Tavistock Re-opening: how should the line be served and could the line be extended beyond Tavistock?

[uglymonkey]

The problem, in part to reopen is not simply "to extend" a branch line,but to extend what was a mainline ( now a branch) a little bit.Whilst continuing to run a branch line,( still a branch) dovetailed into it. Here Bere Alston was designed as a main line station, a junction ,with a branch joining. Like many others , Sidmouth Junction, Seaton Junction etc.

When it shut as a mainline they "bodged" the connection to the remaining line so to keep Gunnislake open. The reversal and all the wheel squeal as well. I think Gunnislake was built as a light railway?

This bodge then makes it more difficult to reopen to Tavistock as almost "too difficult" , not because of the track bed and tunnel, but because of the track work at Bere Alston.

 

[yorksrob]

Ideally, the line would be done to half hourly, alternating between Tavistock and Gunnislake.

 

[uglymonkey]

I did wonder about that about a new commuter from Tavistock to Plymouth, would feel each morning for a quick diversion to Gunnislake on the way to work and back! Not exactly the recipe to encourage commuting!

 

[daodao]

The proposed Tavistock re-opening has a number of complicating/negative features which make it potentially less attractive in terms of value for money:

• There is no railway line in situ north of Bere Alston, merely a disused unmaintained trackbed.
• Any proposed service is complicated by the need to retain the existing service to Gunnislake, at least 2 hourly, because of poor road connectivity across the River Tamar. The trackwork/signalling arrangements at Bere Alston may therefore need to be enhanced. The only way to avoid this would be to run a double dmu unit as far as Bere Alston at least every 2 hours, and split the train there into separate sections for Gunnislake and Tavistock.
• Even for an hourly service, a passing/dynamic loop is likely to be required at or close to Bere Ferrers station.
• The proposed station at Tavistock is poorly sited for the town centre; attempting to access the previous station site there would be more expensive.
• The existing bus service from Tavistock town centre to Plymouth is much more frequent (every 20 minutes) than the proposed rail service and serves many more potential traffic destinations in Plymouth, including Derriford Hospital.

The next stage of the project evaluation will hopefully consider these issues, and also examine alternative options to enhance public transport connectivity between Tavistock and Plymouth.

 

[zwk500]

Any proposed service is complicated by the need to retain the existing service to Gunnislake, at least 2 hourly, because of poor road connectivity across the River Tamar. The trackwork/signalling arrangements at Bere Alston may therefore need to be enhanced. The only way to avoid this would be to run a double dmu unit as far as Bere Alston at least every 2 hours, and split the train there into separate sections for Gunnislake and Tavistock

If you run a split/join service at Bere Alston you'll very likely need to install signalling for the attachment. You might be able to get away with a ground frame at the Gunnislake end and a stop board at the Tavistock end but I suspect there will be need to be some sort of equipment to enforce the stop if the platform is occupied.

 

[DDB]

I still think it would be fine to just go to Tavistock on the way to Gunnislake (reversing at Tavistock) and continue to use a crew worked ground frame. That would be much simpler and therfore cheaper!

A passing loop would still be needed somewhere south of the junction but that would be needed regardless of the scheme for a decent hourly service and so is an unavoidable cost.

 

[jayah]

Unfortunately the railway serves the river valley, some estates, the declining dockyard before arriving at the city centre of empty and derelict 1970s offices and shops.

The Naval Base employs 2,500 people and Babcock's facility in Devonport many more on top.

Plymouth Hoe & Barbican make it one of the best cities in the UK and Drake's Circus can hardly be described as derelict or 1970s.

 

[Pete_uk]

All ex BR stock needs to be replaced with a standard bi mode design of between 3 and 5 car design.

Simples

 

[Meerkat]

Standardisation is great until you realise your standard train isn’t very good but that’s all you have got…..and you have put the rivals out of business.

 

[30907]

I still think it would be fine to just go to Tavistock on the way to Gunnislake (reversing at Tavistock) and continue to use a crew worked ground frame. That would be much simpler and therfore cheaper!

Except that the round trip Tavistock-Gunnislake is near enough an hour, so you are limiting Tavistock to a 2-hourly train, while increasing the Gunnislake-Plymouth time by a third.

A passing loop would still be needed somewhere south of the junction but that would be needed regardless of the scheme for a decent hourly service and so is an avoidable cost.

As I said upthread, it is not essential, though it would be needed to provide a half-hourly service.

 

[paul1609]

The Naval Base employs 2,500 people and Babcock's facility in Devonport many more on top.

Having been based there for 6 years I can assure you that because of flexible shift work, emergency call out, need to carry large amounts of kit virtually none of the dockyard workers will use a train from anywhere in 2023.

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder what a totally independent loading and structural condition survey of Meldon viaduct would reveal.

There are effectively 2 viaducts, as opened as single line, and second was built later alongside.

Potentially some strengthening or even rebuilding using existing foundation piers might be possible, especially if it is rebuilt as a single line rather than full double track.

What about sticking a Penryn-style second platform in at Bere Alston? Tavistock-Plymouth draws into existing platform, Gunnislake-Bere Alston draws up behind into new second platform, connection is made without the need to change physical platform, Plymouth train departs. The same could also be done at Bere Ferrers to provide a passing loop.

It would certainly be possible to have staggered platforms. Would also be possible to build out the disused platform or slew track to it and rebuild It as an island. Both solutions have disadvantages, with staggered platform, Gunnislake trains would have to cross the through track. Rebuilding the disused platform as an island leaves it isolated from main entrance. It might be easier to rebuild the station few hundred metres SW and have junction as a V with a new direct spur across the field. Rather depends on what approach works from the approach road (which passes under the line)

The more pressing issue in terms of whether the line should be reopened is whether it can compete with the existing Tavistock-Plymouth bus service. According to my Deepest Devon correspondent, the buses from Tavistock to Plymouth take about an hour and are as reliable as a mule with an attitude problem.

My feeling is should treat Tavistock as an interim stage and make it possible to reopen more line, might not happen, might only happen in 25 years, but blocking the route, or allowing full double reopening in few decades would be foolish.

 

[Irascible]

Given it's been out of railway use for over half a century, I'd bet significantly worse than Ribblehead.

BR took one of the viaducts ( the oldest?)at Meldon OOU in about 1966 ? Before the through route closed as they thought it to weak.All traffic until the line closed used the other one. Track was in place in the viaduct until the early 90's ? For shunting at the quarry. I have seen a loco and string of wagons almost quarterway across from the valley below. It would never pass stringent modern standards of health and safety however.

It was used as a headshunt for Meldon Quarry - I believe it went out of use before the quarry did because it was deteriorating too much to be used even for that, but don't quote me on it.

--

Tavistock would make more sense as a tram-train & the branch diverted into the city IMO, but that's a massively bigger investment.

 

[yorksrob]

Meldon needs a nice, slender Swiss style viaduct out of concrete alongside the existing structures to enable a reopening.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Stagecoach will introduce a new bus timetable Tavistock - Plymouth 'to improve punctuality and reliability' from 3rd September i.e. lengthen the journey times even further. The current peak hour buses take a whopping 79 minutes from Tavistock to Royal Parade, Plymouth because of traffic congestion. The only good news is that the Sunday service is improved to half-hourly during the day (currently hourly).

 

[Irascible]

Meldon needs a nice, slender Swiss style viaduct out of concrete alongside the existing structures to enable a reopening.

IIRC we were chucking around figures of somewhat the far side of £100m for a new viaduct the last time we threw numbers around, and the world has gone a bit mad since then - anyone care to lob a new number in?

Also, ew.

 

[daodao]

Meldon needs a nice, slender Swiss style viaduct out of concrete alongside the existing structures to enable a reopening.

That would be a white elephant and an utter waste of money. There is virtually no plausible case for re-opening the line from Okehampton to Tavistock.

 

[yorksrob]

IIRC we were chucking around figures of somewhat the far side of £100m for a new viaduct the last time we threw numbers around, and the world has gone a bit mad since then - anyone care to lob a new number in?

Also, ew.

"Ew" ? The Swiss have some very attractive viaducts for steep, narrow valleys.

 

[ollyexe2808]

That would be a white elephant and an utter waste of money. There is virtually no plausible case for re-opening the line from Okehampton to Tavistock.

Isn't there a case for a relief line from Exeter to further west as an alternative to the Dawlish sea wall route? Insomuch as the Dawlish to Teignmouth section is, despite the recent upgrades, still a single point of failure which connects a fair number of people to the rest of the country. Wouldn't there be a cost/benefit case based on creating a secondary route linking Tavistock/Plymouth via the Okehampton route? (saying this with no understanding of logistics or engineering but purely from an interest perspective).

 

[Gloster]

It is years since I have been to Bere Alston and I am not up to date with modern standards, but…

Install axle-counters at St Budeaux and Bere Alston, including for One Train Working on to Calstock and Tavistock. A facing point (to trains from St Budeaux) half-way along the platform leading into a headshunt on the old Up line, which then allows reversal on to the Calstock line. A train for Tavistock just runs straight into the platform and the same on return. A Calstock train, which is likely to be shorter, stops short of the points, then once station duties are complete it runs into the headshunt, driver changes end and then off to Calstock. On the return it runs into the head shunt and then out to the platform. Supervision by the relevant signalbox; the points and signals could be controlled by the box, but a simplified system using guard operation (as at Coombe, but all singing and dancing) might be possible.

I am not sure that this is in the correct thread, but I am not going to write it out again. It does assume that there will never be an extension beyond Tavistock, which strikes me as the only possible answer.

 

[30907]

It is years since I have been to Bere Alston and I am not up to date with modern standards, but…

Install axle-counters at St Budeaux and Bere Alston, including for One Train Working on to Calstock and Tavistock. A facing point (to trains from St Budeaux) half-way along the platform leading into a headshunt on the old Up line, which then allows reversal on to the Calstock line. A train for Tavistock just runs straight into the platform and the same on return. A Calstock train, which is likely to be shorter, stops short of the points, then once station duties are complete it runs into the headshunt, driver changes end and then off to Calstock. On the return it runs into the head shunt and then out to the platform. Supervision by the relevant signalbox; the points and signals could be controlled by the box, but a simplified system using guard operation (as at Coombe, but all singing and dancing) might be possible.

I think you are right (on the basis of the 3tp2h scenario).

I had been thinking you could do the job with no additional pointwork, just signals in all directions, but I can see that the prospect of a train approaching from Okehampton while the Plymouth- Gunnislake is sat at BA (which that timetable implies) might make various bodies rather nervous.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Isn't there a case for a relief line from Exeter to further west as an alternative to the Dawlish sea wall route? Insomuch as the Dawlish to Teignmouth section is, despite the recent upgrades, still a single point of failure which connects a fair number of people to the rest of the country. Wouldn't there be a cost/benefit case based on creating a secondary route linking Tavistock/Plymouth via the Okehampton route? (saying this with no understanding of logistics or engineering but purely from an interest perspective).

The upgrades make that single point of failure less prone to failure, and diversionary benefits alone do not a business case make. Any inland route needs to stand on its own feet for the 95%+ of the time that the sea wall is fine.
Dawlish feels vulnerable because of the history of washouts, but there are plenty of other routes with a single point of failure that are less obvious, and other stretches of that same route are just as vulnerable (low bridges for example)- albeit quicker and easier to fix than a complete washout.

 

[yorksrob]

The upgrades make that single point of failure less prone to failure, and diversionary benefits alone do not a business case make. Any inland route needs to stand on its own feet for the 95%+ of the time that the sea wall is fine.
Dawlish feels vulnerable because of the history of washouts, but there are plenty of other routes with a single point of failure that are less obvious, and other stretches of that same route are just as vulnerable (low bridges for example)- albeit quicker and easier to fix than a complete washout.

Most of those other vulnerable routes have another way round.

There Are three settlements on the route populous enough to justify a regional through service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Most of those other vulnerable routes have another way round.

There Are three settlements on the route populous enough to justify a regional through service.

That bridge strike in Plymouth a few years ago didn't have an alternative. Same route, just a different location.

There's also the potential that if an alternative route was built, it'd only take another washout similar to the one a decade or so ago and the Dawlish route would end up being either abandoned or rebuilt as a single-track, locals only shadow of it's former self. As long as it's the only route, it would need a truly catastrophic event to close it for good.

 

[yorksrob]

That bridge strike in Plymouth a few years ago didn't have an alternative. Same route, just a different location.

There's also the potential that if an alternative route was built, it'd only take another washout similar to the one a decade or so ago and the Dawlish route would end up being either abandoned or rebuilt as a single-track, locals only shadow of it's former self. As long as it's the only route, it would need a truly catastrophic event to close it for good.

It's a fairly defeatist attitude for railway users if we must be expected to resist any new route in case the existing one is closed. What does that sort of argument say about HS2 or NPR ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's a fairly defeatist attitude for railway users if we must be expected to resist any new route in case the existing one is closed. What does that sort of argument say about HS2 or NPR ?

To be fair, Dawlish is something of a unique case due to vulnerability to the elements. Thankfully the new and improved sea defences and wall should keep it in good shape for a while at least.
NPR as a completely new railway I hope doesn't happen, not least because it'll end up being revised and bypassing Huddersfield, turning it into a backwater. All the "why don't trains run fast between Leeds and Manchester?" brigade will get their wish. Also, if NPR happens it'll basically end all hope of the proper Eastern leg of HS2 being revived, and the plan to send Leeds HS2 services via Manchester as a compromise is utterly daft.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, Dawlish is something of a unique case due to vulnerability to the elements. Thankfully the new and improved sea defences and wall should keep it in good shape for a while at least.
NPR as a completely new railway I hope doesn't happen, not least because it'll end up being revised and bypassing Huddersfield, turning it into a backwater. All the "why don't trains run fast between Leeds and Manchester?" brigade will get their wish. Also, if NPR happens it'll basically end all hope of the proper Eastern leg of HS2 being revived, and the plan to send Leeds HS2 services via Manchester as a compromise is utterly daft.

I also think that they could achieve most of what they need for trans pennine with the upgrade and electrification.

For Dawlish, the current works making a washout less likely should secure the main lines future well enough to withstand the inland route.

 

[ollyexe2808]

I also think that they could achieve most of what they need for trans pennine with the upgrade and electrification.

For Dawlish, the current works making a washout less likely should secure the main lines future well enough to withstand the inland route.

Agreed. And your point about defeatism is pertinent too. I recognise that just having Oke to Plym as a relief line isn't beneficial in and of itself but how about the North Dartmoor/North Devon/Cornwall communities as well, and just the general fact that having a secondary line is a wise idea for future proofing and network expansion? It is a delicate balance I know, because we are beholden to financial structures that mean it has to be economically viable to run....but then, with roads, we have the A30 and A38 running through Devon and Cornwall, yet upgrades to one don't negate the other, because they serve different cohorts and communities (I recognise comparing different modes is not helpful but easiest way to get my point across).

Sorry....this is a bit off topic now so I will leave it there!

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't there a case for a relief line from Exeter to further west as an alternative to the Dawlish sea wall route?

Wouldn't there be a cost/benefit case based on creating a secondary route linking Tavistock/Plymouth via the Okehampton route?

There isn’t a case. It was studied following the Dawlish washout nearly a decade ago. The report showed that the BCR for a line via Okehampton was ‘very poor’, as was the case for any other option for diverting the line. Given that the existing line needs to be retained to access Torbay (and of course Dawlish and Teignmouth), it seems to me a very sensible use of money to spend a rather smaller amount on keeping it open, rather than trying to build a new railway through a national park.

That, of course, is what has been done.

The report is here (too much to quote)

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/West-of-Exeter-Route-Resilience-Study.pdf

It's a fairly defeatist attitude for railway users if we must be expected to resist any new route in case the existing one is closed.

It‘s a fairly defeatist attitude for the railway if we must expect an existing railway to be closed in an unplanned manner often enough to require a whole new railway to be built. (rather than doing something to stop it being closed in the first place)

 

[DelW]

Dawlish feels vulnerable because of the history of washouts, but there are plenty of other routes with a single point of failure that are less obvious, and other stretches of that same route are just as vulnerable (low bridges for example)- albeit quicker and easier to fix than a complete washout.

Most of those other vulnerable routes have another way round.

Routes I can think of which could be blocked by a single failure include:

• Everywhere west of Llanelli (Carmarthen, Pembroke Dock, Milford Haven, Fishguard)
• Everywhere west of Shrewsbury (Aberystwyth, Pwllheli)
• Everywhere west of Shotton (Llandudno, Holyhead)
• Everywhere west of Dalmuir (Helensburgh, Oban, Fort William, Mallaig)
• Everywhere north or west of Inverness (Kyle of Lochalsh, Wick, Thurso)

as well as various smaller branches.

None of those include anywhere close to the size of Plymouth, but neither are they insignificant, especially as many of them link to essential ferry services.