Adding third rail to redoubled track

[PTR 444]

Just a quick question regarding third rail. Obviously any new stretches on track where it doesn’t exist are prohibited by the ORR, but say in the event of an existing single-track third rail railway being doubled, would new third rail be allowed for the additional stretch of track? Or would an alternative method of electrification have to be found for it despite running parallel?

I believe the remaining single track third rail stretches which are most likely to need redoubling are Frimley - Ash Vale, Farnham - Alton, the Botley Line and Moreton - Dorchester. It would be stupid not to use third rail in the event of redoubling unless there was a much bigger plan to replace all third rail with OHLE.

 

[RobShipway]

Just a quick question regarding third rail. Obviously any new stretches on track where it doesn’t exist are prohibited by the ORR, but say in the event of an existing single-track third rail railway being doubled, would new third rail be allowed for the additional stretch of track? Or would an alternative method of electrification have to be found for it despite running parallel?

I believe the remaining single track third rail stretches which are most likely to need redoubling are Frimley - Ash Vale, Farnham - Alton, the Botley Line and Moreton - Dorchester. It would be stupid not to use third rail in the event of redoubling unless there was a much bigger plan to replace all third rail with OHLE.

Let's put it this way, there has been a few attempts to put down third rail between Ore and Ashford. Each time, I believe with the answer being no, even though there is third rail ending at Ore and Third rail exists with services provided by South Eastern at Ashford International.

Given the above, I cannot see third rail being put down for redoubling, when it will not be put down where existing track lies currently.

 

[Doomotron]

Just a quick question regarding third rail. Obviously any new stretches on track where it doesn’t exist are prohibited by the ORR, but say in the event of an existing single-track third rail railway being doubled, would new third rail be allowed for the additional stretch of track? Or would an alternative method of electrification have to be found for it despite running parallel?

I believe the remaining single track third rail stretches which are most likely to need redoubling are Frimley - Ash Vale, Farnham - Alton, the Botley Line and Moreton - Dorchester. It would be stupid not to use third rail in the event of redoubling unless there was a much bigger plan to replace all third rail with OHLE.

Third rail has been installed new in places, such as during the Thameslink Programme. Since the line is already equipped with third rail, this would likely be honoured by any upgrades to the track.

Let's put it this way, there has been a few attempts to put down third rail between Ore and Ashford. Each time, I believe with the answer being no, even though there is third rail ending at Ore and Third rail exists with services provided by South Eastern at Ashford International.

Is there any evidence for it being declined based on the third rail? Other plans for the Marshlink that didn't require the third rail being added were also declined or never made it past the planning or conceptual stages.

 

[RobShipway]

Is there any evidence for it being declined based on the third rail? Other plans for the Marshlink that didn't require the third rail being added were also declined or never made it past the planning or conceptual stages.

If you read the Modern Railways article https://www.modernrailways.com/article/uckfield-third-rail-nr-priority, then if there is going to be third rail added, then the priority is to the Uckfield Line, not the Marshlink line. That for me, pretty much says that there is no hope for the Marshlink line to get third rail between Ore to Ashford International.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just a quick question regarding third rail. Obviously any new stretches on track where it doesn’t exist are prohibited by the ORR, but say in the event of an existing single-track third rail railway being doubled, would new third rail be allowed for the additional stretch of track? Or would an alternative method of electrification have to be found for it despite running parallel?

Not that long compared to suggested redoublings, but I remember when the additional up slow 3rd rail fitted track was installed between Southampton Parkway and Eastleigh in about 2013. It was initially described as a freight facility, and the local pessimists were saying it couldn’t be powered because of ‘ORR rules’, even while the 3rd rail was being delivered and installed. EMUs calling at Eastleigh have been using it routinely since a few days after opening. I doubt the extra 3rd rail in parallel with existing was ever an issue.

 

[paul1609]

If you read the Modern Railways article https://www.modernrailways.com/article/uckfield-third-rail-nr-priority, then if there is going to be third rail added, then the priority is to the Uckfield Line, not the Marshlink line. That for me, pretty much says that there is no hope for the Marshlink line to get third rail between Ore to Ashford International.

The Uckfield line probably would be the priority it has more passengers and direct trains to London however the fact that it would leave Southern needing around 6 diesel trains along with maintenance facilities suggests that a solution needs to be found for both.
Rye to Ashford the busiest part of Marsh link has more passengers than either the Corby or Windermere Branch.

 

[Helvellyn]

I believe the remaining single track third rail stretches which are most likely to need redoubling are Frimley - Ash Vale, Farnham - Alton, the Botley Line and Moreton - Dorchester. It would be stupid not to use third rail in the event of redoubling unless there was a much bigger plan to replace all third rail with OHOHLE.

For Farnham - Alton if anything were to happen it would probably be more to turn the loop at Bentley into a more dynamic one rather than a full redoubling.

For the Botley line the tunnels between Botley and Farnham prevent any full redoubling plus the embankments aren't in the best shape so I doubt you would see anything there.

I think it's frustrating we have infill schemes like Marshlink, Uckfield and the North Downs that we can't get done. Just a shame they could never have got progressed under NSE.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One only needs to look at Kirkby to see where the current consensus seems to be on new third rail installations. Since the extension to Headbolt Lane the juice rail does not cover the whole length of the platform at Kirkby- meaning even those services which don't continue to Headbolt Lane have to be 777/1s with the traction batteries fitted.

 

[The exile]

One only needs to look at Kirkby to see where the current consensus seems to be on new third rail installations. Since the extension to Headbolt Lane the juice rail does not cover the whole length of the platform at Kirkby- meaning even those services which don't continue to Headbolt Lane have to be 777/1s with the traction batteries fitted.

Although operationally that’s probably no bad thing - allowing flexibility when there’s service disruption.

 

[Gloster]

I don’t think that Frimley Junction-Ash Vale was ever double.

 

[RobShipway]

The Uckfield line probably would be the priority it has more passengers and direct trains to London however the fact that it would leave Southern needing around 6 diesel trains along with maintenance facilities suggests that a solution needs to be found for both.
Rye to Ashford the busiest part of Marsh link has more passengers than either the Corby or Windermere Branch.

I cannot disagree with your comment.

I think it's frustrating we have infill schemes like Marshlink, Uckfield and the North Downs that we can't get done. Just a shame they could never have got progressed under NSE.

Again a comment I cannot disagree with.

 

[30907]

For redoubling, as for extra sidings etc, grandfather rights would cover it.

BTW was Factory Jn- Longhedge Jn electrified before London Overground in 2012 - if not, it must be the last section of new third rail added to the network.

 

[adamedwards]

Ashford to Ore should be 25kv overhead as an extension to HS1. The service would then be run by extra Javelins and I believe the idea was to run them to Bexhill when this was suggested several years ago. Hastings then stops being at the end of a slow train from Charing Cross and becomes a commutable distance to St Pancras and thus a much more desireable place to live. So 3rd rail is not needed and it's a much easier job to do.

The unfortunate killer for this scheme is Ashford station has to be rebuilt to enable the trains to get over from the Marshlink line to HS1 as the crossovers to do this do not exist. ca

Uckfield is the priority. I read in I think Modern Railways that one idea being mooted is batteries so the third rail doesn't have to be laid at stations, near level crossings and in yards, so as to reduce the risk of someone stepping on the juice. So that might be enough to get it approved. There will be engineering solutions, there usually are.

It won't happen until after a general election because levelling up the south is not allowed lest the red wall voters be annoyed.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Uckfield is the priority. I read in I think Modern Railways that one idea being mooted is batteries so the third rail doesn't have to be laid at stations, near level crossings and in yards, so as to reduce the risk of someone stepping on the juice. So that might be enough to get it approved. There will be engineering solutions, there usually are.

Now if only we could use 25kV electrification from Hurst Green to Uckfield then use some of the dual voltage 377s...

...although I don't think there'd be enough spare dual voltage 377s? I know Southern's fleet is running a bit short at the minute, and that's quite literal.

 

[zwk500]

For redoubling, as for extra sidings etc, grandfather rights would cover it.

BTW was Factory Jn- Longhedge Jn electrified before London Overground in 2012 - if not, it must be the last section of new third rail added to the network.

Railway Codes gives 'Clapham Junction area Connections' for 1993. The last section of totally new 3rd rail would then presumably be the East London Line in 2010.

Electrification dates

A list of all known UK railway electrification dates

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

Ashford to Ore should be 25kv overhead as an extension to HS1.

If third rail doesn't add up then 25KV overhead won't. Ashford to Eastbourne seems perfect for battery operation, might need a top up at Rye but perfectly feasible.

Uckfield is the priority. I read in I think Modern Railways that one idea being mooted is batteries so the third rail doesn't have to be laid at stations, near level crossings and in yards, so as to reduce the risk of someone stepping on the juice. So that might be enough to get it approved. There will be engineering solutions, there usually are.

Several options have been looked at, AIUI. No firm decisions have been made as far as I'm aware.

It won't happen until after a general election because levelling up the south is not allowed lest the red wall voters be annoyed.

It won't happen after an election either because Uckfield does not run through marginals.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes it’s permitted, and has been done - eg the new tracks around Bermondsey and Borough Market for Thameslink, and various new depots (eg the Siemens depot at Three Bridges).

BTW was Factory Jn- Longhedge Jn electrified before London Overground in 2012 - if not, it must be the last section of new third rail added to the network.

It was already electrified.

 

[MarkyT]

Railway Codes gives 'Clapham Junction area Connections' for 1993. The last section of totally new 3rd rail would then presumably be the East London Line in 2010.

Remembering that the middle Thames Tunnel section was previously 4-rail under LUL. The viaduct section to Dalston was new or more accurately reinstated with a new connecting link through Shoreditch. Historically, it was 3rd rail as part of the NLL though but closed and reopened decades later so no grandfathering was involved I expect. However the viaduct section is highly segregated which must have been in its favour for consideration as a new system, and being 2 tracks on a formerly mostly 4 track alignment means there is generally ample clearance for safe refuge for any staff working on the trackside. I'd expect state-of-the-art design in respect of sectioning for isolations, protection procedures etc.

If third rail doesn't add up then 25KV overhead won't. Ashford to Eastbourne seems perfect for battery operation, might need a top up at Rye but perfectly feasible.

Also, trains are much shorter on Marshlink than Uckfield, hence less special battery-equipped stock would be required and less total energy requirement.

 

[zwk500]

Remembering that the middle Thames Tunnel section was previously 4-rail under LUL. The viaduct section to Dalston was new or more accurately reinstated with a new connecting link through Shoreditch. Historically, it was 3rd rail as part of the NLL though but closed and reopened decades later so no grandfathering was involved I expect. However the viaduct section is highly segregated which must have been in its favour for consideration as a new system, and being 2 tracks on a formerly mostly 4 track alignment means there is generally ample clearance for safe refuge for any staff working on the trackside. I'd expect state-of-the-art design in respect of sectioning for isolations, protection procedures etc.

This is, I expect, the key difference. The line has no new level crossings and extremely frequent services so the chances of a trespasser is very low. Staff have ample room to move about and the cost of installing 25KV to New Cross gate was presumably judged worse value when you consider what they would have needed to do to the tunnel. The cost of 25kV from Highbury to Wapping and Dual-voltage units was presumably also judged to be not worth it compared to the risks of the 3rd rail being mitigated.

Also, trains are much shorter on Marshlink than Uckfield, hence less special battery-equipped stock would be required and less total energy requirement.

Indeed.

 

[30907]

Railway Codes gives 'Clapham Junction area Connections' for 1993. The last section of totally new 3rd rail would then presumably be the East London Line in 2010.

It was already electrified.

Thanks both.

I had realised and thought I'd edited that bit out - after all, I went from Wandsorth Rd to Kenny on the Parly once!