Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[daveo]

"..... would welcome a FLIRT on my line."

I'm sure there are more comfortable places for you romantic dalliances

 

[stan claire]

Few things:
First: any new EMUs should be 4 cars no if no buts.

Second: I agree that if this tender becomes an order then the 323s will be replaced along with the sprinters, as next year the 323s reach 30 years of service life. However I feel the 323s will be the 2nd to last EMUs Northern will replace. (Unless the condition of the 333s decreases rapidly)

Third: one station you missed that would need platforms extending is Stoke on Trent as Northern use the bay platform there to park a unit once it comes off the hourly shuttle service.

Finally: I do think Stadler will win this order if the tender becomes an order, given Stadler have already built Bi-Mode commuter trains for GA.

I don't get why they didn't order 331s just as a 4 car fleet to begin with. I'm assuming they didn't build them with doubling 3-car units in mind either and had that idea later on because of them not having interconnecting gangways.

Agreed. 323s should go with the rest of the older fleet - they aren't the oldest but they sure are getting to that age now. Didn't a 323 catch fire at Wilmslow that time? Or was that for a different reason unrelated to the equipment?

Stoke is another one of those Bolton situations. Platform 3 can only fit a 3 car 323 from what I can remember, so if 4 car EMUs were introduced and they extended the platform it's got to either go into the grade II listed station building or over a junction which would mean a line closure and a rebuild of the track layout. I doubt they would want to do that so they may well keep the 331s or 323s on that route

Well I arrived at my destination 60 minutes late yesterday due to a fault with one of the ex-Anglia 156s, so I can't say the same.

Probably how badly maintained they used to be. I wouldn't be surprised if they were one of the first to go they sound absolutely awful

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

Class 777 - as EMUs only, their introduction has not been without problems, and the battery capability is untested.

They are in the process of testing the 777s on battery to Headbolt Lane, however this is far from a long distance trial

 

[Mamorin]

Stoke is another one of those Bolton situations. Platform 3 can only fit a 3 car 323 from what I can remember, so if 4 car EMUs were introduced and they extended the platform it's got to either go into the grade II listed station building or over a junction which would mean a line closure and a rebuild of the track layout. I doubt they would want to do that so they may well keep the 331s or 323s on that route

A 319 can fit into the bay at stoke but its a squeeze, can the bay not be extended as to reach the same end as platform 2?

I do feel that stoke stoppers will end up be the last services the 323s will work before they are retired.

Didn't a 323 catch fire at Wilmslow that time? Or was that for a different reason unrelated to the equipment?

I think the fire was caused by a build up of grease around the brakes or something iirc.

 

[stan claire]

A 319 can fit into the bay at stoke but its a squeeze, can the bay not be extended as to reach the same end as platform 2?

I do feel that stoke stoppers will end up be the last services the 323s will work before they are retired.

It's possible but I doubt NR would want to do that for such a short extension. It's more likely that platform 3 would be used for anything that could fit in there and the rest could use a siding to the south of the station to reverse before reentering service to Piccadilly. Wouldn't be a bad idea as the Northerns at Stoke currently sit in the station for around 15-20 minutes.

What about the lines that are currently operated by 319s - which the ex WMT 323s are meant to be replacing? Will these be changed to only 323s on Crewe/Stoke - Picc and Airport - Lime Street and to 331s on Liverpool - Wigan/Blackpool North? What about the Wigan - Bolton electrification too?

 

[Whistler40145]

It's possible but I doubt NR would want to do that for such a short extension. It's more likely that platform 3 would be used for anything that could fit in there and the rest could use a siding to the south of the station to reverse before reentering service to Piccadilly. Wouldn't be a bad idea as the Northerns at Stoke currently sit in the station for around 15-20 minutes.

What about the lines that are currently operated by 319s - which the ex WMT 323s are meant to be replacing? Will these be changed to only 323s on Crewe/Stoke - Picc and Airport - Lime Street and to 331s on Liverpool - Wigan/Blackpool North? What about the Wigan - Bolton electrification too?

319s definitely work Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western/Blackpool North and replaced by 331s. Don’t forget that the 331/0 and 331/1 sets are swapping over, bringing 4 car sets to the North West.

323s and 331s will share duties on the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services

 

[jonesy3001]

The 323s will be used on the stalybridge to wigan line when the electrification works have been done then shared work with the 331s on the other lines.
Got a feeling by the time the WMT 323s transfer to northern might have the "new" trains on the rails.

 

[Mamorin]

What about the lines that are currently operated by 319s - which the ex WMT 323s are meant to be replacing? Will these be changed to only 323s on Crewe/Stoke - Picc and Airport - Lime Street and to 331s on Liverpool - Wigan/Blackpool North? What about the Wigan - Bolton electrification too?

The 319s will be replaced by the 4 car 331s which are going back West in exchange for 12 3 cars going to the East.

 

[Whistler40145]

The 319s will be replaced by the 4 car 331s which are going back West in exchange for 12 3 cars going to the East.

Probably see less double sets running in the future

 

[Mamorin]

The 323s will be used on the stalybridge to wigan line when the electrification works have been done then shared work with the 331s on the other lines.
Got a feeling by the time the WMT 323s transfer to northern might have the "new" trains on the rails.

WMT 323s are due to go to Northern next year. This should happen as by then enough 5 car 730s may have been built and tested.

Apparently the WMT 323s are going to be used as 6 car services, this will cover for the 3 car 331s going east, given the 4 cars that come west will only work current 319 routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

Probably see less double sets running in the future

Less double 331s in the West yes, but more double 323s.

 

[northwichcat]

Probably how badly maintained they used to be. I wouldn't be surprised if they were one of the first to go they sound absolutely awful

I have noticed how Northern haven't done anything internally to them, almost as if they are a temporary solution. They still retain the old seat covers and haven't been fitted with USB charging points.

 

[Mamorin]

I have noticed how Northern haven't done anything internally to them, almost as if they are a temporary solution. They still retain the old seat covers and haven't been fitted with USB charging points.

All of Northern's 323s I've been on have USB charging points. Northern's 323s are getting USB charging points as part of the "Digital Upgrades" I think.

As for seat covers no need to change them as Northern have kept the old Arriva Rail North branding, just without the "by Arriva" bit.

 

[Whistler40145]

Presumably if BiMode or Tri Mode units are going to work the Barrow/Windermere/Southport services, switching power en route

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Class 756 is not in service yet so the answer is no.

So Stadler is roughly on the page for this kind of order, assuming the tri-mode capability is proved, and the rest are nowhere close?

 

[Whistler40145]

So Stadler is roughly on the page for this kind of order, assuming the tri-mode capability is proved, and the rest are nowhere close?

It seems to be moving away from CAF as they’re not designed any bi or tri mode units

 

[js1000]

This is an interesting development although difficult to know what to make of it as there are a lot variables at play though. Northern desperately needs fleet standardisation, the Class 15Xs are coming to the end of their life, environmentally they are polluting compared with newer diesel trains and bi-modes, general Election on the horizon etc. My thinking is it's just exploratory to get a price on how much replacing the 15Xs would actually cost.

 

[jonesy3001]

All of Northern's 323s I've been on have USB charging points. Northern's 323s are getting USB charging points as part of the "Digital Upgrades" I think.

As for seat covers no need to change them as Northern have kept the old Arriva Rail North branding, just without the "by Arriva" bit.

The WMT 323s that are moving north are also getting their mods done.

 

[Trainbike46]

80x is overkill for Northern (and regional trains generally), and the battery capability is unproven.

I was answering the specific question of what manufacturers have experience with multimode (diesel/electric bimode, BEMU and diesel/battery/electric trimode) units. As far as I'm aware, that is limited to Hitachi and Stadler. I agree that the 80x is not suitable for northern regional routes.

Stadler 755 are diesel/electric bi-modes but have they been used on regular bi-mode services switching modes en-route or are they essentially being used as DMU replacements?

On Norwich Stansted 755s switch power just after Norwich, and at Ely. Within Norwich station and on Ely-Stansted they operate on OHLE, between Norwich and Ely they use diesel.
Similarly, Ipswich-Cambridge and (Colchester-)Ipswich-Peterborough are electric on (Colchester-)Ipswich-Stowmarket, using diesel elsewhere.
They also occasionally deputise on the mainline using OHLE. The 755s are used as real bimodes, switching modes en-route.

Class 756 - has the battery capability been used in service yet? Or even the bi-mode capability of switching between diesel and electric?

756 is not in service yet, hence my reference to them being in service soon. They have been used for testing, and data from that could be used to inform other orders including this one.

Class 777 - as EMUs only, their introduction has not been without problems, and the battery capability is untested.

All 777s are BEMUs, though some only have a small battery so that they can de-electrify the depot and improve safety. The battery will have been part of acceptance testing, and data from that could be used to inform future orders including this one.

Before piling into a large tri-mode order, I'm just very sceptical of the capability of UK TOCs to operate multi-mode services successfully with current technology and operating methods.
The manufacturers, and Network Rail, are also feeling their way.

Multi-mode services are already operating across the network, both regional units (755s) and Intercity trains (80x), so I believe your scepticism is unfounded. The last diesel only units have already been ordered, so the choices are effectively between getting multimodes, a massive speed-up in electrification, and continuing with the 15x for longer.

 

[JacobWrenn]

The last diesel only units have already been ordered, so the choices are effectively between getting multimodes, a massive speed-up in electrification, and continuing with the 15x for longer.

Is this official DfT policy that no new diesel only units will be ordered?

 

[Trainbike46]

So Stadler is roughly on the page for this kind of order, assuming the tri-mode capability is proved, and the rest are nowhere close?

If experience with multi-mode regional units in the UK is a requirement, stadler is undeniably the furthest ahead, followed by hitachi (who could probably apply lessons from their 80x to a regional style unit, or something like a 385). However, I suspect all manufacturers will be making designs.

It seems to be moving away from CAF as they’re not designed any bi or tri mode units

CAF claims to have a bimode design of their civity family, which the 331 and 19x are also part of

 

[Lewisham2221]

I have noticed how Northern haven't done anything internally to them, almost as if they are a temporary solution. They still retain the old seat covers and haven't been fitted with USB charging points.

All of Northern's 323s I've been on have USB charging points. Northern's 323s are getting USB charging points as part of the "Digital Upgrades" I think.

As for seat covers no need to change them as Northern have kept the old Arriva Rail North branding, just without the "by Arriva" bit.

I believe @northwichcat was referring to 156s rather than 323s

 

[Trainbike46]

Is this official DfT policy that no new diesel only units will be ordered?

Not explicit policy at present, but any new diesel-only units would have to be retired before 2050 because of the legally binding carbon budget for the year 2050. All diesel units will have to be retired by then, so ordering new diesel units now guarantees a short life, which increases cost whether you buy outright or lease them.

It's also important to remember that this tender specifies all units either need to be decarbonised from the start, or designed to make decarbonisation later in life easy, so you can see this realisation working through in this tender.

 

[northwichcat]

All of Northern's 323s I've been on have USB charging points. Northern's 323s are getting USB charging points as part of the "Digital Upgrades" I think.

As for seat covers no need to change them as Northern have kept the old Arriva Rail North branding, just without the "by Arriva" bit.

I believe @northwichcat was referring to 156s rather than 323s

Indeed. I'm not aware of the Anglia region having any 323s to cascade.

 

[Whistler40145]

Indeed. I'm not aware of the Anglia region having any 323s to cascade.

Definitely not, only WMR and Northern operate 323s

 

[stan claire]

319s definitely work Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western/Blackpool North and replaced by 331s. Don’t forget that the 331/0 and 331/1 sets are swapping over, bringing 4 car sets to the North West.

323s and 331s will share duties on the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services

When are the /0s and /1s swapping and why 323s on Blackpool to Airport instead of putting the 323s on Liverpool - Blackpool and both 3 and 4 car 331s on Airport - Blackpool? There's a near 10 mile 100mph section between Bolton and Salford Crescent which if switched to 323 operation would mean longer journey times - which was pretty much the full purpose of the Manchester - Preston electrification. 323s have denser seating capacity (because of 3+2 config) but 331s have wider doorways for more standing room and also yes, as much as I hate it, more luggage space for services to the airport if the seats in the doorways aren't being used. Using a 323 on such service would just mean longer journey times and suitcases in the way of the doors because there are no luggage racks and the 323s weren't designed with airport services in mind. People won't necessarily need such an amount of luggage space on Blackpool to Liverpool as it doesn't really connect with any major or international destinations, whereas the Manchester service connects with Manchester Airport (the busiest airport outside of London) and Manchester Piccadilly (a major interchange between many services) which would just make more sense with the 331s being built with this in mind. Luggage from flights will have nowhere to go at peak times and end up blocking the doors and the wheelchair spaces, which when a disabled person needs to use it will have nowhere else to go. Not to mention that 323s have no aircon which compared to 319s, 331s are amazing for aircon. Wouldn't want to be packed into a crowded 323 in the summer.

The 323s will be used on the stalybridge to wigan line when the electrification works have been done

Pretty sure they're planning 323 and the occasional 331 on Stalybridge to Wigan North Western and 769s on Southport to Oxford Road. They could end up starting the Oxford Road service at North Western too though and hopefully make it end somewhere more sensible like Alderley Edge like it used to or Stalybridge, Hazel Grove or even Manchester Airport.

The 319s will be replaced by the 4 car 331s which are going back West in exchange for 12 3 cars going to the East.

Any info on what unit numbers are being sent to the east?

Probably see less double sets running in the future

Seems like Northern doing what they do best, substituting capacity to make everything cheaper for them but still raising fares

Apparently the WMT 323s are going to be used as 6 car services, this will cover for the 3 car 331s going east, given the 4 cars that come west will only work current 319 routes.

331s to 323s will be a massive downgrade on the Airport line. 4 car 331s on Liverpool to Blackpool make the platform extensions at just about every station seem useless.

I have noticed how Northern haven't done anything internally to them, almost as if they are a temporary solution. They still retain the old seat covers and haven't been fitted with USB charging points.

I think that was the plan for them, haven't they ordered battery 195s too?

All of Northern's 323s I've been on have USB charging points. Northern's 323s are getting USB charging points as part of the "Digital Upgrades" I think.

As for seat covers no need to change them as Northern have kept the old Arriva Rail North branding, just without the "by Arriva" bit.

They mean the 156 units from the East Midlands. Plug sockets on the 323s would be more useful than USBs, as someone who exclusively uses USB-C chargers.

Presumably if BiMode or Tri Mode units are going to work the Barrow/Windermere/Southport services, switching power en route

Windermere was meant to be 769 operated after the electrification of that line was cancelled, but when Northern ordered the 195s they decided to operate them on that line instead even though that meant they'd use diesel under the wires for just under 2 hours between Manchester Airport and Oxenholme, but it makes sense now they operate doubled 195s

 

[Energy]

Class 756 - has the battery capability been used in service yet? Or even the bi-mode capability of switching between diesel and electric?

Bi mode capability is the same as the 755s. The range should be good going by the class 777s delivering over 80 miles which smaller batteries (320kwh for a 777, 480/600kwh for a 3/4 car 756). The engine on the 756 seems to have been ordered due to the range being more unknown (or thought to be shorter) at the time as the operation would depend on going off wires while the 777s are only off the 3rd rail for short extensions for now.

It varies by route. On the Ipswich-Cambridge/Peterborough routes they start in AC mode and switch to diesel. Likewise on the Norwich-Stansted Airport service they switch from AC to diesel at Ely.

All routes change to electric to enter Norwich.

I don't get why they didn't order 331s just as a 4 car fleet to begin with. I'm assuming they didn't build them with doubling 3-car units in mind either and had that idea later on because of them not having interconnecting gangways.

Always did. Lack of interconnecting gangways doesn't seem to be a big concern for Northern, the 323s, 319s, many 150s and all pacers lacked them and worked in multiple.

CAF claims to have a bimode design of their civity family, which the 331 and 19x are also part of

They are producing bi mode civitys for Australia.

I think that was the plan for them, haven't they ordered battery 195s too?

Talked about yet never ordered. They would have been 195s with batteries used for regen and to further boost acceleration but the batteries wouldn't be charged from OHLE. The price back from CAF was too high.

 

[Mamorin]

Always did. Lack of interconnecting gangways doesn't seem to be a big concern for Northern, the 323s, 319s, many 150s and all pacers lacked them and worked in multiple.

The fact the the 150s, 319s, and 323s don't have end gangways and why the pacers never had them is not Northern's fault that is how BR ordered those units. Hence why Northern don't seem concerned about those units not having end gangways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

When are the /0s and /1s swapping and why 323s on Blackpool to Airport instead of putting the 323s on Liverpool - Blackpool and both 3 and 4 car 331s on Airport - Blackpool? There's a near 10 mile 100mph section between Bolton and Salford Crescent which if switched to 323 operation would mean longer journey times - which was pretty much the full purpose of the Manchester - Preston electrification. 323s have denser seating capacity (because of 3+2 config) but 331s have wider doorways for more standing room and also yes, as much as I hate it, more luggage space for services to the airport if the seats in the doorways aren't being used. Using a 323 on such service would just mean longer journey times and suitcases in the way of the doors because there are no luggage racks and the 323s weren't designed with airport services in mind. People won't necessarily need such an amount of luggage space on Blackpool to Liverpool as it doesn't really connect with any major or international destinations, whereas the Manchester service connects with Manchester Airport (the busiest airport outside of London) and Manchester Piccadilly (a major interchange between many services) which would just make more sense with the 331s being built with this in mind. Luggage from flights will have nowhere to go at peak times and end up blocking the doors and the wheelchair spaces, which when a disabled person needs to use it will have nowhere else to go. Not to mention that 323s have no aircon which compared to 319s, 331s are amazing for aircon. Wouldn't want to be packed into a crowded 323 in the summer.

Pretty sure they're planning 323 and the occasional 331 on Stalybridge to Wigan North Western and 769s on Southport to Oxford Road. They could end up starting the Oxford Road service at North Western too though and hopefully make it end somewhere more sensible like Alderley Edge like it used to or Stalybridge, Hazel Grove or even Manchester Airport.

Any info on what unit numbers are being sent to the east?

Seems like Northern doing what they do best, substituting capacity to make everything cheaper for them but still raising fares

331s to 323s will be a massive downgrade on the Airport line. 4 car 331s on Liverpool to Blackpool make the platform extensions at just about every station seem useless.

I think that was the plan for them, haven't they ordered battery 195s too?

They mean the 156 units from the East Midlands. Plug sockets on the 323s would be more useful than USBs, as someone who exclusively uses USB-C chargers.

Windermere was meant to be 769 operated after the electrification of that line was cancelled, but when Northern ordered the 195s they decided to operate them on that line instead even though that meant they'd use diesel under the wires for just under 2 hours between Manchester Airport and Oxenholme, but it makes sense now they operate doubled 195s

Don't know when the 4 cars are coming west just yet. As for 323s and the airport 3 323s were built with luggage racks when built (the luggage racks removed during the PRM refurb) so they were designed and built with airport shuttles in mind.

323s were worked hard on the old Piccadilly to Airport shuttle service.

Odds are most 323s will remain on the same routes they work now and any extra routes will be commuter routes which is 323s were designed for.

 

[jonesy3001]

The fact the the 150s, 319s, and 323s don't have end gangways and why the pacers never had them is not Northern's fault that is how BR ordered those units. Hence why Northern don't seem concerned about those units not having end gangways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==


Don't know when the 4 cars are coming west just yet. As for 323s and the airport 3 323s were built with luggage racks when built (the luggage racks removed during the PRM refurb) so they were designed and built with airport shuttles in mind.

323s were worked hard on the old Piccadilly to Airport shuttle service.

Odds are most 323s will remain on the same routes they work now and any extra routes will be commuter routes which is 323s were designed for.

The 331 swaps start in October/November.
12 for 12.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The 331 swaps start in October/November.
12 for 12.

12 4 cars (48 cars) moving to Manc
12 3 cars (36 cars) moving to Leeds
Seems a bit uneven? (although as someone on the Manc side, I happily welcome this change, especially since it'll let me see the /1s and tick them off)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It’s a bloody big order whatever. Let’s hope they ask for delivery at a sensible rate. 2 per week for 5 years.

 

[stan claire]

12 4 cars (48 cars) moving to Manc
12 3 cars (36 cars) moving to Leeds
Seems a bit uneven? (although as someone on the Manc side, I happily welcome this change, especially since it'll let me see the /1s and tick them off)

Went on a /1 from Leeds to Wakefield and certainly aren't as busy as a single /0 from Deansgate to Buckshaw. Hopefully they'll run double /0s and single /1s instead of single /0s, would be better capacity but hoping they don't steal my beloved 331029