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Cross London via Thameslink season ticket

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21C101

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I am trying to help someone who needs a season ticket from St Albans to London Waterloo East.

The journey is via Thameslink to London Bridge then Southeastern to Waterloo East.

However while London Bridge and Blackfriars are covered by "London Thameslink", Waterloo East isn't and the only thing it offers is via Z1-6 Travelcard which is more than £1000 extra.

Is there a non tube/bus option if you ask at a station?

Oddly there is an option for a season ticket from St Albans to Queenstown Road (Battersea) for virtually the same price as London Thameslink (via passing through or changing at West Hampstead [nb no Thameslink suffice]

does that mean it would only be valid via the overground to Clapham Junction and up to Queenstown Road from there, not via London Bridge and Waterloo?
 
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Haywain

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It's a 10 to 15 minute walk from Blackfriars (south end) to Waterloo/Waterloo East.
 

Magdalia

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I am trying to help someone who needs a season ticket from St Albans to London Waterloo East.
Knowing the Waterloo area quite well, I'm struggling to think of a question where this is a sensible answer!

In the absence of further information, I'd agree that walking from Blackfriars South Bank exit is the sensible answer, unless your someone can't do a 10-15 minute walk.

Plan B if it is tipping down with rain is to get off at City Thameslink and get a bus over Waterloo Bridge.
 

Hadders

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I often walk between Blackfriars and Waterloo. It’s extremely easy if you use the southern entrance/exit at Blackfriars.

And you get to walk along Roupell Street :D
 

21C101

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Yes, walking sounds the obvious. Someone has already pointed out the rain and the other issue is that they will be working nightshifts and its not the nicest/safest area to walk through at night.
 

Haywain

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they will be working nightshifts and its not the nicest/safest area to walk through at night.
I can't say that it feels particularly unsafe compared to town centre areas anywhere else. There are options for walking along fairly busy roads (Stamford Street or The Cut) or quieter back roads (Roupell Street) or along the South Bank.
 
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Hadders

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Oddly there is an option for a season ticket from St Albans to Queenstown Road (Battersea) for virtually the same price as London Thameslink (via passing through or changing at West Hampstead [nb no Thameslink suffice]
You’d have to use the Overground to Clapham Junction, it wouldn’t be valid via London Bridge or Waterloo.

Yes, walking sounds the obvious. Someone has already pointed out the rain and the other issue is that they will be working nightshifts and it’s not the nicest/safest area to walk through at night.
It’ll be faster to walk from Blackfriars than stay on the train to London Bridge and change for a train to Waterloo East.

In my experience the area isn’t bad at all. I’d much rather walk round there than along (for example) Oxford Street.

Also, where is the exact destination as that could change the walk options from Blackfriars.
 

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It's a long walk. I may do it for a one off but definitely won't want to do it for a commute.

Have you considered splitting your tickets at Hendon by buying St Albans - Hendon and Hendon - Zones 1-3? This is cheaper than two point to point seasons splitting at London Bridge, cheaper than one Travelcard season and gives a flexibility to go elsewhere in inner London by taking buses and tubes, i.e. you can change at West Hampstead for the Jubilee line for a faster journey to Waterloo.
 

21C101

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You’d have to use the Overground to Clapham Junction, it wouldn’t be valid via London Bridge or Waterloo.


It’ll be faster to walk from Blackfriars than stay on the train to London Bridge and change for a train to Waterloo East.

In my experience the area isn’t bad at all. I’d much rather walk round there than along (for example) Oxford Street.

Also, where is the exact destination as that could change the walk options from Blackfriars.
Thanks. For exact location Old Vic is near enough.

Looks like there is not a non travelcard ticket option then to go to Waterloo East then.

There have been a few nasty incidents in the Lower Marsh area of late, so it would have been nice as a safest, if not fastest (as well as dryest) option.

"Adrian Keise, 32, from Lambeth, died after a stabbing near the Cubana [in Lower Marsh] close to Waterloo Station"

 
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Haywain

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Thanks. For exact location Old Vic is near enough.
From Blackfriars they can just walk down Blackfriars Road and along The Cut to get there. If anything it will be safer than walking from Waterloo East.
 

pelli

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they will be working nightshifts
What exactly will their working pattern be? Nights only or a mixture? Weekdays only or a mixture? What times will they be going to/from work in each case? Are they eligible for any railcard apart from the Network Railcard?

Some points to consider:

* From West Hampstead Thameslink, it's a 3-min walk to West Hampstead Underground, then 15min on the Jubilee Line to Waterloo. This is likely faster (but perhaps less comfortable) than staying on the train to Blackfriars (19min) and walking (15min), or to London Bridge (25min) and changing (5min), even in comparison with trains that are non-stop between St Albans City and St Pancras (which save 1min by skipping West Hampstead). Depending on ticketing it might be more expensive though.

* Although Thameslink trains typically run through the night at Blackfriars, there is a period (roughly 00:30-05:30) when there are no trains at Waterloo East (and no tube, except on weekends).

* An Annual Season Ticket also gives you the Gold Card discount on your Oyster card, i.e. 1/3 discount on off-peak Pay-As-You-Go fares. Thus, paying separately for train or tube from London Bridge will be £2.80 peak (tapping in between 06:30-09:30 or 16:00-19:00) and £1.75 off-peak, and from West Hampstead £3.40 peak and £1.80 off-peak. (The bus price remains at £1.75.) Depending on how often you want to avoid walking from Blackfriars, this could work out cheaper than the £1072 extra for a Travelcard.

* If you can consistently avoid the morning peak (weekdays 04:30 to around 09:30 depending on ticket, or before 10:00 if using Network Railcard), then Railcard-discounted Off-Peak Day Returns might be cheaper than a Season Ticket (which at £4184 or £5256 for the Travelcard makes £16.10/day or £20.22/day if you use it every single weekday for the whole year). However, you'd need to return the same day (i.e. before 04:30 the next morning), or alternatively chain together consecutive night shifts using reverse direction returns (travel home in the late morning on an outward portion, travel to work the same evening on the return portion) but paying a bit more for a period return to get you to work the first evening and back from work the last morning. Further, on weekdays a minimum fare of £13.00 applies with the Network Railcard (meaning you pay £13.00 if the discounted price is lower), or £12.00 if travelling before 10:00 with the 26-30 Railcard. You can avoid the minimum fare by getting the cheapest possible Gold Card Annual Season instead (possibly Hatton to Lapworth at £196.00) and using it solely as a discount card, valid from 09:30 on weekdays.

With the discount, an Off-Peak Day Return from St Albans City to London Thameslink (e.g. Blackfriars or London Bridge) costs £12.00 (not valid morning peak), and a Super Off-Peak Day Return costs £10.00 (not valid morning peak or returning evening peak) or £6.95 (weekends only).

If not walking from Blackfriars, then the Off-Peak Day Return from St Albans City to London Underground Zone 1-2 for £13.45 (not valid morning peak or returning evening peak) allows going to Waterloo East or using the Jubilee Line from West Hampstead or London Bridge, so is cheaper than using PAYG separately. I suspect you can undercut this fare with an Off-Peak Day Return from St Albans City to Queenstown Road (Battersea) route ✠Any Permitted for £12.10 and stopping short at Waterloo, but curiously I can only get Trainsplit to validate taking the train from London Bridge to Waterloo East or the tube from Blackfriars to Waterloo - not tube from London Bridge or West Hampstead to Waterloo, but I see no reason why these routes would not be valid.
 

21C101

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What exactly will their working pattern be? Nights only or a mixture? Weekdays only or a mixture? What times will they be going to/from work in each case? Are they eligible for any railcard apart from the Network Railcard?

Some points to consider:

* From West Hampstead Thameslink, it's a 3-min walk to West Hampstead Underground, then 15min on the Jubilee Line to Waterloo. This is likely faster (but perhaps less comfortable) than staying on the train to Blackfriars (19min) and walking (15min), or to London Bridge (25min) and changing (5min), even in comparison with trains that are non-stop between St Albans City and St Pancras (which save 1min by skipping West Hampstead). Depending on ticketing it might be more expensive though.

* Although Thameslink trains typically run through the night at Blackfriars, there is a period (roughly 00:30-05:30) when there are no trains at Waterloo East (and no tube, except on weekends).

* An Annual Season Ticket also gives you the Gold Card discount on your Oyster card, i.e. 1/3 discount on off-peak Pay-As-You-Go fares. Thus, paying separately for train or tube from London Bridge will be £2.80 peak (tapping in between 06:30-09:30 or 16:00-19:00) and £1.75 off-peak, and from West Hampstead £3.40 peak and £1.80 off-peak. (The bus price remains at £1.75.) Depending on how often you want to avoid walking from Blackfriars, this could work out cheaper than the £1072 extra for a Travelcard.

* If you can consistently avoid the morning peak (weekdays 04:30 to around 09:30 depending on ticket, or before 10:00 if using Network Railcard), then Railcard-discounted Off-Peak Day Returns might be cheaper than a Season Ticket (which at £4184 or £5256 for the Travelcard makes £16.10/day or £20.22/day if you use it every single weekday for the whole year). However, you'd need to return the same day (i.e. before 04:30 the next morning), or alternatively chain together consecutive night shifts using reverse direction returns (travel home in the late morning on an outward portion, travel to work the same evening on the return portion) but paying a bit more for a period return to get you to work the first evening and back from work the last morning. Further, on weekdays a minimum fare of £13.00 applies with the Network Railcard (meaning you pay £13.00 if the discounted price is lower), or £12.00 if travelling before 10:00 with the 26-30 Railcard. You can avoid the minimum fare by getting the cheapest possible Gold Card Annual Season instead (possibly Hatton to Lapworth at £196.00) and using it solely as a discount card, valid from 09:30 on weekdays.

With the discount, an Off-Peak Day Return from St Albans City to London Thameslink (e.g. Blackfriars or London Bridge) costs £12.00 (not valid morning peak), and a Super Off-Peak Day Return costs £10.00 (not valid morning peak or returning evening peak) or £6.95 (weekends only).

If not walking from Blackfriars, then the Off-Peak Day Return from St Albans City to London Underground Zone 1-2 for £13.45 (not valid morning peak or returning evening peak) allows going to Waterloo East or using the Jubilee Line from West Hampstead or London Bridge, so is cheaper than using PAYG separately. I suspect you can undercut this fare with an Off-Peak Day Return from St Albans City to Queenstown Road (Battersea) route ✠Any Permitted for £12.10 and stopping short at Waterloo, but curiously I can only get Trainsplit to validate taking the train from London Bridge to Waterloo East or the tube from Blackfriars to Waterloo - not tube from London Bridge or West Hampstead to Waterloo, but I see no reason why these routes would not be valid.
I wasn't expecting the spanish inquistion. I'm not going to provide information that could identify their precise movements or employer.

Jubilee line from West Hampstead to Waterloo is £1,500 a year more than London Thameslink and no use anyway as unlike Thameslink it dosent run all night.

Unfortunately Offpeak dosen't work for going home in the morning as last offpeak train is 03.36 off Blackfriars.

Alas Hadders has confirmed that a St A to Queenstown Road ticket is no good as only valid round the north London Line to Clapham Jct.
 
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Unfortunately Offpeak dosen't work for going home in the morning as last offpeak train is 03.36 off Blackfriars.
The last off-peak is tapping in before 0630 on CPC.

Jubilee line from West Hampstead to Waterloo is £1,500 a year more than London Thameslink and no use anyway as unlike Thameslink it dosent run all night.
Then walk.
 

30907

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I wasn't expecting the spanish inquistion. I'm not going to provide information that could identify their precise movements or employer.
Fair enough
Jubilee line from West Hampstead to Waterloo is £1,500 a year more than London Thameslink and no use anyway as unlike Thameslink it dosent run all night.

Unfortunately Offpeak dosen't work for going home in the morning as last offpeak train is 03.36 off Blackfriars.
In which case a London TL season plus strategic use of night buses?

Back in the day, when Blackfriars was North of the river, I used to walk (mostly in daylight) via the Embankment and Hungerford Bridge - probably slightly further but very open and it never occurred to me that it wasn't safe. Perhaps I was naive? :)
 

21C101

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Fair enough

In which case a London TL season plus strategic use of night buses?

Back in the day, when Blackfriars was North of the river, I used to walk (mostly in daylight) via the Embankment and Hungerford Bridge - probably slightly further but very open and it never occurred to me that it wasn't safe. Perhaps I was naive? :)
Sadly things are a lot more stabby than they used to be in London.
 

MikeWh

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Have you ever actually walked through that part of London at night? Perfectly safe.
I'm a little concerned about your attitude here to someone who clearly has concerns. Would you be prepared to repeat the above while standing face to face with the parents of Adrian Keise?
"Adrian Keise, 32, from Lambeth, died after a stabbing near the Cubana [in Lower Marsh] close to Waterloo Station"

Going back to the original query, St Albans City to London Thameslink is £4184 which works out at £18.20 per day if you travel 230* days a year.
The contactless PAYG fares from St Albans City to Waterloo East** are £12.30 peak or £9.10 off-peak. If both journeys are off-peak it's the same price as the daily rate of the season to London Bridge. From St Albans City the peak time is just touch in between 06:30-09:30. From London it's both 06:30-09:30 and 16:00 to 19:00. I don't need to know how these times fit into the shift pattern, but you should be able to work out how many journeys might be peak versus off-peak. The key time is touch in time. If you touch in at 06:25 the fare is off-peak even if the journey ends at 08:00.

* The NR season ticket calculator assumes 260 days which includes all bank holidays and annual leave entitlement, 230 seems more likely.
** PAYG allows the exact journey you are proposing at the same price as to London Bridge, ie it acknowledges that you don't use the Underground.
 
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I'm a little concerned about your attitude here to someone who clearly has concerns
They would be going via Blackfriars Road and The Cut. These streets are well lit and safe. They are not Lower Marsh. Everything in this world is a compromise, especially if it is a matter of £1500. My recommendation would be for the OP to visit the roads at night with their friend (two people for added safety) and personally judge whether the route to Blackfriars at night is safe or not to their own boundaries.
 

Magdalia

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the other issue is that they will be working nightshifts and its not the nicest/safest area to walk through at night.
That's a fair point, I would be considering that. But it applies for the London end whichever destination station is chosen.

My plan B for using the bus from City Thameslink does not work at night though.

Have you ever actually walked through that part of London at night? Perfectly safe.
Not quite. It is very safe most of the time, but very infrequently someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thanks. For exact location Old Vic is near enough.
Thanks, it is precise enough for me to understand the issues.

From Blackfriars they can just walk down Blackfriars Road and along The Cut to get there. If anything it will be safer than walking from Waterloo East.

They would be going via Blackfriars Road and The Cut. These streets are well lit and safe. They are not Lower Marsh. Everything in this world is a compromise, especially if it is a matter of £1500. My recommendation would be for the OP to visit the roads at night with their friend (two people for added safety) and personally judge whether the route to Blackfriars at night is safe or not to their own boundaries.

I'd agree with these, especially the suggestion to go and have a look.


I wasn't expecting the spanish inquistion.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
 

Mcr Warrior

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@21C101. For their peace of mind, it may be for the best for your friend not to "cheap out" and instead to consider purchasing the higher priced, but significantly more flexible, all zones travelcard season from St. Albans.
 

Haywain

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Sadly things are a lot more stabby than they used to be in London.
That applies across pretty much the whole country. I think that with the advice you have received here it would be a good idea for your friend (and you?) to go and have a good look at the area and get a feel for it - not just in daytime but in the evening as well. Only then can the real value of the options be assessed.
I wasn't expecting the spanish inquistion. I'm not going to provide information that could identify their precise movements or employer.
That's fair enough but it is important to have a good idea of the location in order to provide appropriate advice and suggestions.
 

miklcct

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* The NR season ticket calculator assumes 260 days which includes all bank holidays and annual leave entitlement, 230 seems more likely.
For Delay Repay purpose, the factor of 1/464 (assuming a return for 232 days per year) is used.

A year has 52 weeks, minus 5.6 weeks for statutory leaves (including bank holidays) gives 46.4 weeks, i.e. 232 days for 5-day working.
 

dastocks

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That applies across pretty much the whole country. I think that with the advice you have received here it would be a good idea for your friend (and you?) to go and have a good look at the area and get a feel for it - not just in daytime but in the evening as well. Only then can the real value of the options be assessed.

Quite: The risks being considered here are journeys from Waterloo vs Blackfriars to and from some other location. Without an idea of that location - even if it's just the relative distances from Waterloo and Blackfriars - it's rather difficult to give advice. You then have to consider the risks associated with getting to/from St Albans station and the train journey itself because bad things can happen on trains.

All I would add is that I am familiar with the area myself and, even if the employer is within Waterloo station itself, I wouldn't have an issue with walking between there and Blackfriars as part of the commute.
 

21C101

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I'm a little concerned about your attitude here to someone who clearly has concerns. Would you be prepared to repeat the above while standing face to face with the parents of Adrian Keise?


Going back to the original query, St Albans City to London Thameslink is £4184 which works out at £18.20 per day if you travel 230* days a year.
The contactless PAYG fares from St Albans City to Waterloo East** are £12.30 peak or £9.10 off-peak. If both journeys are off-peak it's the same price as the daily rate of the season to London Bridge. From St Albans City the peak time is just touch in between 06:30-09:30. From London it's both 06:30-09:30 and 16:00 to 19:00. I don't need to know how these times fit into the shift pattern, but you should be able to work out how many journeys might be peak versus off-peak. The key time is touch in time. If you touch in at 06:25 the fare is off-peak even if the journey ends at 08:00.

* The NR season ticket calculator assumes 260 days which includes all bank holidays and annual leave entitlement, 230 seems more likely.
** PAYG allows the exact journey you are proposing at the same price as to London Bridge, ie it acknowledges that you don't use the Underground.
Thank you MikeWh. I sadly find this the rudest forum I have come across in terms of some members behaviours. I commend the likes of you moderating it as it must be like herding cats.

In the end I asked about a fare. For all the posters know here the person I am talking about has one leg.

I worked at Waterloo for years so know the area and its pitfals, and the journey options. I was lucky enough to have a residential pass though.

I will have to find out what tbe last departure time for offpeak paper tickets is. National Rail and Trainline suggest 4AM.
 

jon0844

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Sadly things are a lot more stabby than they used to be in London.

Most stabbings are involving people who know each other, or gang related. Random stabbings are very rare. Muggings are also rare now most people carry no cash, and mobiles and smartwatches are easily blocked.

Obviously there's always a risk, but not even St Albans is 100% safe these days.
 

Hadders

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I sadly find this the rudest forum I have come across in terms of some members behaviours. I commend the likes of you moderating it as it must be like herding cats.
Just a reminder to everyone that if a post is causing particular concern then please report it to the Moderating Team by using the ‘Report’ button in the bottom left hand corner of each post.

On a more general note it’s important that we remain on topic. The suggestion of Blackfriars instead of Waterloo East is a legitimate option given the proximity of the two stations but discussion about the relative safety, or otherwise, of a particular area is best done in a separate thread.
 

MikeWh

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For Delay Repay purpose, the factor of 1/464 (assuming a return for 232 days per year) is used.

A year has 52 weeks, minus 5.6 weeks for statutory leaves (including bank holidays) gives 46.4 weeks, i.e. 232 days for 5-day working.
Thanks for that. I wasn't too far out.
 
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