Improving or closing complete Basket Case Stations

[Neptune]

If there's enough slack in the timetable this isn't a great problem on a branch, particularly if all stations on the branch work this way.

I note above that the minor Southport line stations do get in the way, but I am unconvinced that these do.

The Barnstaple line is very much based around the stops as the trains cross at Eggesford and Crediton. Request stops are basically added extras on top of these.

 

[zwk500]

Whether request stops make sense depends on the route, and how often statistically each is used. Totally invalidating the idea suggests that all bus operations the world over have it wrong, for instance.

The way request stops are timed is to schedule the train to come to a stop for zero seconds and then add 30 seconds adjustment allowance approaching the next tiploc, so the overall time taken for a request stop is precisely the same as a train with a scheduled 30 seconds stop. If you only have 1 or 2 request stops between mandatory stops then all it does is give you a bit of breathing space. If you have lots, you could potentially pass the later request stops early and miss a flag down.
It's far better to just schedule them as actual calls with -1 public time if you want the performance benefit.

 

[Silenos]

Passenger numbers look to be up around 50% on pre-pandemic figures. Might give that pub a look next month when down that way.

The Devonshire Dumpling, at Morchard Road, is better in my opinion

 

[dk1]

The Devonshire Dumpling, at Morchard Road, is better in my opinion

I’d better check the opening times first.

 

[Starmill]

If there's enough slack in the timetable this isn't a great problem on a branch, particularly if all stations on the branch work this way.

I note above that the minor Southport line stations do get in the way, but I am unconvinced that these do.

Removing the request stops saves at minimum 30 seconds per stop. If it's not a location the train has to stop for a crossing or token, it's 60 seconds or more per stop. Very different to on a bus.

 

[30907]

The Barnstaple line is very much based around the stops as the trains cross at Eggesford and Crediton. Request stops are basically added extras on top of these

So Morchard Rd and Yeoford can be served every hour (Copplestone has become a mandatory stop, I notice) because there is no advantage in missing them out. Lapford gets served most hours for the same reason.
After Eggesford only Umberleigh gets offered by every train.

So closing Lapford, PA, KN and Chapelton would basically allow trains to reach Barnstaple 2 minutes earlier on average. But you'd have to run a minibus at times to cover essential travel, which is not very efficient.

Of course, if you resignalled and introduced dynamic loops you might be able to run a fast service on top of the existing timetable, but that's big(gish) money.

 

[Grecian 1998]

The Barnstaple line timetable does focus on serving the intermediate stations where there is some modest custom over the ones where there is virtually nil custom. This is I presume because it wouldn't be feasible to run an hourly clockface service serving all stations, but it makes perfect sense. The stops at Crediton and Eggesford are compulsory due to the loops, although Crediton is the only town directly served, and Eggesford serves Chulmleigh in any case. Yeoford, Copplestone, Lapford and Umberleigh stations are in or adjacent to the villages they serve. Morchard Road is as the name suggests some way from the village, but does have other nearby villages to serve.

Kings Nympton, Portsmouth Arms and Chapelton in comparison have virtually no local population to serve. It surprises me that no attempts to 'modify the Tarka Line by closing them in the 1960s were made given the line wasn't listed for closure in the Beeching Report, although it has I believe been under threat at times since. Newton St Cyres is also some way from the village and the bus into Exeter has long been more convenient. Consequently it makes sense to focus on the other stations.

There are in any case additional services on Saturday evenings at Newton St Cyres and Portsmouth Arms, given the fact there is more custom at that time of the week due to the Beer Engine, and whatever the pub at Portsmouth Arms is called.

I do tend to the view that reducing services to lightly used stations (even if not necessarily closing them) could benefit many more people than it disadvantages. The Cambrian Coast route to Pwlheli has 28 stations in 57 miles and takes 140 minutes. Many of them are request stops. I don't know the area, but is it necessary to serve every single one of them on all services? I know the line speed isn't very high, but surely cutting out a few stops could improve the journey time.

Along the same lines as @zwk500's mention of Balcombe, there are 11 intermediate stations in 13 miles between Brighton and Goring-by-Sea. Given it's a 2 track line which is basically impossible to expand due to urban sprawl along the entire route, would it be unreasonable to reduce some stations to a parliamentary frequency? Several stations are less than 1.5 miles from the next one, so it wouldn't seem to massively deprive anyone of access to public transport. Currently the line attempts to be both something of a metro between Worthing and Brighton, but also a longer distance route between Southampton / Portsmouth and Brighton. This means journey times on the longer distance routes are not particularly impressive. Having a few longer gaps between stations might help.

As always, the question is at what point the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[RobShipway]

The Barnstaple line timetable does focus on serving the intermediate stations where there is some modest custom over the ones where there is virtually nil custom. This is I presume because it wouldn't be feasible to run an hourly clockface service serving all stations, but it makes perfect sense. The stops at Crediton and Eggesford are compulsory due to the loops, although Crediton is the only town directly served, and Eggesford serves Chulmleigh in any case. Yeoford, Copplestone, Lapford and Umberleigh stations are in or adjacent to the villages they serve. Morchard Road is as the name suggests some way from the village, but does have other nearby villages to serve.

Kings Nympton, Portsmouth Arms and Chapelton in comparison have virtually no local population to serve. It surprises me that no attempts to 'modify the Tarka Line by closing them in the 1960s were made given the line wasn't listed for closure in the Beeching Report, although it has I believe been under threat at times since. Newton St Cyres is also some way from the village and the bus into Exeter has long been more convenient. Consequently it makes sense to focus on the other stations.

There are in any case additional services on Saturday evenings at Newton St Cyres and Portsmouth Arms, given the fact there is more custom at that time of the week due to the Beer Engine, and whatever the pub at Portsmouth Arms is called.

I do tend to the view that reducing services to lightly used stations (even if not necessarily closing them) could benefit many more people than it disadvantages. The Cambrian Coast route to Pwlheli has 28 stations in 57 miles and takes 140 minutes. Many of them are request stops. I don't know the area, but is it necessary to serve every single one of them on all services? I know the line speed isn't very high, but surely cutting out a few stops could improve the journey time.

Along the same lines as @zwk500's mention of Balcombe, there are 11 intermediate stations in 13 miles between Brighton and Goring-by-Sea. Given it's a 2 track line which is basically impossible to expand due to urban sprawl along the entire route, would it be unreasonable to reduce some stations to a parliamentary frequency? Several stations are less than 1.5 miles from the next one, so it wouldn't seem to massively deprive anyone of access to public transport. Currently the line attempts to be both something of a metro between Worthing and Brighton, but also a longer distance route between Southampton / Portsmouth and Brighton. This means journey times on the longer distance routes are not particularly impressive. Having a few longer gaps between stations might help.

As always, the question is at what point the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Back in the 1990's and before, you had fast services from Brighton to Portsmouth or Southampton, which would stop at Hove, Worthing, Barnham and Chichester. After which you would have local service from Brighton to Worthing/Littlehampton stopping all stations. You would also have a stopping Littlehampton to Portsmouth & Southsea.

The path of the fast services got taken away, when GWR had their services which went to Brighton. The following is what I believe should happen:

05:00 Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour stopping at Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, Portsmouth Harbour
05:05 Brighton to Southampton stopping at Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Sputhampton Central
05:10 Brighton to Littlehampton all stops service
05:20 Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea all stops service
05:27 Brighton to Southampton all stops service
06:00 Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour stopping at Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea, Portsmouth Harbour
06:05 Brighton to Southampton stopping at Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Sputhampton Central

I would not bother with the services to West Worthing, as this would be served by the stopping services.

But from reading the comment below from the wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coastway_line for the West Coastway route, I think going forward you are going to see even more stopping services, than you have now:

"It is now proposed by Southern to shake up the service pattern in the region, by diverting all the services from Southampton Central to London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour, as well as diverting all Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton services to Southampton Central and with an additional stop at Woolston. If all is successful, these new changes would come into effect in May 2024."

 

[PGAT]

Along the same lines as @zwk500's mention of Balcombe, there are 11 intermediate stations in 13 miles between Brighton and Goring-by-Sea. Given it's a 2 track line which is basically impossible to expand due to urban sprawl along the entire route, would it be unreasonable to reduce some stations to a parliamentary frequency? Several stations are less than 1.5 miles from the next one, so it wouldn't seem to massively deprive anyone of access to public transport.

It’s the very same urban sprawl which gives them enough patronage to justify an off-peak service in the first place. The only station where it could be reasonably argued to close is Aldrington, which is a 10 minute walk away from Hove

 

[30907]

I do tend to the view that reducing services to lightly used stations (even if not necessarily closing them) could benefit many more people than it disadvantages. The Cambrian Coast route to Pwlheli has 28 stations in 57 miles and takes 140 minutes. Many of them are request stops. I don't know the area, but is it necessary to serve every single one of them on all services? I know the line speed isn't very high, but surely cutting out a few stops could improve the journey time.

As with the Barnstaple line, the crossing loops determine the overall journey time, so there's nothing to be gained except north of Harlech, and not much there.
In addition, during the holiday period there is considerable traffic at the request stops south of Harlech (except Tonfanau and ?Pensarn).
North of Harlech is quieter but only Tygwyn is really remote, and that has an open LC which slows things down anyway.
Given that the line exists on schools traffic in winter, the halts have to stay - and there may be a bit of politics involved?

 

[156421]

As with the Barnstaple line, the crossing loops determine the overall journey time, so there's nothing to be gained except north of Harlech, and not much there.
In addition, during the holiday period there is considerable traffic at the request stops south of Harlech (except Tonfanau and ?Pensarn).
North of Harlech is quieter but only Tygwyn is really remote, and that has an open LC which slows things down anyway.
Given that the line exists on schools traffic in winter, the halts have to stay - and there may be a bit of politics involved?

They could install request buttons at the halts like Scotrail did at Scotscalder (so the driver knows in advance whether anyone is waiting) then make a song and dance about it being the first time anything like this has been done like Jenny Gilruth did, despite the same technology being in use at St. Bees Golf Halt over 100 years prior! This doesn't reduce journey times but does add a very small degree of resilience to the timetable as there MAY be opportunity to make up lost time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As with the Barnstaple line, the crossing loops determine the overall journey time, so there's nothing to be gained except north of Harlech, and not much there.
In addition, during the holiday period there is considerable traffic at the request stops south of Harlech (except Tonfanau and ?Pensarn).
North of Harlech is quieter but only Tygwyn is really remote, and that has an open LC which slows things down anyway.
Given that the line exists on schools traffic in winter, the halts have to stay - and there may be a bit of politics involved?

It's also worth bearing in mind that Pwllheli is hardly a metropolis - the demand on the lne is very distributed. Very much a local railway. It's nothing like Barnstaple where you have a line through nothingness going to a reasonably sized town.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2023 ==

They could install request buttons at the halts like Scotrail did at Scotscalder (so the driver knows in advance whether anyone is waiting) then make a song and dance about it being the first time anything like this has been done like Jenny Gilruth did, despite the same technology being in use at St. Bees Golf Halt over 100 years prior! This doesn't reduce journey times but does add a very small degree of resilience to the timetable as there MAY be opportunity to make up lost time.

This is standard in Switzerland, with on-board stop buttons too, just like a bus or some trams.

 

[DJ_K666]

If anything more stations should be built, rather than closed to get more people off the roads and we should also have tram systems put back into place in many cities and towns. Unfortunately, given the funds that the tory party says hat we have as a nation in the bank, that is never going to happen, even though we need to cut down on pollution so that the next generations have a world to live in.

If we followed your example, then there would be more station closures than the Beeching cuts of the late 1960's to early 1970's.

I do though find it funny that you have a place like Bleasby that has a population 3,742 or Rolleston with 2,578, yet somewhere like Peacehaven in East Sussex which has a population of 15,707 at the last census, has no station what so ever and certainly pre - covid was seeing regular traffic jams on the A259 into Brighton through Saltdean and Rottingdean. I believe that there is many towns like Peacehaven, many of whom are nearer to the national railway lines, that also do not have a station and are relying on diesel powered bus services. Yes, possible some of those diesel powered buses could be changed over to use hydrotreated vegetable oil as Chiltern has done with the class 68 locomotives that it uses. But I do not see that happening with any of the bus companies, the only changes are with using electric buses in Cities and large towns.

Before any asks, no I am not a member of the Green Party, but I do think that the Government should be providing money a.s.a.p for conversion of both diesel or petrol engine vehicles, to help to be making the pollution a lot less.

Brighton and Hove busesxare already heading that way. The Big Lemon used chip fat to power its buses but came ubstuck thd first winter when their fuel froze solid. B&H were looking into hydrogen for theirs and tried out one but unfortunately until these cleaner buses come right down in price they won't be a worthwhile investment. They got funding for their Hybrids but then it was only 14 of them plus an ex Demonstrator. They cost 250k each instead of 180k for a standard diesel bus and the batteries need replacing every 5 years, although they found an average of 3.5 years before they gave trouble. So basically the company isn't currently in a position to get credit of their diesel vehicles yet, plus altering 180 buses for bio fuel might not be economically practical. All diesel buses were converted to Euro 5 standards minimum while I was there. Many by now will be Euro 6.

[Inside information] I was working for them when the hybrids (Vehicles 440-452) first arrived and they're not all that if I have to be honest. The batteries don't last as long as they should and once they start going the buses either don't go into electric mode at all, or do so very briefly. Plus they lose power so can't keep time, in extreme cases leading to a service curtailment when the driver potentially runs out of driving time (hence why they were specifically kept off the 13X)
The current turquoise vehicles run through the city centre on electric power so maybe later another development might allow more electric running. B&H plan to keep vehicles for around 15-20 years and then sell them on, they are well serviced too. BSically environmental benefits are more expensive than they ought to be [/Inside information]

There has never been a railway through Peacehaven, hence no station. I'm certain there would be one if a line had been built but the LBSCR built the Kemp Town branch to keep the South Eastern railway out and the crest is history.
It would certainly have been an interesting line to use though but there would be a lot of tunnels due to the geography of Brighton. Most likely alternating between deep-level tunnels and sub surface levels, which is where the stations would have to go. They'd likely have to be deep under the Steiner and maybe deeper than Angel is or Bull&Bush would have been on the Tube by the time you got to the main Brighton BR Station with its attendant long escalators... there's food for thought

 

[Meerkat]

If there's enough slack in the timetable this isn't a great problem on a branch, particularly if all stations on the branch work this way.

I note above that the minor Southport line stations do get in the way, but I am unconvinced that these do.

For Barnstaple it’s not worth the bother of closing the basket cases without a route renewal.
if you close stations it might become worthwhile doing some speed upgrades etc etc.
Then just present it as a package, all or nothing - you can’t keep the basket cases and have the upgrade.