Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[pokemonsuper9]

Went on a /1 from Leeds to Wakefield and certainly aren't as busy as a single /0 from Deansgate to Buckshaw. Hopefully they'll run double /0s and single /1s instead of single /0s, would be better capacity but hoping they don't steal my beloved 331029

I have a feeling the 12 /1s would replace the 15 319s (directly or indirectly) more than replacing the 331/0s they just displaced

 

[Mamorin]

I have a feeling the 12 /1s would replace the 15 319s (directly or indirectly) more than replacing the 331/0s they just displaced

Thats what they are doing once the /1s come West the 319s will be withdrawn.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

Hopefully they'll run double /0s and single /1s instead of single /0s

All the /0s sent to the East are apparently planned to be run in doubles, this will allow for some 333s to be used on Doncaster services iirc.

 

[J-2739]

The 331 swaps start in October/November.
12 for 12.

Good. Back to where they belong.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

All the /0s sent to the East are apparently planned to be run in doubles, this will allow for some 333s to be used on Doncaster services iirc.

So 12 sets (the 4 cars) are being replaced for 6 sets (3+3 cars).
Are there a number of spare 333s to take over jobs or is this purely a consequence of the 319s going off lease?

 

[Mamorin]

Its a like for like swap 12 4 car sets for 12 3 cars sets, as mentioned in a post above.

Plan is apparently for the 3 car 331s (running as doubles) to replace 333s on some triangle diagrams thus freeing some 333s up for Doncaster services.

As for the /0 and /1 swap It has everything to do with the 319s going off lease, as the 319s could only go off lease if a replacement was found.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss updates regarding the Northern Tender for up 450 units

 

[stan claire]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss updates regarding the Northern Tender for up 450 units

should we create a new thread for the 331 displacement?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

should we create a new thread for the 331 displacement?

There is quite a difference between a proposed tender for new unit purchases and the relocation of existing rolling stock.

 

[InTheEastMids]

If experience with multi-mode regional units in the UK is a requirement, stadler is undeniably the furthest ahead, followed by hitachi (who could probably apply lessons from their 80x to a regional style unit, or something like a 385). However, I suspect all manufacturers will be making designs.

Hitachi also have a tri-mode regional platform entering service with Trenitalia, so if that is going smoothly, it'll help them.

Not explicit policy at present, but any new diesel-only units would have to be retired before 2050 because of the legally binding carbon budget for the year 2050.

I am sure there will be an attempt to fudge things with "sustainable fuels" e.g. biofuel/HVO or synthetic and allow things like 195s to operate post-2050. Fuel costs of these might get frightening though as I think lots of sectors are secretly hoping they can get to Net Zero making as little change as possible and sustainable biofuels are a constrained resource and the laws of science unfortunately make efuel production and use in diesel engines likely to be an expensive exercise.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hitachi also have a tri-mode regional platform entering service with Trenitalia, so if that is going smoothly, it'll help them.

It's the Hitachi Blues train, built at Pistoia for Trenitalia.
The procurement is not dissimilar to the Northern intentions: a 135-unit framework agreement with an initial order of 43.

Trenitalia and Hitachi sing the Blues

INNOTRANS: Hitachi Rail and Trenitalia unveiled a tri-mode regional multiple-unit in Berlin on September 21 which is branded 'Blues' in keeping with the national operator's musically-themed fleet designations.

www.railwaygazette.com

Hitachi says the design has superior acceleration and a higher maximum speed of 160 km/h than the trains currently used on non-electrified lines thanks to the battery top-up function. All the trains have ETCS onboard equipment fitted and have seats for 300 passengers.
The supplier has a €1∙2bn framework agreement with Trenitalia to supply up to 135 Blues trains for use throughout Italy, of which a firm order has been placed for 43. An initial batch of 17 will run in Sicily, while Trenitalia has allocated 11 for Toscana, eight in Sardinia, four in Val d’Aosta and Lazio the remaining three.
The fleet is being manufactured at Hitachi Rail’s factories in Pistoia and Napoli.

According to Modern Railways (Feb 2023) the trains entered service in Sicily in December last.
There are 3 and 4 car variants, with the 4-car rated at 160km/h, and all use the 3kV DC network.
A UK version would have to be re-engineered.

 

[JamesT]

Not explicit policy at present, but any new diesel-only units would have to be retired before 2050 because of the legally binding carbon budget for the year 2050. All diesel units will have to be retired by then, so ordering new diesel units now guarantees a short life, which increases cost whether you buy outright or lease them.

It's also important to remember that this tender specifies all units either need to be decarbonised from the start, or designed to make decarbonisation later in life easy, so you can see this realisation working through in this tender.

2050 is a deadline for _Net_ Zero. There's nothing to stop diesel-only trains running if there's an equivalent amount of carbon being taken out of the atmosphere.
As for legally binding, it's well known that Parliament cannot bind its successors. It may be 'controversial', or even 'courageous' (© Sir Humphrey Appleby), but a future government could decide the costs of complying aren't worth it and repeal the Climate Change Act.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

2050 is a deadline for _Net_ Zero.

2050 is 27 years advanced into the future from 2023. Many things can happen in 2050 which we cannot foretell at this moment in time.

Remember that in 1923, there was no intimation that having been just a few years removed the ending of The Great War, that we would once again be at war with Germany in sixteen years time.

 

[H&I]

Will the new trains have level boarding? Ideally, the new trains will have level boarding to platforms at the 915 mm standard height to improve accessibility for wheelchair users.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Will the new trains have level boarding? Ideally, the new trains will have level boarding to platforms at the 915 mm standard height to improve accessibility for wheelchair users.

Does not appear to be required as part of the tender, but whatever

demonstrable delivery of social value.

means could be attributed to level boarding.

 

[Energy]

means could be attributed to level boarding.

I'd expect that to be more about using UK assembly and UK suppliers.

If you required UK assembly you'd get manufacturers doing the bare minimum at the end in the UK.

For example the class 555s weren't built in the the UK but did use a lot of UK suppliers while the Hitachi bid used a lot of overseas suppliers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does not appear to be required as part of the tender, but whatever

The tender has not been issued yet, we are at the "expressions of interest" stage.

 

[anthony263]

It seems to be moving away from CAF as they’re not designed any bi or tri mode units

Think caf have said they could do a bi mode class 195/331 but this was oy designed after they'd started building the northern units. Think Northern were looking at 331s fitted with batteries

 

[childwallblues]

12 4 cars (48 cars) moving to Manc
12 3 cars (36 cars) moving to Leeds
Seems a bit uneven? (although as someone on the Manc side, I happily welcome this change, especially since it'll let me see the /1s and tick them off)

12 4 cars (48 cars) moving to Manc
12 3 cars (36 cars) moving to Leeds
Seems a bit uneven? (although as someone on the Manc side, I happily welcome this change, especially since it'll let me see the /1s and tick them off)

Liverpool-Wigan/Blackpool needs 4 cars hence it being dominated by the 319s. 3 cars is too small and 6 cars are too long for most platforms.

 

[Caaardiff]

If CAF can offer the right product, will the DFT give any preference to CAF in favour of keeping the Newport assembly plant open? Therefore protecting UK jobs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If CAF can offer the right product, will the DFT give any preference to CAF in favour of keeping the Newport assembly plant open? Therefore protecting UK jobs.

Not if it's a fight with Newton Aycliffe or Derby (who can fabricate bodyshells locally, unlike CAF).
Manufacturing subsidies are also an issue even under WTO rules.
Also remember Bombardier were marked down compared to Siemens for the class 700 order, because they had more precarious finances (ie they could not borrow the money needed for production as cheaply as Siemens).
The decision is not just about jobs.

 

[Trainbike46]

If CAF can offer the right product, will the DFT give any preference to CAF in favour of keeping the Newport assembly plant open? Therefore protecting UK jobs.

Also, Newport will likely stay open regardless, as CAF was intending to do manufacture of units for other countries there, so as long as that stays the case, CAF newport is relatively insulated from UK order volumes

 

[cnjb8]

Not if it's a fight with Newton Aycliffe or Derby (who can fabricate bodyshells locally, unlike CAF).
Manufacturing subsidies are also an issue even under WTO rules.
Also remember Bombardier were marked down compared to Siemens for the class 700 order, because they had more precarious finances (ie they could not borrow the money needed for production as cheaply as Siemens).
The decision is not just about jobs.

Would Siemens not be able to build this order at Goole should they be successful?

 

[AJDesiro]

Would Siemens not be able to build this order at Goole should they be successful?

They have the LU orders to keep them going for now, a year from now Derby won’t have any work, and I’d imagine Newton Aycliffe will have almost run out of work by then. Hopefully the various rumours for new fleet orders come to fruition, otherwise we will start to see job losses.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would Siemens not be able to build this order at Goole should they be successful?

Possibly, but Goole is just an assembly plant I think, like CAF at Newport.
But Siemens could build them elsewhere, like Hitachi did the 80x, producing the same train at Kasado and Pistoia as well as Newton Aycliffe.

 

[Trainbike46]

They have the LU orders to keep them going for now, a year from now Derby won’t have any work, and I’d imagine Newton Aycliffe will have almost run out of work by then. Hopefully the various rumours for new fleet orders come to fruition, otherwise we will start to see job losses.

Both Derby and Newton Aycliffe have HS2 orders coming up, so won't shut, but may reduce the number of workers if no other orders come in

 

[Pacco]

Whatever is chosen for whatever practical and political reason, it should attempt level boarding and future proofed traction, not just Aventras with a new skin. It's a chance to change train travel for a huge area of the UK.

 

[Meerkat]

Does anyone think Stadler is a politically realistic option?
Particularly as there will be no hiding behind a private operator and pretending the DfT have no say.

 

[Mollman]

Does anyone think Stadler is a politically realistic option?
Particularly as there will be no hiding behind a private operator and pretending the DfT have no say.

They are if the politicians want a quick win as they would be offering a proven design already cleared for UK use.

 

[skyhigh]

Does anyone think Stadler is a politically realistic option?
Particularly as there will be no hiding behind a private operator and pretending the DfT have no say.

I don't see why not, particularly if they're the only bidder who offers a level boarding option.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone think Stadler is a politically realistic option?
Particularly as there will be no hiding behind a private operator and pretending the DfT have no say.

It will be an open tender.
The best offer, against the Northern spec, wins, assuming it can be financed.
Outside the DfT, lefty Merseytravel bought Stadler, and so did Nexus.
Manchester Metrolink bought Bombardier (now Alstom) trams.
None of these had any significant UK content or assembly.