can still push the carbon thing as well. Electric cars still burn fossil fuels in power stations. It'll be ages before the grid is fully decarbonised.

My 70kWh battery will take me 300 miles at motorway speeds. That's equivalent to a petrol or diesel car doing about 150 miles per gallon.
Even if the grid was completely coal fired, it would be less polluting than using ICE. In reality coal is a tiny part of the grid mix. There's a lot of gas generation, but that's about twice the efficiency of coal. My car is mostly charged at home with excess renewable generation.
There's no way a DMU wins in emissions unless I take the view that the train is running regardless and the extra emissions from ne being on board is tiny.
But I definitely feel zero guilt using the car.

 

[chris_in_salop]

Controversial opinion: the current trend to blame everything on DfT micromanagement is a convenient and comforting excuse. The railway lacks strategic leadership, and has done so for decades.

 

[nw1]

Loads of graffiti in Belgium, while if you travel by ICE in Germany you'd better be prepared to see the word "später" a lot.

Not sure the former is of that much consequence, though I do remember seeing "später" a reasonable amount in Germany (but then I see "late" a reasonable amount in the UK!). Often only 4 or 5 mins, though; I never missed any ICE connections during 4 separate visits there from 2009-14.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2023 ==

Moquette designs favoured by modern train companies are dull and boring.

Train companies should switch to Trojan, bournemouth Blue or Donkey Stripe to improve the passenger experience.

I'm actually not sure what the first and last of these are, despite using BR extensively in the 80s.

A guess: Trojan was the original "HAP/EPB" interior and "Donkey Stripe" the refurbished equivalent?

On another topic:

Platform tickets should be brought back, as they provide a way for enthusiasts to access stations without requiring a rail ticket.

Charged at the inflation equivalent of the old 2p cost which was charged in the mid-80s, but without the old time limit.

 

[Magdalia]

All railway staff should be armed to prevent fare evasion...

You'll see them on the heritage lines

These were quoted consecutively at #235 and #236.

It wasn't the image I wanted this early in the morning.

 

[Trainguy34]

Platform tickets should be brought back, as they provide a way for enthusiasts to access stations without requiring a rail ticket.

Charged at the inflation equivalent of the old 2p cost which was charged in the mid-80s, but without the old time limit.

I agree, or 50p with X% going to a charity. I would be willing to pay a bit more if it was going to a good cause. Especially since some desperate souls are going to try and not pay and then get fined.

 

[Falcon1200]

TfL should not run any services outwith Greater London; And when they extend services over existing routes they should construct additional tracks so that current users are not disadvantaged.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure the former is of that much consequence, though I do remember seeing "später" a reasonable amount in Germany (but then I see "late" a reasonable amount in the UK!). Often only 4 or 5 mins, though; I never missed any ICE connections during 4 separate visits there from 2009-14.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2023 ==



I'm actually not sure what the first and last of these are, despite using BR extensively in the 80s.

A guess: Trojan was the original "HAP/EPB" interior and "Donkey Stripe" the refurbished equivalent?

On another topic:

Platform tickets should be brought back, as they provide a way for enthusiasts to access stations without requiring a rail ticket.

Charged at the inflation equivalent of the old 2p cost which was charged in the mid-80s, but without the old time limit.

You'll know them when you see them.

Funnily enough, I don't think trojan was the original EPB interior as it was brought in for the Kent electrification in 1958. Original might have been boomerang or some such ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2023 ==

These were quoted consecutively at #235 and #236.

It wasn't the image I wanted this early in the morning.

Too lateral for my limited brain I'm afraid !

 

[jfowkes]

I'll agree to this - but as a compromise all trains (and especially evening ones) should have a loud coach for those of us with long boring journeys who would rather pass the time with a chat!

My quiet coach would allow for quiet chats, just not things like music played on speakers, screaming children or drunken yelling.
It's basically a library.

 

[al78]

In the same way as it is for the railways.



Thameslink trains have toilets….




That depends on your definition of efficiency. On a CO2e per passenger km, theres plenty of train services running right now where it would be more efficient to put passengers in a Range Rover.

Presumably a hybrid Range Rover if it is an electrified line, given 42.3% of the UK's electricity was generated by renewables in 2022.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm actually not sure what the first and last of these are, despite using BR extensively in the 80s.

A guess: Trojan was the original "HAP/EPB" interior and "Donkey Stripe" the refurbished equivalent?

Moquette Fabric by the Metre

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Platform tickets should be brought back, as they provide a way for enthusiasts to access stations without requiring a rail ticket.

They still exist. One booking office I know of occasionally gets SAEs with 10p enclosed requesting platform tickets for collectors

 

[PGAT]

My 70kWh battery will take me 300 miles at motorway speeds. That's equivalent to a petrol or diesel car doing about 150 miles per gallon.
Even if the grid was completely coal fired, it would be less polluting than using ICE. In reality coal is a tiny part of the grid mix. There's a lot of gas generation, but that's about twice the efficiency of coal. My car is mostly charged at home with excess renewable generation.
There's no way a DMU wins in emissions unless I take the view that the train is running regardless and the extra emissions from ne being on board is tiny.
But I definitely feel zero guilt using the car.

This 100% proves my point I made earlier!

 

[robert thomas]

Not sure the former is of that much consequence, though I do remember seeing "später" a reasonable amount in Germany (but then I see "late" a reasonable amount in the UK!). Often only 4 or 5 mins, though; I never missed any ICE connections during 4 separate visits there from 2009-14.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2023 ==



I'm actually not sure what the first and last of these are, despite using BR extensively in the 80s.

A guess: Trojan was the original "HAP/EPB" interior and "Donkey Stripe" the refurbished equivalent?

On another topic:

Platform tickets should be brought back, as they provide a way for enthusiasts to access stations without requiring a rail ticket.

Charged at the inflation equivalent of the old 2p cost which was charged in the mid-80s, but without the old time limit.

Platform tickets are still issued from the booking office. The one at Neath costs 10p