Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[PGAT]

Lumo is the best service on the railway today because it pulls people from other modes primarily by being cheap (at yet it still presumably makes money). It should be emulated in other places (other intercity routes mostly such as London to Manchester and London to Glasgow).

Not sure if this is controversial, Lumo is widely regarded as a big success

 

[Mcr Warrior]

TOC restricted tickets, that are priced at maybe 10p off the equivalent "any operator" fare, are a good thing as they save you money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Open Access operations should be banned. They use up track capacity with short units, are primarily abstractive regardless of what they claim, and invariably offer poor service due to the need to cut costs to be viable. The competitor is the car.

Tendering invariably leads to a poor quality product because typically tenders aren't well enough written to avoid suppliers producing cheap junk.

 

[renegademaster]

377s are one of the nicest regional commuter trains you can take.
Better than most of the Southern electric stock people get nostalgic about, even if they look a bit boring on the outside

 

[nw1]

My controversial opinion is that in terms of comfort, the EPB has never been bettered for a suburban commuter train.

Also, VEP's could be perfectly pleasant to travel on (if not overcrowded).

I actually only ever travelled on an EPB once - 21/10/83, a substitution on the 1832 Waterloo-Fratton for the usual CIG/VEP combo. Units 5123 and 5124, to be precise (I still remember this!) and I think both were still in BR blue. I saw them much more often than I used them. Enjoyable to observe, though.

Agree about VEPs, I never had a problem with them (and I used them a lot between 1982 and 2004) and I always used to like the variety that having a mix of CIGs and VEPs on a given route produced - the Portsmouth Direct '82's being perhaps the classic example.

My dad however hated them; they were seemingly third only to Neil Kinnock and 80s pop stars (Madonna, George Michael, FGTH to name a few) in his list of pet hates of the 80s.

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Open Access operations should be banned. They use up track capacity with short units, are primarily abstractive regardless of what they claim, and invariably offer poor service due to the need to cut costs to be viable. The competitor is the car.

Tendering invariably leads to a poor quality product because typically tenders aren't well enough written to avoid suppliers producing cheap junk.

I am somewhat sympathetic to this in the sense that they consume paths which could be better used by services for which there is a greater need. I also tend to think that a more integrated service can be produced if you reduce the number of operators.

On that subject, I'll venture another. If privatisation had to be done, it would have been far better done as a single "BR plc", no Railtrack, and certainly no leasing companies.

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377s are one of the nicest regional commuter trains you can take.

I do agree with this, I'd rate 377s and 444s highly on the current railway. The latter I suspect is non-controversial, AFAIK 444s are one of the most popular units about today.

Better than most of the Southern electric stock people get nostalgic about, even if they look a bit boring on the outside

On the other hand I used to enjoy the CIGs and VEPs of my youth (see above...)

 

[Kite159]

Open Access operations should be banned. They use up track capacity with short units, are primarily abstractive regardless of what they claim, and invariably offer poor service due to the need to cut costs to be viable. The competitor is the car.

Tendering invariably leads to a poor quality product because typically tenders aren't well enough written to avoid suppliers producing cheap junk.

LNER would love for the Open Access operators to disappear so they no longer have any competition with fares

 

[TravellingPhil]

Complementry food and drink should be got rid of in 1st class to allow a reduction in 1st class fares and a return of a cafe/bistro/resturant car for all, but keep an at seat service for 1st class passengers...much like how they do it in some of mainland Europe.

I shall now log off and prepare myself for the backlash for when I next log on!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

On any train scheduled to depart after 9pm on Friday or Satruday it should be compulsory for all adult passengers to consume alcohol. These would be widely advertised as "wet trains".

 

[D6130]

On any train scheduled to depart after 9pm on Friday or Satruday it should be compulsory for all adult passengers to consume alcohol. These would be widely advertised as "wet trains".

Sounds good to me!

 

[Pdf]

I think I may have been on a few of these "wet trains" already.

 

[nw1]

They didn't have any second class compartments when I travelled on them regularly....although the CIGs an BIGs had one in each unit. I used to enjoy ambles through the Kent countryside at weekends on 2-HAP units....provided that you could travel in the coach with the toilet - especially if the journey involved beer or cider!

My school commuting in the first year, during the week, allowed me to sample all the unit classes then in use on the Portsmouth Direct. Usually it was a CIG, BIG or BEP. On games day however it would be the back compartment of a VEP, and when we had swimming (again one day per week) it'd be a HAP. I used to enjoy the novelty of travelling in the HAP which was of course a very different ambience to the other units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Complementry food and drink should be got rid of in 1st class to allow a reduction in 1st class fares and a return of a cafe/bistro/resturant car for all, but keep an at seat service for 1st class passengers...much like how they do it in some of mainland Europe.

I shall now log off and prepare myself for the backlash for when I next log on!

I totally agree with this. Standard Premium is what 1st should be, give or take maybe tea/coffee/water. Other stuff shoudl be chargeable.

High 1st fares don't work for leisure travel, the whole "get a meal without incurring VAT or tax on a day trip" thing doesn't work as well for leisure, I'd rather a lower fare and a bag of M&S stuff.

Of course people on here love a £10 Seatfrog upgrade and all they can eat/drink, but that's not how to run an economically sound railway.

 

[Horizon22]

Mine is fare prices are too low in certain circumstances, particularly weekends. If train are packed out (and this is not due to cancellations) and have been post-Covid despite reliability issues, then more money can be extracted, without necessarily increasingly supply (seating).

 

[AlterEgo]

Complementry food and drink should be got rid of in 1st class to allow a reduction in 1st class fares and a return of a cafe/bistro/resturant car for all, but keep an at seat service for 1st class passengers...much like how they do it in some of mainland Europe.

100% agree.

 

[nw1]

I think I may have been on a few of these "wet trains" already.

On a related controversial point - the decision to delete popular stops because there are too many "wet" passengers on Fri/Sat nights (Wokingham being one example from some time ago) is damned stupid because it inconveniences all passengers going to that stop.. not just those misbehaving!

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Mine is fare prices are too low in certain circumstances, particularly weekends. If train are packed out (and this is not due to cancellations) and have been post-Covid despite reliability issues, then more money can be extracted, without necessarily increasingly supply (seating).

Ooh, very, very controversial. Probably the most controversial opinion so far on this thread, in fact.

I'll offer something equally controversial but very different... having stock parked up in sidings during quiet times of the day/week/year, ready to be deployed at peak times (commuter peak, Friday evenings, Saturday daytimes, summer) is the right way to run a railway.

 

[robert thomas]

TOC restricted tickets, that are priced at maybe 10p off the equivalent "any operator" fare, are a good thing as they save you money.

They are a dreadful thing as they do not give any flexibillity

 

[Master29]

Giving GWR 5 car IET's an extra carriage even though they may be longer than the length of any station with 12 car trains. Why? Capacity and hopefully they can remove the extra coach at leaner times of the year.

 

[GWVillager]

Amazed no-one’s said this already… HS2 is the best rail project proposed this century.

 

[Horizon22]

On a related controversial point - the decision to delete popular stops because there are too many "wet" passengers on Fri/Sat nights (Wokingham being one example from some time ago) is damned stupid because it inconveniences all passengers going to that stop.. not just those misbehaving!

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Ooh, very, very controversial. Probably the most controversial opinion so far on this thread, in fact.

The thread asked for controversy! I don’t always think this opinion but certainly when people talk about how packed their train is and how expensive it was on a route I know had no disruption with a Saturday service similar to pre-Covid I often think too many cheap advances are sold.

 

[PGAT]

Amazed no-one’s said this already… HS2 is the best rail project proposed this century.

Sheesh no need to start a war...

 

[Topological]

Tea (selection of different flavours) and Coffee (including decaff) should be available to all passengers via an at seat service. (Sort of like the original Midland Mainline but without the buffet)

Possibly the controversial part is the no buffet, but that is the point of the thread

My other one is that diagramming should be done by computers, including responses to disruption, so common sense exclusion of unit numbers from certain routes can be included in the optimisation algorithm (see TfW not using either of their 2 hired Northern 3+2 150s on the Marches)

 

[yorksrob]

I have to agree with you there....noisy, draughty, rattly things - although fast, efficient, reliable and good for rapid loading and unloading in the peaks. When I commuted on the Portsmouth Direct Line in the 1970s, my morning train up to London was diagrammed for 12 VEP but - on the rare occasions when a CIG was substituted, it was a much more pleasant and relaxing journey....although not for those passengers boarding further up the line who had to stand as a result. By contrast, my homeward journey in the evening was usually on a 12CIG/BIG/CIG....tea and hot buttered toast in the buffet car. Mmmm....

They didn't have any second class compartments when I travelled on them regularly....although the CIGs an BIGs had one in each unit. I used to enjoy ambles through the Kent countryside at weekends on 2-HAP units....provided that you could travel in the coach with the toilet - especially if the journey involved beer or cider!

We even had an extra two (down graded first class so quite plush) for a while in the 90's !

The HAP's were quite rare in deepest Kent in my day, but would have liked them to have appeared more !

 

[GWVillager]

Sheesh no need to start a war...

That one might have been a bit too provocative...

Here's a less high stakes one: the Avanti Voyager refurbishment was a downgrade.

 

[fwsmVor]

What railway people call "revenue abstraction" is in the real world called "competition" and it's a good thing.

 

[jadmor]

I wouldn’t have closed the line from Leuchars to St.Andrews in 1969,but I would not re- open it today.

 

[6Gman]

OK, here's another one. "Integrated rail and bus arrangements don't work".

Typically the bulk of the bus passengers are local, not going on the train, who have different timing needs and want to go to different places near the railhead, especially given the number of those sited nowhere near the centre of commerce in the town they are ostensibly named after. Not for nothing did bus companies build bus stations nowhere near train stations.

I agree.

Note also the transport enthusiasts constantly lobbying for bus stations to be located next to bus stations even where 90% plus of bus passengers want to get to town centres rather than the railway station.

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My other one is that diagramming should be done by computers, including responses to disruption, so common sense exclusion of unit numbers from certain routes can be included in the optimisation algorithm (see TfW not using either of their 2 hired Northern 3+2 150s on the Marches)

That worked well for Northern I seem to recall . . .

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic.)

And are you confusing diagramming with unit allocation on the day?

 

[yorksrob]

My school commuting in the first year, during the week, allowed me to sample all the unit classes then in use on the Portsmouth Direct. Usually it was a CIG, BIG or BEP. On games day however it would be the back compartment of a VEP, and when we had swimming (again one day per week) it'd be a HAP. I used to enjoy the novelty of travelling in the HAP which was of course a very different ambience to the other units.

I wish I'd managed to get over to the West a bit more in slam door days.

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Complementry food and drink should be got rid of in 1st class to allow a reduction in 1st class fares and a return of a cafe/bistro/resturant car for all, but keep an at seat service for 1st class passengers...much like how they do it in some of mainland Europe.

I shall now log off and prepare myself for the backlash for when I next log on!

I preferred this system. Worked well on EMT.

 

[Ken H]

I agree.

Note also the transport enthusiasts constantly lobbying for bus stations to be located next to bus stations even where 90% plus of bus passengers want to get to town centres rather than the railway station.

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That worked well for Northern I seem to recall . . .

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic.)

And are you confusing diagramming with unit allocation on the day?

There again Leeds bus station is where hardly anyone wants to go. They want to be in Briggate. And its a fair drag from the train station.
Some out of town services shun the bus station. Its easy to see why
(Transdev X98/99 to Wetherby and Arriva 444/446 to Wakefield via Rothwell)

 

[Topological]

I agree.

Note also the transport enthusiasts constantly lobbying for bus stations to be located next to bus stations even where 90% plus of bus passengers want to get to town centres rather than the railway station.

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That worked well for Northern I seem to recall . . .

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic.)

And are you confusing diagramming with unit allocation on the day?

As a layman possibly, one being easier than the other. However, both are decision problems over which optimisation can be made and computers are faster than people.

Again an incredibly controversial statement

IF the suggestion is that Northern had problems with their computer algorithm then the suggestion would be that it had not been taught all the things the humans know. There have been major advances in learning since then. Ultimately, if there is a rule that helps a human decide then it can be coded. My feeling is that the Northern "random unit generator" was perhaps still allowed to be too random.

 

[riceuten]

There are far too few consequences for failure on the railway. TOCs that don't run contracted services should be fined to a degree where it actually makes sense to

a) run the service
b) train sufficient drivers not to have to rely on rest day working
c) pay drivers the going rate for the job

If TOCs can just shrug their shoulders and say, year after year "sorry, insufficient staff", then they will continue to phone it in.

And if they don't see this as a cash cow, then they can always hand the keys back - where is this mythical "private sector efficiency" we hear so frequently of? The public sector pays for the infrastructure, the private sector extracts money from it.