Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[Versa274]

I have a feeling this order will be designated class 756 with gangwayed cab ends

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I have a feeling this order will be designated class 756 with gangwayed cab ends

will it be 756 even if it's a FLIRT? 756s have batteries and it seems quite tiny changes get different classes (e.g. aren't 802s basically 800s with different engines?).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

will it be 756 even if it's a FLIRT? 756s have batteries and it seems quite tiny changes get different classes (e.g. aren't 802s basically 800s with different engines?).

No. 800s were specifically procured via the Intercity Express Programme.

 

[stan claire]

Future phases (other than the initial order under phase 1) may be built directly as electric multiple units or battery-electric multiple units.

I'm hoping that Northern/DfT go with Stadler for this one. 745s for fully electrified routes (maybe 3, 4, 5 car sets), 755s for lines like Southport to Stalybridge or Oxford Road (because I know it will be absolutely outrageous for the people of Southport if they do not have a direct train to Castlefield) in 3 and 4 car sets and potentially 756 units if they wanted battery. That way they don't have to wait even longer for testing to be done before introduction (like Avanti could've done ordering 801s and 802s instead of 807s and 805s) and drivers could be trained on the GA and TFW fleet if they can do that.
745s could be used on Manchester Airport/Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool North services, especially if they added an extra half hourly Blackpool or possibly Lancaster to Manchester Victoria service using 3+3 coach 745s (not to Castlefield as that's congested enough), or possibly 8 (4+4) sets as most stations just need minor adjustments to fit 8 coach trains, and Buckshaw Parkway was even built with this in mind (https://www.railengineer.co.uk/buck...omes-the-latest-addition-to-the-rail-network/ not up to date), and would give the line more capacity to cope with peak times (something the 2tph with no support unlike Wigan/Liverpool/Atherton - Vic does NOT do well) and if the 745s have luggage racks then they could be made use of on the Airport trains which on the 331s they expect people to put their suitcases in the vestibules next to the sideways seats which are an absolute life saver... very useful when the train's busy but you don't want to sit next to someone! The only concern I have with the 745s is the 1 door per coach situation, with only one door at peak times will not be fun getting on (unless they somehow convince stadler to build them with 1/3 and 2/3 doors...?)
The only stations I can see being an issue are Chorley (the installation of lifts might make it awkward to fit the platform extensions towards Manchester, can't towards Buckshaw as there's a road bridge) and possibly Bolton, the station looks like it has the right length platforms but if it doesn't then it's a bit awkward because junction one side, bridge pillar on the other. Lostock should be fine but would have to be extended towards the north of the station as the Southport lines merge to the south.
An even service between Victoria and Castlefield would be better than the current 2tph to Manchester Airport, as you could say both stations have a different market. The Castlefield line mainly serves the business districts of Manchester, and Victoria mainly serves the shopping districts (such as the Arndale) and the Northern Quarter, both around a 5 minute walk from Victoria station but a 10 minute tram ride from Piccadilly and Deansgate. The services are almost guaranteed to be pretty much empty from Piccadilly to the Airport, even if the train is full and standing from Bolton (as usually is the case), it'll almost always be quiet from Picc.
Manchester Airport to Windermere services really should be bi-modes or BEMUs seeing as they run on diesel under the wires for over an hour and a half, and they were planned to be 769s before Northern Connect. They could theoretically use the same fast charge functionality that GWR are trialling on their 230s. Run on electric to Oxenholme, 25 minute wait outside Oxenholme could be used to charge the batteries, switch power mode at Oxenholme station and run battery to Windermere and back. 20 miles and 40 minutes return should be no issue with regards to the range of the batteries, and they can then recharge using the wires at Oxenholme before going to Windermere and back a few times, then returning to the airport.

It sounds like the units will initially be bi-mode with diesel plus 25kV or battery, with the capability of having diesel removed through conversion to fully electric or further batteries added.

Similar to the 802/2s on TPE then, where they plan on removing the diesel engines once the TRU is completed?

Wouldn't 450 units be essentially the entire Northern fleet?

it's a hundred units more than the entire Northern Rail fleet, so I suppose it could be some sort of neo-IEP project? 450 units comprising multiple carriages is a lot.

I think they're going to do what TFW did and replace (almost) everything, spare the 195s and 331s as they're still new and a waste of money if they're replaced so early. Maybe they're also planning on introducing additional services or increasing service frequency, hopefully more on Manchester to Preston which gets very overcrowded sometimes, even as a 6 car due to the frequency

Clearly looking to replace some EMUs too

They'll probably end up using the new stock to replace the 323s and support the 331s. If they're ordering more new fleet than they have currently there's gonna be enough EMUs to replace 323s, all 331 services doubled and maybe some additional services

Northern's 2-car needs can, as intended, be satisfied by way of a cascade of 2-car 195s to lines like Ormskirk and Colne.

It wouldn't be a bad idea if the services were timetabled so it's a 2 car 195 from Ormskirk to Preston, 2 car 195 Colne to Preston and then join at Preston and form the Blackpool South service, killing two birds with one stone providing extra capacity to Blackpool (especially Pleasure Beach considering how busy it is during school holidays) and isn't too long for platforms on the branch lines. The Ormskirk service could easily travel there and back in the time it takes another 195 to show up from Colne, with a longer dwell time if required.

If Stadler a 3-section unit would be possible which is around 2-car length, though. More likely existing 2-car 195s will be sufficient for Northern's branch line needs, though - that was the whole reason 2s and 3s rather than 3s and 4s were ordered, was it not?

It does make sense, the 4 car units would be pointless too if the 195/0s can be doubled up until they can be released to shorter lines. Serves two important purposes.

It seems to be open on vehicle length, and could even be articulated. Looks like electric units, but initially with option to have diesel power packs, that can later become straight EMUs or battery EMUs


My money is on version of Stadler Flirt, or Siemens Verve (the updated class 385 used in Scotland).

I'm assuming you mean the 380 Desiros (as 385s are Hitachi AT200) but either of the three would be a good choice. The 385s on SR are good trains (aesthetically and in terms of ride quality), very spacious, the 380s also are very nice, good seats, I like the amount of tip-up seats next to the accessible toilet which some can be used if there is or isn't a wheelchair onboard. From what I've heard the flirts have good ride quality as the diesel engines are in that small central car that the 755s have, would be a lot better ride quality than any unit Northern currently operates

In terms of platform heights across Northern, how many are suitable for level boarding? There's certainly some big steps up across the network.

I know the (recently upgraded) platforms at Salford Central are just about level with a 158. It's a little bit of a step for the 150s and 156s. I can imagine most platform heights are just about equal so it should be no problem having a low-floor fleet (like the FLIRT with the retractable step) with level boarding at most stations, or it shouldn't take long to raise platforms to all be the same height. Sherburn in Elmet and Blaydon are both stations I know for a fact are a definite no.

I think they would be likely to flush all the Class 195 (and the CAF EMU who's number escapes me now) to someone else and try to move Northern to an entirely uniform fleet.

I doubt they would (not at this time anyway) as they were only just introduced less than 5 years ago and would be a waste of money on training, ordering the stock etc to replace them at this point in time.

The 2-car 195s were specifically built so they could later be cascaded onto the quiet branch lines Northern have like Ormskirk, Headbolt Lane, the middle bit of the Cumbrian Coast, Morecambe etc - this is why Class 195 wasn't a 3 and 4-car build. These new units are unlikely to be shorter than 3x24m due to the amount of space underneath needed for both AC and diesel kit (unless they're Stadlers) and so putting them on those low demand diesel branches is a bit of a waste.

170s maybe, maybe not (it may make more sense to consolidate those on one TOC i.e. EMR as they aren't good on the stopping services Northern use them for - these routes are more suitable for 195s).

Blackburn to HBL would be a lot better if it was 195s over 150s. If they did double up 2 car 195s on that route the ASDO would come in handy at short platforms such as Orrell, Upholland and I believe Rainford... when I went to Upholland one time the conductor had to do the emergency door release to let me off (even though the front unit was fully in the platform) because 150s don't have the ASDO like the 195s do have.
Ideally the 170s should be put on Wigan to Leeds or Blackpool to York, a route which they suit much more than 158s or 195s, or sent to EMR like the rest of them have been (except SR).

Don't encourage them to get rid of the 323s!

Despite their age, the 323s are still going strong however from the order I'm guessing Northern want a fully new fleet, probably sparing the CAF fleet.

There's no chance of Colne being anything other than 2.DMU for a very long time, if not forever. Same with the middle bit of the Cumbrian Coast, Bentham, Morecambe, the S&C at quiet times and so on, and I'm sure there are plenty on the East side of Northern too that I'm less familiar with, e.g. Barton-on-Humber.

There are a few 156+156 paths on Lancaster/Barrow - Carlisle for later today in the evening (13/08/23) but it's mostly single 156 rest of the time. Also saw a 156+156 on Lancaster - Morecambe last night but that was later on. I don't think the platforms at Bare Lane can fit a double 156. S&C is just one of those lines where it depends what you get allocated on the day. Barton on Humber line was transferred to EMR in 2021 but before that I believe it would've been 153s before being transferred?

Since they've not long opened the new maintenance shed at newton heath I think they'll stick to CAF.

I mean they could always use the new shed with both the CAF and the new units, they don't necessarily have to just use one class

It sounds like a job for Stadler, but it is the one without a UK assembly capability, and it is not short of European orders for its current range.
The procurement notice doesn't seem to ask for manufacturer's maintenance, which would increase the attraction for them.

They could definitely do a Hitachi with their IEP construction depot (I believe someone else also mentioned that) and build it at an easily accessible location on the Northern network, such as at Preston - easy access to multiple mainlines, not at somewhere already packed with enough depots like Manchester has (ardwick, international, longsight, stockport etc) but could theoretically be an extension to Dock Street sidings, not in the way of the WCML or anything important

I think the urgency relates to knowing what type of train will be available in the future, to plan for infrastructure enhancements. At present Northern operate paired up Spinters with rear carriages locked out-of-use due to short platform lengths. They'll be a poor business case for Network Rail extending a 75m platform to 92m, if Northern will instead be using trains with shorter carriages or selective door operation in a few years time.

Newer units will definitely have ASDO of some sort, but if they do extend the platforms then just don't do it like Adlington Lancs did and extend the platforms but people can't wait in them? Worst idea possible honestly

How many of these short platforms are actually short, as opposed to being part of a longer platform where part has fallen out of use

I think that's what they're doing at Leyland currently. Not necessarily extensions but rebuilding the disused part that currently can't fit a 6 car 331 and triggers the ASDO.

You don't understand Northern's 'logic'. Why run a 4 car 150 one hour and a 2 car 156 the next when you can run a 150+156 formation and a single 150? Then if there's a sports event on have passengers squashed like sardines in one of the class 156 carriages, while the other is locked out-of-use.

The problem we have in the north is the infrastructure and available rolling stock decide the capacity and service frequency, not the demand.

Northern have logic worse than my parents who think I decide if my train is cancelled. Cancel half of the trains in the day, and it's a Sunday so 1tph, then the one that actually turns up is a 3 coach and full and standing as a result. And it's not that there's no seats, it's just people need to make sure their water bottles are comfy (this actually happened)
If they kept the 319s they could've easily restored the Preston - Manchester Victoria service once the WMT 323s come in and replace them on the other lines. But they won't because the people of the Bolton to Preston line don't matter. We've got electric trains, just a matter of if you can get on them or not because there's no additional services during rush hour!

 

[Energy]

Similar to the 802/2s on TPE then, where they plan on removing the diesel engines once the TRU is completed?

Sounds like it, with some being battery from the outset.

I doubt they would (not at this time anyway) as they were only just introduced less than 5 years ago and would be a waste of money on training, ordering the stock etc to replace them at this point in time.

195s and 331s aren't being replaced, confirmed on another thread.

Despite their age, the 323s are still going strong however from the order I'm guessing Northern want a fully new fleet, probably sparing the CAF fleet.

Yeah, the 323s got their drive changed to IGBT Alstom kit a while back so they've got some life left. I'd imagine that the 323s will be the last of the Northern fleet to be replaced, if not the 333s.

They could definitely do a Hitachi with their IEP construction depot (I believe someone else also mentioned that) and build it at an easily accessible location on the Northern network, such as at Preston - easy access to multiple mainlines, not at somewhere already packed with enough depots like Manchester has (ardwick, international, longsight, stockport etc) but could theoretically be an extension to Dock Street sidings, not in the way of the WCML or anything important

The IEPs were a train supply agreement in which Hitachi would supply a certain number of units and would be responsible for maintenance. Northern is just supply of rolling stock and spares.

 

[Mamorin]

I'm hoping that Northern/DfT go with Stadler for this one. 745s for fully electrified routes (maybe 3, 4, 5 car sets), 755s for lines like Southport to Stalybridge or Oxford Road (because I know it will be absolutely outrageous for the people of Southport if they do not have a direct train to Castlefield) in 3 and 4 car sets and potentially 756 units if they wanted battery. That way they don't have to wait even longer for testing to be done before introduction (like Avanti could've done ordering 801s and 802s instead of 807s and 805s) and drivers could be trained on the GA and TFW fleet if they can do that.
745s could be used on Manchester Airport/Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool North services, especially if they added an extra half hourly Blackpool or possibly Lancaster to Manchester Victoria service using 3+3 coach 745s (not to Castlefield as that's congested enough), or possibly 8 (4+4) sets as most stations just need minor adjustments to fit 8 coach trains, and Buckshaw Parkway was even built with this in mind (https://www.railengineer.co.uk/buck...omes-the-latest-addition-to-the-rail-network/ not up to date), and would give the line more capacity to cope with peak times (something the 2tph with no support unlike Wigan/Liverpool/Atherton - Vic does NOT do well) and if the 745s have luggage racks then they could be made use of on the Airport trains which on the 331s they expect people to put their suitcases in the vestibules next to the sideways seats which are an absolute life saver... very useful when the train's busy but you don't want to sit next to someone! The only concern I have with the 745s is the 1 door per coach situation, with only one door at peak times will not be fun getting on (unless they somehow convince stadler to build them with 1/3 and 2/3 doors...?)
The only stations I can see being an issue are Chorley (the installation of lifts might make it awkward to fit the platform extensions towards Manchester, can't towards Buckshaw as there's a road bridge) and possibly Bolton, the station looks like it has the right length platforms but if it doesn't then it's a bit awkward because junction one side, bridge pillar on the other. Lostock should be fine but would have to be extended towards the north of the station as the Southport lines merge to the south.
An even service between Victoria and Castlefield would be better than the current 2tph to Manchester Airport, as you could say both stations have a different market. The Castlefield line mainly serves the business districts of Manchester, and Victoria mainly serves the shopping districts (such as the Arndale) and the Northern Quarter, both around a 5 minute walk from Victoria station but a 10 minute tram ride from Piccadilly and Deansgate. The services are almost guaranteed to be pretty much empty from Piccadilly to the Airport, even if the train is full and standing from Bolton (as usually is the case), it'll almost always be quiet from Picc.
Manchester Airport to Windermere services really should be bi-modes or BEMUs seeing as they run on diesel under the wires for over an hour and a half, and they were planned to be 769s before Northern Connect. They could theoretically use the same fast charge functionality that GWR are trialling on their 230s. Run on electric to Oxenholme, 25 minute wait outside Oxenholme could be used to charge the batteries, switch power mode at Oxenholme station and run battery to Windermere and back. 20 miles and 40 minutes return should be no issue with regards to the range of the batteries, and they can then recharge using the wires at Oxenholme before going to Windermere and back a few times, then returning to the airport.

Similar to the 802/2s on TPE then, where they plan on removing the diesel engines once the TRU is completed?

I think they're going to do what TFW did and replace (almost) everything, spare the 195s and 331s as they're still new and a waste of money if they're replaced so early. Maybe they're also planning on introducing additional services or increasing service frequency, hopefully more on Manchester to Preston which gets very overcrowded sometimes, even as a 6 car due to the frequency

They'll probably end up using the new stock to replace the 323s and support the 331s. If they're ordering more new fleet than they have currently there's gonna be enough EMUs to replace 323s, all 331 services doubled and maybe some additional services

It wouldn't be a bad idea if the services were timetabled so it's a 2 car 195 from Ormskirk to Preston, 2 car 195 Colne to Preston and then join at Preston and form the Blackpool South service, killing two birds with one stone providing extra capacity to Blackpool (especially Pleasure Beach considering how busy it is during school holidays) and isn't too long for platforms on the branch lines. The Ormskirk service could easily travel there and back in the time it takes another 195 to show up from Colne, with a longer dwell time if required.

It does make sense, the 4 car units would be pointless too if the 195/0s can be doubled up until they can be released to shorter lines. Serves two important purposes.

I'm assuming you mean the 380 Desiros (as 385s are Hitachi AT200) but either of the three would be a good choice. The 385s on SR are good trains (aesthetically and in terms of ride quality), very spacious, the 380s also are very nice, good seats, I like the amount of tip-up seats next to the accessible toilet which some can be used if there is or isn't a wheelchair onboard. From what I've heard the flirts have good ride quality as the diesel engines are in that small central car that the 755s have, would be a lot better ride quality than any unit Northern currently operates

I know the (recently upgraded) platforms at Salford Central are just about level with a 158. It's a little bit of a step for the 150s and 156s. I can imagine most platform heights are just about equal so it should be no problem having a low-floor fleet (like the FLIRT with the retractable step) with level boarding at most stations, or it shouldn't take long to raise platforms to all be the same height. Sherburn in Elmet and Blaydon are both stations I know for a fact are a definite no.

I doubt they would (not at this time anyway) as they were only just introduced less than 5 years ago and would be a waste of money on training, ordering the stock etc to replace them at this point in time.

Blackburn to HBL would be a lot better if it was 195s over 150s. If they did double up 2 car 195s on that route the ASDO would come in handy at short platforms such as Orrell, Upholland and I believe Rainford... when I went to Upholland one time the conductor had to do the emergency door release to let me off (even though the front unit was fully in the platform) because 150s don't have the ASDO like the 195s do have.
Ideally the 170s should be put on Wigan to Leeds or Blackpool to York, a route which they suit much more than 158s or 195s, or sent to EMR like the rest of them have been (except SR).

Despite their age, the 323s are still going strong however from the order I'm guessing Northern want a fully new fleet, probably sparing the CAF fleet.

There are a few 156+156 paths on Lancaster/Barrow - Carlisle for later today in the evening (13/08/23) but it's mostly single 156 rest of the time. Also saw a 156+156 on Lancaster - Morecambe last night but that was later on. I don't think the platforms at Bare Lane can fit a double 156. S&C is just one of those lines where it depends what you get allocated on the day. Barton on Humber line was transferred to EMR in 2021 but before that I believe it would've been 153s before being transferred?

I mean they could always use the new shed with both the CAF and the new units, they don't necessarily have to just use one class

They could definitely do a Hitachi with their IEP construction depot (I believe someone else also mentioned that) and build it at an easily accessible location on the Northern network, such as at Preston - easy access to multiple mainlines, not at somewhere already packed with enough depots like Manchester has (ardwick, international, longsight, stockport etc) but could theoretically be an extension to Dock Street sidings, not in the way of the WCML or anything important

Newer units will definitely have ASDO of some sort, but if they do extend the platforms then just don't do it like Adlington Lancs did and extend the platforms but people can't wait in them? Worst idea possible honestly

I think that's what they're doing at Leyland currently. Not necessarily extensions but rebuilding the disused part that currently can't fit a 6 car 331 and triggers the ASDO.

Northern have logic worse than my parents who think I decide if my train is cancelled. Cancel half of the trains in the day, and it's a Sunday so 1tph, then the one that actually turns up is a 3 coach and full and standing as a result. And it's not that there's no seats, it's just people need to make sure their water bottles are comfy (this actually happened)
If they kept the 319s they could've easily restored the Preston - Manchester Victoria service once the WMT 323s come in and replace them on the other lines. But they won't because the people of the Bolton to Preston line don't matter. We've got electric trains, just a matter of if you can get on them or not because there's no additional services during rush hour!

Few things:
First: any new EMUs should be 4 cars no if no buts.

Second: I agree that if this tender becomes an order then the 323s will be replaced along with the sprinters, as next year the 323s reach 30 years of service life. However I feel the 323s will be the 2nd to last EMUs Northern will replace. (Unless the condition of the 333s decreases rapidly)

Third: one station you missed that would need platforms extending is Stoke on Trent as Northern use the bay platform there to park a unit once it comes off the hourly shuttle service.

Finally: I do think Stadler will win this order if the tender becomes an order, given Stadler have already built Bi-Mode commuter trains for GA.

 

[Versa274]

will it be 756 even if it's a FLIRT? 756s have batteries and it seems quite tiny changes get different classes (e.g. aren't 802s basically 800s with different engines?).

Most likely.
I’m thinking that the Flirt will be the next new units for Northern but we will have to wait and see

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Which manufacturer has so far produced an affordable UK-spec EMU/DMU/battery train that demonstrably works?

 

[Geeves]

From my own small window on Northern world the 195s are performing as well as the rest of the fleet these days on a purely DMU front at least.

 

[cactustwirly]

will it be 756 even if it's a FLIRT? 756s have batteries and it seems quite tiny changes get different classes (e.g. aren't 802s basically 800s with different engines?)

The GWR 800s and 802s are virtually identical with the same engines...

 

[m79900]

Would it be possible for them to just go with a follow on order for 195/331s?

 

[northwichcat]

From my own small window on Northern world the 195s are performing as well as the rest of the fleet these days on a purely DMU front at least.

Well I arrived at my destination 60 minutes late yesterday due to a fault with one of the ex-Anglia 156s, so I can't say the same.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

Would it be possible for them to just go with a follow on order for 195/331s?

Not if diesel only is forbidden.

 

[m79900]

Not if diesel only is forbidden.

Okay, so could CAF build a bimode fleet based on the existing trains?

 

[jonesy3001]

Or build more CAF EMUs 4 car or extra cars for the 331s and get a different build like stadler for the diesel/bi-mode trains.

 

[Whistler40145]

Would a fleet of Stadler Class 756 be suitable units for Northern?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Okay, so could CAF build a bimode fleet based on the existing trains?

Isn't that what the tender is supposed to find out?
All manufacturers will talk a big game on capability, but delivery to UK spec is usually fraught, and expensive.

 

[Energy]

The GWR 800s and 802s are virtually identical with the same engines...

Indeed, differences are maintanences agreements, financing and where they are built. The Pistoia built 802s are generally worse built than the Newton Aycliffe 800s.

Okay, so could CAF build a bimode fleet based on the existing trains?

They can bid it. The tender wants an easy ability to change power during the units life.

Or build more CAF EMUs 4 car or extra cars for the 331s and get a different build like stadler for the diesel/bi-mode trains.

If you extended the 331s they wouldn't be able to operate 6 car. Northern doesn't need more EMUs right now, 323 and 333 replacement would be towards the end of this procurement.

Its possible for CAF to partial bid 331s and battery 331s and leave out a diesel solution.

Would a fleet of Stadler Class 756 be suitable units for Northern?

With a different engine configuration. One issue with FLIRTS is that the fuel tank is mounted over the bogey if the adjoining car. The extra weight of the full size fuel tank over in Anglia would have made the 755s unable to use SP speeds so they have a smaller tank.

It wouldn't be impossible for Northern two have 2 engines and the other two pods fuel tank + remaining space for battery. Two engines alone would beat a Sprinter.

 

[Whistler40145]

Would Northern go to CAF again considering the number of trains which have had to be taken out of service to check for cracks etc?

 

[jonesy3001]

Would Northern go to CAF again considering the number of trains which have had to be taken out of service to check for cracks etc?

Don't think the 196s and 197s have had problems yet with the cracks and bracket issues, I hope they do stick with CAF.

 

[Geeves]

Well I arrived at my destination 60 minutes late yesterday due to a fault with one of the ex-Anglia 156s, so I can't say the same.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==



Not if diesel only is forbidden.

I didn't say it was good! CAF bimode would be my pick for future Northern stock. The MD has already stated he wants one singular fleet for the entire franchise (eventually) Also all the additional mods can be worked into the new fleet straight from the factory

 

[Whistler40145]

I quite like the 196s and 197s having end connection, maybe CAF could build a 25k/Diesel/Battery version for Northern

 

[D6975]

Indeed, differences are maintanences agreements, financing and where they are built. The Pistoia built 802s are generally worse built than the Newton Aycliffe 800s.

Don't forget the fuel tanks. 802s were intended to do more running off the wires from the start and so have larger fuel tanks.

 

[Trainbike46]

Which manufacturer has so far produced an affordable UK-spec EMU/DMU/battery train that demonstrably works?

Stadler (755, 756, 777) and Hitachi (80x)

Which isn't to say others couldn't build a good-quality multimode train, but Stadler and Hitachi are the only ones that have both diesel/ohle and battery/ohle multimodes in service today. And both are getting diesel/battery/ohle trimodes in service soon (756 for stadler, 80x battery trial for Hitachi)

Would a fleet of Stadler Class 756 be suitable units for Northern?

I think so, they are good quality trimodes with level boarding, so to me they would be ideal

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Ideally the 170s should be put on Wigan to Leeds or Blackpool to York, a route which they suit much more than 158s or 195s, or sent to EMR like the rest of them have been (except SR).

Crosscountry have 29 170s as well

I think so, they are good quality trimodes with level boarding, so to me they would be ideal

I've heard good things about the 755s and would welcome a FLIRT on my line.

 

[Mamorin]

I've also heard good things about the flirts and would welcome them on my line. However my line will be one of the last to get any new trains from any order.

 

[northwichcat]

The MD has already stated he wants one singular fleet for the entire franchise (eventually) Also all the additional mods can be worked into the new fleet straight from the factory

That would presumably mean one of:
1. Mixed internal specs.
2. The regional services being operated by trains that feel very commuter like.
3. The local services being operated by trains with a low seating density.
4. A compromise meaning a bit of 2 and a bit of 3.

 

[Mamorin]

The MD has already stated he wants one singular fleet for the entire franchise (eventually)

Before this tender went out I felt that ment a whole fleet of 195/331s, but now I'm not sure as CAF have not built Bi-mode or Tri-Modes for the UK. Any Bi-Mode or Tri-modes CAF were to build would require a lot of testing where as say if Stadler were to win then testing might be quicker. This would be due to 755s already running on the network and possibly soon 756s will be running on the network.

I now feel this could mean a singular fleet of whoever wins the order, if the tender becomes an order.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Stadler (755, 756, 777) and Hitachi (80x)

Which isn't to say others couldn't build a good-quality multimode train, but Stadler and Hitachi are the only ones that have both diesel/ohle and battery/ohle multimodes in service today. And both are getting diesel/battery/ohle trimodes in service soon (756 for stadler, 80x battery trial for Hitachi)

80x is overkill for Northern (and regional trains generally), and the battery capability is unproven.
Stadler 755 are diesel/electric bi-modes but have they been used on regular bi-mode services switching modes en-route or are they essentially being used as DMU replacements?
Class 756 - has the battery capability been used in service yet? Or even the bi-mode capability of switching between diesel and electric?
Class 777 - as EMUs only, their introduction has not been without problems, and the battery capability is untested.

Before piling into a large tri-mode order, I'm just very sceptical of the capability of UK TOCs to operate multi-mode services successfully with current technology and operating methods.
The manufacturers, and Network Rail, are also feeling their way.

 

[Mamorin]

Class 756 - has the battery capability been used in service yet? Or even the bi-mode capability of switching between diesel and electric?

The Class 756 is not in service yet so the answer is no.

 

[43096]

Stadler 755 are diesel/electric bi-modes but have they been used on regular bi-mode services switching modes en-route or are they essentially being used as DMU replacements?

It varies by route. On the Ipswich-Cambridge/Peterborough routes they start in AC mode and switch to diesel. Likewise on the Norwich-Stansted Airport service they switch from AC to diesel at Ely.