Virgin Voyagers

[LE Greys]

If it was XC you were talking about then trains from the SW could use the snow hill lines or the camp hill line (if the new Bordesley chords were opened) to get to Moor st. Then they could still get to their destinations by going though grand central junction and using surrounding lines.

I imagine that would mess up the connections at New Street (as if that wasn't bad enough already) and might not have been practical back in 1997 when the Voyagers were ordered. Of course, back then I thought that the HSTs would stay when the Voyagers came in, but that sensible idea didn't happen.

 

[junglejames]

Thank goodness the 180s are more comfortable. On a identical journey you'd be spending more time on them due to the likelihood of a breakdown!

The same GreatWestern that got rid of these trains?

So the 9 car (originally) should have gone to 5 car 180s? Forgetting that Meridens are comfortable, very reliable, spacious, no smells, and all in all a fabulous train, with no major problems I can think of. Oh and they look fantastic!

The reason the 220s have the same body as the (larger build) 221s is purely a cost saving measure! It was a smaller fleet so it wasn't worth the money, or the effort on the part of BomBarbie. Now if a 220 had the same accident as that 222 running around with a yellow nose last year, then they could stuck a 221 cab on the end, saving money!

Fleet renewal needed to rushed into, 47s+mkIIs were very aged on the XC route. As well as the mkIIs on the WCML, as well as the constant 86/87/90 failures and them failing to work with the DVTs correctly all to often.

Pendolinos have no significant shortcomings really. Yes a big window would be nice, at the expense of crashworthiness and maybe weight? The significant increase in speed and reliability is probably well appreciated by travellers (something 180s really lacked!) Who knows, the new coaches and 390 054 might have the toilets improved.

But as said, with a larger fleet, the 180s problems could have been sorted out. Yes Meridians are spacious compared to a voyager, but we dont need tilt profiled bodies on trains that are never intended to tilt. 180s are more spacious.
I know why virgin went for the same body on the 220s. Ive said exactly the same thing myself. Cost at the expense of decent. Typical privatisation.

Rushing into fleet renewal is fine as long as you replace old with a better train. Virgin have rushed in, and replaced old with a worse train. So actually, rushing in was a very bad idea, and wasnt needed.

Pendolinos have no significant problems? Interesting, considering they suffer the same problems as the voyagers, in being extremely cramped, and cheaply put together.
Significant increase in reliability on the WCML? Well dont tell everybody this (its our little secret), but these same 90s and Mk3s that were supposedly awfully unreliable, are actually right now performing more reliably than the 390s. Dam those 90s for being so reliable. If only they werent so reliable, these passengers on the WCML could have been seeing a real increase in reliability!!!

Yes, I know the increase in speed on the WCML is good, but was renewal of the old stock so urgent that we ended up getting a worse train? (Oh, and thats passengers opinions on the interior of a pendo where that comes from).

If virgin/ Bombardier/ Alstom had taken a step back, and actually looked at what they were building, then we could have had a much better fleet of trains.
OK, i would still have prefered Mk3s, but at least we would have had a very respectable fleet of trains.

 

[Class172]

FGW should get more 180's for Cotwold line services. Currently it's operated by 166's and the odd HST - especially when the Cotwold line doubling is finished

 

[TomJ93]

Well we've left them with a small fleet of 180s but plenty of time, but yet they still breakdown. They were rather rushed into I would say They only needed to get 10 right.

If the interiors are not upto scratch, 10 year old Voyagers and 8 year old Pendolinos would be undergoing extensive refurbishment right now, but yet they're not in need of replacement. I'm sure a cheap plastic crappy interior would not have survived Greyrigg as well as 390 033. Yes the interiors are a bit small, my six footer friends still manage fine. A nice example of the improvement of quality is the fact pendolinos are pressurised ( a nice feature) and the tables! The tables and the 390s and the 220/1s are fab! MkIII ones are crap, lets me honest.

Any proof to that 90 statistic? Sounds mighty fishy seeing as I follow the Pretendo every Friday and the bloody 90s pack in alot! Also NXEA have to hire in one from DB whilst Ilford (?) deals with a few defective ones. As well as a anecdote I've read on this forum about Cally sleeper calamities due to our friends the 90s!

I can't imagine getting a better train really, everything is going to have some sort of issue.

I don't hate 180s (or 90s for that matter). It's just mechanical failures are unforgivable on the railway, especially now they have to potential to cause havoc on the ECML. And after years it still has not been cured.

 

[junglejames]

OK, im going to shout this from the roof tops. I know the 180s are less reliable than the 22whatevers, but with a larger fleet this could have been sorted.
Discounting this, the 180s are nicer than the Meridians. They are more spacious, they are quieter, and they dont suffer the horrible vibrations that the 22whatevers do. Oh, and they have a better ride quality.

In reality, we should never have DMUs on XC, and everything mentioned is a step down from the HST/ Mk3, but id much rather 180s to the 220s on XC, and the 180s would be nicer than the 222s on EMT.
Yes 180s are heavier than 220s and 222s. But a lot of this is down to the fact the 220s/ 222s have that horrible lightweight bogie. This is one of the reasons 180s have a better ride quality, because of the heavier bogie. Id rather the heavier train and the better ride quality.
As mentioned, the thought of a 180 on London to Inverness is not nice, and the day we lose HSTs on this service, is the day the service dies. But, id much rather 180s over 220s, and to an extent 222s, anyday.

Its a shame no one persevered with them and tried to sort out the reliability issues, but by the seems of it, Alstom were a nightmare to do business with back then, and so they shot themselves in the foot. They would never have been ordered instead of 220s, obviously (although they should have been), but they really could have picked up much more in the way of orders had they treated the TOCs better.

 

[TomJ93]

"OK, im going to shout this from the roof tops. I know the 180s are less reliable than the 22whatevers, but with a larger fleet this could have been sorted.
Discounting this, the 180s are nicer than the Meridians. They are more spacious, they are quieter, and they dont suffer the horrible vibrations that the 22whatevers do. Oh, and they have a better ride quality."

No. They have had 9 whole years to sort out a small fleet. There are units in storage, they can take them away and look at them! If they could have fixed them they would've by now. We can't discount reliability, at the end of the day it's what makes the railways tick. If we bought units which were fab in every way but the reliability was a mess, than the system would fall apart. Small windows and a funny smell don't stop people getting places, as i've said, if a 180 brokedown for GC on the approach to York, havoc.

"In reality, we should never have DMUs on XC"
Luckily for you we have lovely DEMUS

"As mentioned, the thought of a 180 on London to Inverness is not nice, and the day we lose HSTs on this service, is the day the service dies. But, id much rather 180s over 220s, and to an extent 222s, anyday."

i agree, but is it that heavily used for the entire journey? Or is everyone joining at intermittent points?

 

[All Line Rover]

Thank goodness the 180s are more comfortable. On a identical journey you'd be spending more time on them due to the likelihood of a breakdown!

The same GreatWestern that got rid of these trains?

So the 9 car (originally) should have gone to 5 car 180s? Forgetting that Meridens are comfortable, very reliable, spacious, no smells, and all in all a fabulous train, with no major problems I can think of. Oh and they look fantastic!

The reason the 220s have the same body as the (larger build) 221s is purely a cost saving measure! It was a smaller fleet so it wasn't worth the money, or the effort on the part of BomBarbie. Now if a 220 had the same accident as that 222 running around with a yellow nose last year, then they could stuck a 221 cab on the end, saving money!



But as said, with a larger fleet, the 180s problems could have been sorted out. Yes Meridians are spacious compared to a voyager, but we dont need tilt profiled bodies on trains that are never intended to tilt. 180s are more spacious.
I know why virgin went for the same body on the 220s. Ive said exactly the same thing myself. Cost at the expense of decent. Typical privatisation.

Rushing into fleet renewal is fine as long as you replace old with a better train. Virgin have rushed in, and replaced old with a worse train. So actually, rushing in was a very bad idea, and wasnt needed.

Pendolinos have no significant problems? Interesting, considering they suffer the same problems as the voyagers, in being extremely cramped, and cheaply put together.
Significant increase in reliability on the WCML? Well dont tell everybody this (its our little secret), but these same 90s and Mk3s that were supposedly awfully unreliable, are actually right now performing more reliably than the 390s. Dam those 90s for being so reliable. If only they werent so reliable, these passengers on the WCML could have been seeing a real increase in reliability!!!

Yes, I know the increase in speed on the WCML is good, but was renewal of the old stock so urgent that we ended up getting a worse train? (Oh, and thats passengers opinions on the interior of a pendo where that comes from).

If virgin/ Bombardier/ Alstom had taken a step back, and actually looked at what they were building, then we could have had a much better fleet of trains.
OK, i would still have prefered Mk3s, but at least we would have had a very respectable fleet of trains.

Some people just can't be pleased.

Voyagers and Pendolinos are decent trains, and are very crash worthy - much more than Mk2's and 3's! Imagine if the old rolling stock was involved in the Grayrigg derailment. I'm sure that there would have been many more fatalities.

Some people may find them a little claustrophobic, but that improves their crash worthiness.

The toilets may be big, but at least you can fit your suitcase in and still shut the door easily!

I do agree that not enough Standard Class seats line up with the windows - especially on Pendolinos. Virgin Trains could have done better. However, this problem affects almost all trains to a degree. I have never been in Standard Class on a Mk2 or 3, and never wish to, but I imagine that the same problem exists in these carriages.

The Pendolinos are my favourite type of InterCity train, and I much prefer them to the "Pretendolino." Apart from the window alignment, I don't see anything wrong with them.

Voyagers/Super Voyagers are just as good in my opinion, but are not well suited to InterCity travel with Virgin Trains, with travel times of a few hours. First Class isn't big enough, and the kitchen is too small for such a long journey. In my opinion they are better suited to CrossCountry. Virgin Trains shouldn't have any, at least on the Birmingham to Scotland route where they run under the wires!

The only BIG problem with Voyagers is that there aren't enough carriages. Extend them to 7 or 9 carriages, and they'll be fine.

 

[junglejames]

Well we've left them with a small fleet of 180s but plenty of time, but yet they still breakdown. They were rather rushed into I would say They only needed to get 10 right.

If the interiors are not upto scratch, 10 year old Voyagers and 8 year old Pendolinos would be undergoing extensive refurbishment right now, but yet they're not in need of replacement. I'm sure a cheap plastic crappy interior would not have survived Greyrigg as well as 390 033. Yes the interiors are a bit small, my six footer friends still manage fine. A nice example of the improvement of quality is the fact pendolinos are pressurised ( a nice feature) and the tables! The tables and the 390s and the 220/1s are fab! MkIII ones are crap, lets me honest.

Any proof to that 90 statistic? Sounds mighty fishy seeing as I follow the Pretendo every Friday and the bloody 90s pack in alot! Also NXEA have to hire in one from DB whilst Ilford (?) deals with a few defective ones. As well as a anecdote I've read on this forum about Cally sleeper calamities due to our friends the 90s!

I can't imagine getting a better train really, everything is going to have some sort of issue.

I don't hate 180s (or 90s for that matter). It's just mechanical failures are unforgivable on the railway, especially now they have to potential to cause havoc on the ECML. And after years it still has not been cured.

The interiors of the pendos and voyagers are liveable, but they arent that brilliant. They could have been so much better if more thought had gone in. Thats my main gripe with them.
The cheap and tacky pendos may stand up in a crash, but they are cheap to look at, and i hear quite a few vibrations from them, esp the voyagers.
As for the tables. The ones on the pendos and voyagers are annoying, in that the leg gets in my way all the time. Mk3s for me again im afraid.

As for NXEA 90s being more reliable, it comes from official reliability figures published in Modern Railway i think it was.
The problem with the Cally sleeper, is that they use DB 90s, and they are not as good because DB really do not look after them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"OK, im going to shout this from the roof tops. I know the 180s are less reliable than the 22whatevers, but with a larger fleet this could have been sorted.
Discounting this, the 180s are nicer than the Meridians. They are more spacious, they are quieter, and they dont suffer the horrible vibrations that the 22whatevers do. Oh, and they have a better ride quality."

No. They have had 9 whole years to sort out a small fleet. There are units in storage, they can take them away and look at them! If they could have fixed them they would've by now. We can't discount reliability, at the end of the day it's what makes the railways tick. If we bought units which were fab in every way but the reliability was a mess, than the system would fall apart. Small windows and a funny smell don't stop people getting places, as i've said, if a 180 brokedown for GC on the approach to York, havoc.

"In reality, we should never have DMUs on XC"
Luckily for you we have lovely DEMUS

"As mentioned, the thought of a 180 on London to Inverness is not nice, and the day we lose HSTs on this service, is the day the service dies. But, id much rather 180s over 220s, and to an extent 222s, anyday."

i agree, but is it that heavily used for the entire journey? Or is everyone joining at intermittent points?

Sorting out reliability would have required the cooperation of Alstom. Something that is not forthcoming, as already mentioned. Reliability could have been sorted out, but Alstom have no interest, and are very difficult to work with.

 

[TomJ93]

I'm hard to please? I like all 22xs and 390s!

"he only BIG problem with Voyagers is that there aren't enough carriages. Extend them to 7 or 9 carriages, and they'll be fine." Myself and tbtc have said for a while now.

Don't know the Pretendo, a run on it is great fun!

Surely they could have got somebody to help? I don't see EMT running back to BREL to get anything with their HSTs sorted?

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm hard to please? I like all 22xs and 390s!

"he only BIG problem with Voyagers is that there aren't enough carriages. Extend them to 7 or 9 carriages, and they'll be fine." Myself and tbtc have said for a while now.

Don't know the Pretendo, a run on it is great fun!

Surely they could have got somebody to help? I don't see EMT running back to BREL to get anything with their HSTs sorted?

Sorry, I was referring to JungleJames. The "quotes" get confusing after a while!

 

[junglejames]

Some people just can't be pleased.

Voyagers and Pendolinos are decent trains, and are very crash worthy - much more than Mk2's and 3's! Imagine if the old rolling stock was involved in the Grayrigg derailment. I'm sure that there would have been many more fatalities.

Some people may find them a little claustrophobic, but that improves their crash worthiness.

The toilets may be big, but at least you can fit your suitcase in and still shut the door easily!

I do agree that not enough Standard Class seats line up with the windows - especially on Pendolinos. Virgin Trains could have done better. However, this problem affects almost all trains to a degree. I have never been in Standard Class on a Mk2 or 3, and never wish to, but I imagine that the same problem exists in these carriages.

The Pendolinos are my favourite type of InterCity train, and I much prefer them to the "Pretendolino." Apart from the window alignment, I don't see anything wrong with them.

Voyagers/Super Voyagers are just as good in my opinion, but are not well suited to InterCity travel with Virgin Trains, with travel times of a few hours. First Class isn't big enough, and the kitchen is too small for such a long journey. In my opinion they are better suited to CrossCountry. Virgin Trains shouldn't have any, at least on the Birmingham to Scotland route where they run under the wires!

The only BIG problem with Voyagers is that there aren't enough carriages. Extend them to 7 or 9 carriages, and they'll be fine.

Im impressed. Mk3s are much worse, but you have never been on them?
You mention the virgin loco hauled set? Have you been on it? You make it sound like you have. If so, thats a Mk3.
Also, although i never mentioned seats lining up with windows, I will rectify a mistake of yours. This is not a problem on Mk2s.

If Voyagers are so fine, as you say, then why did Midland Mainline go to the extent of totally redesigning the interior for the 222s? Reason was because the voyagers are not fine, and are far from it. This sort of redesign could have happened with the pendos as well, ensuring they were much better than they are.
Sorry, but Pendos and voyagers are far from perfect, and its not just how short voyagers are.

One thing, you mention the voyagers/ pendos crashworthiness is partly down to how clautrophobic they are? So, your saying, depsite being exactly the same on the outside, 222s are not as crashworthy as voyagers? Because they have managed to redesign things so much they are much more spacious. Sorry, that statement of your is a long way from the truth.

You say im difficult to please? Well i could say its because ive experienced the Mk3, something you claim not to have done. Im not surprised the pendos are your favourite Intercity train. By the seems of it, that and the voyager are the only Intercity type train youve been on. In your case, id be saying exactly the same.

The performance of a 390 is very good, but inside, they are very poor, and could have been so much better. Thats my main gripe.

Sorry, just re read, and you said you havent been in Standard in a Mk2/3. Same still applies though, as this is where the major differences can be seen. 1st class on a pendo isnt too bad.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm hard to please? I like all 22xs and 390s!

"he only BIG problem with Voyagers is that there aren't enough carriages. Extend them to 7 or 9 carriages, and they'll be fine." Myself and tbtc have said for a while now.

Don't know the Pretendo, a run on it is great fun!

Surely they could have got somebody to help? I don't see EMT running back to BREL to get anything with their HSTs sorted?

Yes, i see youve both been saying that for a while now. TBTC seems pretty certain that everybody sees it that way as well. Apparently we only moan about it because they have 4/5 coaches. I wish that was the case. If it was, i would nevr moan about them.
Youve only got to go on a 222 to see how bad the voyagers are.
I actually think the major gripe about voyagers is the runs they are on. They are not Intercity trains and shouldnt be used as such.

As for sorting out the 180s. Its apparently the engine management systems that are the problem. This would very likely need the cooperation of Alstom.
They could be reliable, but nobody (especially not Alstom) seem to care. I expect the reason FGW got rid of them is because it was easier to do that than to try and work with Alstom again.

 

[387star]

How are 180s more spacious than a class 222 out of interest?

PS once the HSTs are cascaded from Great Western they could be reformed in to 5 coach sets to boost XC and keep to time.

As time goes by it surely becomes less economical to lengthen the voyagers.

They might become ideal for certain 158 runs such as Norwich-Liverpool and FGW (ex Wessex) services to Penzance as well as ScotRail services from Edinburgh to Inverness etc iun the future

 

[junglejames]

How are 180s more spacious than a class 222 out of interest?

PS once the HSTs are cascaded from Great Western they could be reformed in to 5 coach sets to boost XC and keep to time.

As time goes by it surely becomes less economical to lengthen the voyagers.

They might become ideal for certain 158 runs such as Norwich-Liverpool and FGW (ex Wessex) services to Penzance as well as ScotRail services from Edinburgh to Inverness etc iun the future

They just are more spacious. Mainly through not having a tilt enabled body.
Problem with putting voyagers onto Norwich to Liverpool and Edinburgh to Inverness, is they are too fast. That sort of speed is too much, and so youd be burning unnecessary fuel with engines too powerful for the run.
Also they dont have anywhere near enough luggage space for Inverness runs. You cant fit anything of decent size into the overhead racks, and the racks at the ends of coaches are inadequate.
In reality, the voyagers arent really suitable for many runs at all.

 

[tbtc]

once the HSTs are cascaded from Great Western they could be reformed in to 5 coach sets to boost XC and keep to time

Its a nice idea, but I'm not sure that the acceleration could cope on all duties. I may be wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They have had 9 whole years to sort out a small fleet. There are units in storage, they can take them away and look at them! If they could have fixed them they would've by now. We can't discount reliability, at the end of the day it's what makes the railways tick. If we bought units which were fab in every way but the reliability was a mess, than the system would fall apart. Small windows and a funny smell don't stop people getting places, as i've said, if a 180 brokedown for GC on the approach to York, havoc

I agree.

We couldn't have waited ten years to Alstom to sort out their 180s, we needed reliable trains a decade ago. In an ideal world, the 180s would actually work and Alstom could have sold dozens of them (I'm not exagerrating to suggest one hundred, given the Arriva plan for them on Transpennine).

But there's no use for pretty ornaments on the railways, and if they've not been fixed properly yet then I really can't see a long term use that relies on their availability.

 

[RobShipway]

How are 180s more spacious than a class 222 out of interest?

PS once the HSTs are cascaded from Great Western they could be reformed in to 5 coach sets to boost XC and keep to time.

As time goes by it surely becomes less economical to lengthen the voyagers.

They might become ideal for certain 158 runs such as Norwich-Liverpool and FGW (ex Wessex) services to Penzance as well as ScotRail services from Edinburgh to Inverness etc iun the future

Better idea is replace the Virgin Voyagers with IEP hybrids and move the Virgin Voyagers over to XC.

Then get bombardier to add a carriage to each Voyager set so that a pantograph can be added so that the full extent of the DEMU capability can be used.

 

[TomJ93]

Its a nice idea, but I'm not sure that the acceleration could cope on all duties. I may be wrong.

Also, correct my if I am wrong the current East Coast is signalled still to Deltic performance, HSTs have superior braking hence being allowed faster speeds. Less coaches, less brakes, slower speed limit on the ECML due to not being able to brake within the exsisting signal blocks.

 

[All Line Rover]

Im impressed. Mk3s are much worse, but you have never been on them?
You mention the virgin loco hauled set? Have you been on it? You make it sound like you have. If so, thats a Mk3.
Also, although i never mentioned seats lining up with windows, I will rectify a mistake of yours. This is not a problem on Mk2s.

If Voyagers are so fine, as you say, then why did Midland Mainline go to the extent of totally redesigning the interior for the 222s? Reason was because the voyagers are not fine, and are far from it. This sort of redesign could have happened with the pendos as well, ensuring they were much better than they are.
Sorry, but Pendos and voyagers are far from perfect, and its not just how short voyagers are.

One thing, you mention the voyagers/ pendos crashworthiness is partly down to how clautrophobic they are? So, your saying, depsite being exactly the same on the outside, 222s are not as crashworthy as voyagers? Because they have managed to redesign things so much they are much more spacious. Sorry, that statement of your is a long way from the truth.

You say im difficult to please? Well i could say its because ive experienced the Mk3, something you claim not to have done. Im not surprised the pendos are your favourite Intercity train. By the seems of it, that and the voyager are the only Intercity type train youve been on. In your case, id be saying exactly the same.

The performance of a 390 is very good, but inside, they are very poor, and could have been so much better. Thats my main gripe.

Sorry, just re read, and you said you havent been in Standard in a Mk2/3. Same still applies though, as this is where the major differences can be seen. 1st class on a pendo isnt too bad.

Voyagers are fine, but there's always room for improvement! The 222s are even better. It is true that the 222s are just as crash worthy as the 220s and 221s, but they are a second attempt, and so the interiors are bound to be better!

All I am saying is that the 220s and 221s are good enough - they are pleasant to travel on, are safe, and in my opinion are an improvement upon the previous generation of trains. The same applies for Mk3's, which are good enough. East Coast's First Class (on Mk3's) was very nice. (I did look inside Standard Class, and decided that I would plump for First Class every time!) However, I didn't like VT "Pretendolino", and preferred the real thing.

I just don't understand why some people always criticise Voyagers, Super Voyagers, and Pendolinos! The same could be said about other trains! I think that the Mk2's are getting really outdated now - they are one of the only trains left with slam doors! I also think that they look uglier than a Pendolino.

 

[junglejames]

Its a nice idea, but I'm not sure that the acceleration could cope on all duties. I may be wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree.

We couldn't have waited ten years to Alstom to sort out their 180s, we needed reliable trains a decade ago. In an ideal world, the 180s would actually work and Alstom could have sold dozens of them (I'm not exagerrating to suggest one hundred, given the Arriva plan for them on Transpennine).

But there's no use for pretty ornaments on the railways, and if they've not been fixed properly yet then I really can't see a long term use that relies on their availability.

It really is such a shame that Alstom have been like they have. Help FGW sort the problems out, and you could have encouraged more orders. These would be modified, and so reliable from the off, and eventually you could have ended up with a much bigger order.
Alstom really did shoot themselves in the foot bigstyle. One of the reasons they get no orders in this country now, plus one of the reasons all the HSTs have got MTU engines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Voyagers are fine, but there's always room for improvement! The 222s are even better. It is true that the 222s are just as crash worthy as the 220s and 221s, but they are a second attempt, and so the interiors are bound to be better!

All I am saying is that the 220s and 221s are good enough - they are pleasant to travel on, are safe, and in my opinion are an improvement upon the previous generation of trains. The same applies for Mk3's, which are good enough. East Coast's First Class (on Mk3's) was very nice. (I did look inside Standard Class, and decided that I would plump for First Class every time!) However, I didn't like VT "Pretendolino", and preferred the real thing.

I just don't understand why some people always criticise Voyagers, Super Voyagers, and Pendolinos! The same could be said about other trains! I think that the Mk2's are getting really outdated now - they are one of the only trains left with slam doors! I also think that they look uglier than a Pendolino.

Good enough? Questionable. Pleasant to travel on? Depends on what you look for in a train, but invariably they arent. We shall have to agree to disagree, but i find them a massive come down on what they replaced. Mk3s win anytime, as do Mk2s.

The reason so many people criticise them is because they are poorly designed, and, with voyagers, on the wrong routes. The same cant be said about other trains as much, because they havent been so poorly designed.
Mk2s are dated yes, but still more comofrtable and pleasant to travel on.
Mk3s themselves look dated in places, but still more pleasant to travel on.
Whats wrong with slam doors? Survived all these years with no problems.

Its not best to compare virgins mk 3 set though. This has not been looked after at all. Its best to go for a Mk3 set that has been looked after. EMTs as a good example of what can be done even with the original seats. WSMRs sets for the ultimate in what can be done!!

As said though, we shall agree to disagree. I cant stand the seats in voyagers and pendys, and they have been hellishly designed inside. I can sit and relax in a Mk3, but i cant on a voyager or pendy.

Finally, your comment about not liking virgins mk3 set, and prefering the real thing. That is highly unfair. The Mk3 set is not a pretend pendy. Considering the ages this is not possible. It is a Mk3, whilst the pendy is a pendy.
Plus, the Mk3s are real trains.

Oh, and i need some help. These pendys. Do we call them a pretendotrain, or a pretendoAPT


Oh, and the 222s are much better because they were thought about. This is what the voyagers should have been like.

 

[tbtc]

It really is such a shame that Alstom have been like they have. Help FGW sort the problems out, and you could have encouraged more orders. These would be modified, and so reliable from the off, and eventually you could have ended up with a much bigger order.
Alstom really did shoot themselves in the foot bigstyle. One of the reasons they get no orders in this country now, plus one of the reasons all the HSTs have got MTU engines

Worth noting that nobody bought any 175s (after the initial batch arrived at First North Western), there will still quite a few 170s purchased after this date though.

Alstom's problems mean we are now left with two small fleets of trains that will be a headache in future...

 

[junglejames]

Worth noting that nobody bought any 175s (after the initial batch arrived at First North Western), there will still quite a few 170s purchased after this date though.

Alstom's problems mean we are now left with two small fleets of trains that will be a headache in future...

Yes, very true. Alstom really have a lot to answer for in some respects.
Im just grateful we have some 175s though. Lovely units.

 

[BestWestern]

On the subject of 175's - 'Corradia' or something similar? - what was the story with these ending up in Wales; did First want rid of these as well as the 180's, or did the transfer happen at a later stage for another reason? Have always been curious about them, they're appealingly different I always think, very nice looking trains.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Lets move this in a different direction. If you were put in charge of a major pendo/voyager refurb for vt and xc, involving stripping out everything, what would you do, apart from the obvious seats and windows, minging bogs and better luggage wracks?

 

[jones_bangor]

On the subject of 175's - 'Corradia' or something similar? - what was the story with these ending up in Wales; did First want rid of these as well as the 180's, or did the transfer happen at a later stage for another reason? Have always been curious about them, they're appealingly different I always think, very nice looking trains.

They are nice trains - they're maintained at the Alstom depot in Chester, so it was always going to be FNW or Arriva that took them on. There was a lot of talk of the 180s coming to Wales as well - given their similarities with the 175s - this could be a sensible idea in the long run and could allow 1st class on South Wales - Manchester and LLandudno - Manchester services.

 

[tbtc]

On the subject of 175's - 'Corradia' or something similar? - what was the story with these ending up in Wales; did First want rid of these as well as the 180's, or did the transfer happen at a later stage for another reason? Have always been curious about them, they're appealingly different I always think, very nice looking trains.

They were introduced for two areas - Manchester to Llandudno and Manchester to Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool.

The fleet was too small to "share" between two TOCs, so when the franchises were redrawn it had to be one or the other. The Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool routes were getting new stock (the 185s), so it made sense to put them all in the Wales & Borders franchise.

I don't think it was anything to do with First deciding (correct me if I'm wrong)
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Lets move this in a different direction. If you were put in charge of a major pendo/voyager refurb for vt and xc, involving stripping out everything, what would you do, apart from the obvious seats and windows, minging bogs and better luggage wracks?

1. More coaches
2. More coaches
3. More coaches

If there's any money left after these improvements, I'd buy some more coaches.

 

[TomJ93]

And after all those improvements you'd be left with a very nice train.

 

[BestWestern]

Ah, franchise politics as ever then! As for the Voyagers, I'd agree more coaches has to be the priority, but as a full strip-out was mentioned I'd be looking at better insulation/engine mountings to try and stifle the awful vibration, and a better choice of lighter colours to reduce the claustrophobic effect of the already too narrow body.

 

[RobShipway]

If you stay with MK3 coaches, then work will need to be done to change the slam doors as within years time I don't believe slam door trains will be safety compliant, so you would need to have them converted to sliding door trains as the MK3 coaches in Ireland where created. I believe I remember seeing footage somewhere of a company tasked with the possibility of converting all the MK3 carriages to sliding door so that they are safety compliant for another 20 - 30 years.

 

[headshot119]

Robbies.

ABB trains refurbed a MKII and fitted it with a plug door. And also redid the interior. It's quite nice inside.

 

[BestWestern]

Or just purchase some of the recently withdrawn Irish fleet and use the existing MK3 bogies to re-guage them.

 

[387star]

Out of interest do we really need an entire First Class carriage on some XC Voyager workings. In effect the train is only 3 carriages if it is a Voyager!

Is there any way the interior could be improved and are there any suggestions. How well is the new luggage space being used now it is fully advertised and has it made a big difference? The last time I was on a Voyager it seemed no better than pre works with luggage spilling over everywhere and the usual complaints about train length and luggage space whilst I was being hit by the guard's ticket machine as he walked up and down!