UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Chester1]

Whilst it's likely that we will lose oil/gas delivery over time from the North Sea, with the 9 to 25 year window* before a new license will reach the produce stage anything which is granted now isn't going to impact us for probably a decade, and maybe more.

As such, if we do consider our emissions from the production of something they aren't going to be altered in the short term. However if we don't then we shouldn't be producing any oil or gas as then those production emissions are counted by other people and not us!

Of course taken to its extreme there's no emissions from building my car as that's production emissions, so if I buy an electric car (where the emissions from the building of the car are significant but over the entire lifetime generally end up lower than an ICE) and it only ever powered by solar from my house, then this is as good for the planet as walking everywhere - right?

*Timeline taken from this UK Aid document on likely timelines which then core two sources for its information:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/57a089efed915d3cfd0004d4/Short_guide_summarising_the_oil_and_gas_industry_lifecycle-43.pdf

I would prefer the situation you have outlined to the UK sending £10s of billions a year overseas when the UK has oil and gas that could be extracted instead. I don't agree with the "Net Zero" appproach because it results in economically disastrous and non environmentally beneficial outcomes like importing oil and gas rather than using our own reserves. My view is that we need a policy that is specifically about decarbonisation and technology driven, not about "carbon budgets". We should decarbonise as fast as is economically and politically viable. In the mean time we should max out the North Sea reserves. A "low pollution by 2050" policy would be an easier sell in the red wall etc than "net zero".

It will be interesting to find out what the minimum 2030 range requirement for hybrids will be. If its enough for day to day journeys and commutes e.g. 100 miles when brand new, it should be practical and affordable to switch. I am more concerned about 2035 EV only deadline which is a bet on better battery technology. If 2030 hybrids have enough range for day to day journeys they will bring forward most of the benefits of switch to EVs. The average emmisions of a hybrid car that is charged at home with a 100 mile battery range will be a fraction of an ICE. Most people rarely drive that far.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't agree with the "Net Zero" appproach because it results in economically disastrous and non environmentally beneficial outcomes like importing oil and gas rather than using our own reserves.

Surely the point of ‘net zero’ is that we don’t need to import gas or oil to burn for energy?

It will be interesting to find out what the minimum 2030 range requirement for hybrids will be. If its enough for day to day journeys and commutes e.g. 100 miles when brand new, it should be practical and affordable to switch.

Well that’s the hanging question. If the requirement is just ‘hybrid’, then we are more than halfway there already (54% of cars sold this year have been some form of hybrid).

However by next year, almost every new EV will have range enough for a 100 mile each way commute, with no need to charge at work. That makes it practical to switch, no?

If 2030 hybrids have enough range for day to day journeys they will bring forward most of the benefits of switch to EVs.

As above, EVs already have enough range for almost all day to day journeys.

 

[jon0844]

In the mean time we should max out the North Sea reserves.

Am I wrong in thinking that it's sold on the open market, so while it might well be the gas sent to us because it's closest - we aren't actually saving any money because of the way global pricing works.

If we weren't giving these licences to private companies making billions (and keeping prices high, while also avoiding taxes being paid here) then perhaps it would make sense. We could secure cheap oil/gas and not need to trade globally.

If we could become more self sufficient thanks to green energy (or building more nuclear power stations), we might have been able to do that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==

However by next year, almost every new EV will have range enough for a 100 mile each way commute, with no need to charge at work. That makes it practical to switch, no?

There might also be more companies that allow charging at work, for people who can't do so easily at home. Another thing an employer can advertise as a perk to staff, along with salary sacrifice schemes to make getting an EV even cheaper.

 

[Chester1]

Surely the point of ‘net zero’ is that we don’t need to import gas or oil to burn for energy?



Well that’s the hanging question. If the requirement is just ‘hybrid’, then we are more than halfway there already (54% of cars sold this year have been some form of hybrid).

However by next year, almost every new EV will have range enough for a 100 mile each way commute, with no need to charge at work. That makes it practical to switch, no?



As above, EVs already have enough range for almost all day to day journeys.

As things stand will need to import a lot of oil and gas between now and 2050 to power legacy technology. If we banned new ICE cars and gas boilers today that would still be the case. Its better that oil and gas comes from North Sea than abroad.

A lot of people won't voluntarily switch until they can do all their journeys in an EV. A hybrid with a decent range is vastly superior to an EV if you semi regularly visit friends and family across country or need to travel long distance for work to places poorly located for rail travel.

Am I wrong in thinking that it's sold on the open market, so while it might well be the gas sent to us because it's closest - we aren't actually saving any money because of the way global pricing works.

If we weren't giving these licences to private companies making billions (and keeping prices high, while also avoiding taxes being paid here) then perhaps it would make sense. We could secure cheap oil/gas and not need to trade globally.

If we could become more self sufficient thanks to green energy (or building more nuclear power stations), we might have been able to do that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==



There might also be more companies that allow charging at work, for people who can't do so easily at home. Another thing an employer can advertise as a perk to staff, along with salary sacrifice schemes to make getting an EV even cheaper.

Having a privatised system is a political choice, personally I would prefer a national oil and gas company with mixed state and private ownership. Even our current private system does bring considerable economic benefits down the supply chain and in terms of well paid jobs. Look at Aberdeen's 90s and early 2000s heyday. Would you prefer that legacy appliances use oil and gas bought from Shell or directly fund Middle Eastern despots? Even if we transition much faster than currently planned the west still be reliant on non western imports.

One aspect of our current system that is ignored is that while a lot of supply is exported, in an emergency it can be quickly taken over by the government and distributed according to national security needs. If Europe had had a really cold winter of 2022-23 and Russia had been faster reducing supplies to EU members this could have happened. Our supply was fairly secure but some of our neighbours were fortunate to get away with being reliant on imported fuel.

Its OT but I think that the government isn't going fast enough in other areas of the energy transition. I just don't think decarbonise faster is the answer to oil and gas supply during the transition. There are practical limits to how fast we can decarbonise. We need to be pushing up against those limits and then getting the remaining energy we need from UK reserves. If we decarbonise fast enough we could become a net exporter again, with a policy to favour selling to european countries.

 

[The Ham]

A lot of people won't voluntarily switch until they can do all their journeys in an EV. A hybrid with a decent range is vastly superior to an EV if you semi regularly visit friends and family across country or need to travel long distance for work to places poorly located for rail travel.

As someone who regularly makes a 250 mile trip to see family (which I hasten to add is statistically rare given that in average only 8 trips are made of more than 50 miles a year - and we use up a few from other people) there's a need for us to take at least a short break at some point along the route (be that food, to use the loo or for some other reason) we aren't that far off thinking that an EV would be fine for all our travel.

The limiting factor is mostly the cost of any second hand car.

Even a hybrid with a 40 mile range would actually cover on electric all of the day to day travel for anyone with a commute of about 25 minutes each way probably a bit longer, especially if you didn't use motorways or other high speed roads).

 

[paul1609]

We've replaced both of our cars with EVs in the past 12 months. Haven't found a catch yet. 800 miles to holiday and back is costing about £40 in electricity and the journey took no longer than by ICE last year.
My regular 180 mile round trip to London costs £2 in electricity as I don't have to use any Superchargers for that, so can charge overnight at 7.5p/kWh.

If you are in the Tesla price range (40k plus) I'd tend to agree with you. Having read the reviews of the MG4 I thought my time had come. So I recently arranged a week long hire for a trip to my brothers in Cumbria. Big mistake when compared to similarly priced ice cars, (Golf, Corolla, etc) the car is truly awful. Disappointing range, awful electrics, roadhandling. There's still huge gaps in the non Tesla charger trunk route if youre not happy to go miles off route in to town centres. And the 7.5 p kwh Octopus's tariff doesn't make sense other than a buying market share exercise to hike it up in the future to me either.

 

[Noddy]

If you are in the Tesla price range (40k plus) I'd tend to agree with you. Having read the reviews of the MG4 I thought my time had come. So I recently arranged a week long hire for a trip to my brothers in Cumbria. Big mistake when compared to similarly priced ice cars, (Golf, Corolla, etc) the car is truly awful. Disappointing range, awful electrics, roadhandling. There's still huge gaps in the non Tesla charger trunk route if youre not happy to go miles off route in to town centres. And the 7.5 p kwh Octopus's tariff doesn't make sense other than a buying market share exercise to hike it up in the future to me either.

This post appears to be entirely about spreading FUD.

Regarding the MG4. You are the first person I’ve seen in any medium (real life, professional car journalists, amateur YouTubers) to have such a negative review. Yes it’s not a Tesla but a Tesla will cost significantly more (probably twice as much if you are on some sort of finance/lease).

Regarding the charging networks, yes there are some gaps especially at motorway service areas (it seems very poor on the M6) but there are a combination of factors here, and if you look just off the motorway there are lots. Much is to do with getting grid connections (for example there is an 12 bay Ionity site at J44 which is complete but has been waiting for an DNO connection for a number of months now). Applegreens takeover of Welcome break has slowed the Gridserve expansion at motorway service areas as Applegreen are setting up (now installing) their own charger network. But it is improving for example: https://twitter.com/GinnyBuckley/status/1678150265424293890

Regarding Octopus: They are a business and they will put prices up and down. However, they are not a traditional established player. People with an Octopus EV tariff have actively moved there in the last few years and if Octopus start fleecing their customers they will simply move elsewhere.

 

[paul1609]

Regarding the MG4, I was myself surprised at how poor it was. I'd thought from the rave reviews it was a serious contender to lease, which is why I went to the bother of hiring one for a week. I've concluded that the reviews were probably comparing it to previous/ competitor EVs rather than price comparable Ice cars. Just the fact that you have to scroll through the entertainment system turning off the driver assist systems that don't work properly every time you start the car would drive me mad.

 

[Noddy]

Regarding the MG4, I was myself surprised at how poor it was. I'd thought from the rave reviews it was a serious contender to lease, which is why I went to the bother of hiring one for a week. I've concluded that the reviews were probably comparing it to previous/ competitor EVs rather than price comparable Ice cars. Just the fact that you have to scroll through the entertainment system turning off the driver assist systems that don't work properly every time you start the car would drive me mad.

Unfortunately, that is becoming increasingly common of all cars regardless of drivetrain (my dads ICE Skoda and my Cupra Born are exactly the same).

 

[trebor79]

A lot of people won't voluntarily switch until they can do all their journeys in an EV. A hybrid with a decent range is vastly superior to an EV if you semi regularly visit friends and family across country or need to travel long distance for work to places poorly located for rail travel.

Nope, EV is better than any hybrid. I regularly do 400 mile days in my Tesla and it's much cheaper than ICE or hybrid and journeys take no longer.
Charging takes place whilst I have a wee and buy some food, usually I'm getting notified the charge is finishing ust as I'm walking back to the car. Usually only 10-15 minutes is required.

As someone who regularly makes a 250 mile trip to see family (which I hasten to add is statistically rare given that in average only 8 trips are made of more than 50 miles a year - and we use up a few from other people) there's a need for us to take at least a short break at some point along the route (be that food, to use the loo or for some other reason) we aren't that far off thinking that an EV would be fine for all our travel.

You won't regret it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2023 ==

If you are in the Tesla price range (40k plus) I'd tend to agree with you. Having read the reviews of the MG4 I thought my time had come. So I recently arranged a week long hire for a trip to my brothers in Cumbria. Big mistake when compared to similarly priced ice cars, (Golf, Corolla, etc) the car is truly awful. Disappointing range, awful electrics, roadhandling. There's still huge gaps in the non Tesla charger trunk route if youre not happy to go miles off route in to town centres. And the 7.5 p kwh Octopus's tariff doesn't make sense other than a buying market share exercise to hike it up in the future to me either.

Several suppliers do similar tariffs. It's predicated upon avoiding curtailment fees to wind turbines etc during periods of lower demand vs production. Basically it's more cost effective to sell me cheap power than compensate generation asset owners for curtailment.
Sounds like you had the short range MG4. There are loads of other cars, VW ID range I quite like despite the bad press. I've been impressed with our Kia Niro EV, my Tesla M3 I bought used. Hyundai Kona, Ioniq 5 and Ioniq 6 Kia Ev6, Jaguar, BMW do some lovely EVs. Don't write it all off because you didn't like the MG4.
There are some huge in increases in motorway charging on the way. The number of chargers installed awaiting switch on or being installed I've lost count of this past few weeks.

 

[stuu]

I wonder if people who worry about charging times en route have ever timed how long it takes to stop and get petrol? I bet it takes longer than the average person thinks it does. Pumping the fuel, looking round the shop for something to eat/drink, going to the loo, queuing to pay etc. all adds up to a fairly long break, but because it is all in little bits it doesn't feel like that long

 

[DustyBin]

I wonder if people who worry about charging times en route have ever timed how long it takes to stop and get petrol? I bet it takes longer than the average person thinks it does. Pumping the fuel, looking round the shop for something to eat/drink, going to the loo, queuing to pay etc. all adds up to a fairly long break, but because it is all in little bits it doesn't feel like that long

True, but you don’t have to do all of those things. My usual stop takes around three minutes using pay-at-pump.

The “fear” for most people (baseless and/or irrational as it may be) is that a stop ends up taking longer than planned due to a shortage of chargers etc.

 

[trebor79]

I wonder if people who worry about charging times en route have ever timed how long it takes to stop and get petrol? I bet it takes longer than the average person thinks it does. Pumping the fuel, looking round the shop for something to eat/drink, going to the loo, queuing to pay etc. all adds up to a fairly long break, but because it is all in little bits it doesn't feel like that long

Exactly. The reality is I find I'm hurried up getting back to the car because it's finished charging before I'm ready to go (Tesla charge idle fees if you leave it after it's finished).

 

[jon0844]

Regarding the MG4, I was myself surprised at how poor it was. I'd thought from the rave reviews it was a serious contender to lease, which is why I went to the bother of hiring one for a week. I've concluded that the reviews were probably comparing it to previous/ competitor EVs rather than price comparable Ice cars. Just the fact that you have to scroll through the entertainment system turning off the driver assist systems that don't work properly every time you start the car would drive me mad.

I believe you can program one of the steering wheel shortcut buttons for this? Also the systems must apparently reset as they are part of what got the car the five star safety rating, meaning you must override things like lane keep assist every single time.

I'd expect this to now be the same for all new cars.

There have also been a lot of software updates to improve LKA, and maybe your car hadn't been done?

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder if people who worry about charging times en route have ever timed how long it takes to stop and get petrol? I bet it takes longer than the average person thinks it does. Pumping the fuel, looking round the shop for something to eat/drink, going to the loo, queuing to pay etc. all adds up to a fairly long break, but because it is all in little bits it doesn't feel like that long

I had quite a row with my dad about EV charging last week. He said he could never have an EV as he would have to waste time waiting whilst it charges. I then asked him:

1) how many times in the last decade has he driven more than 150 miles without stopping for at least 15 mins
2) how long it takes him to fill up his car.

Answers:

1) never
2) 15 minutes (he always makes a special trip to the supermarket 5 minutes away to fill up before a ‘long’ journey).

I said then said that he’s wasting 15 minutes every time he fills up, compared to literally never having to make a special trip or stop to specifically fill up ever again. He just couldn’t compute it. (And he’s a clever chap, really).

 

[Ken H]

Still doesnt cope with people who cant park on private land close to their house so they can charge on their domestic supply. The front of my 1850 house opens onto a public highway, then village green. I can stop to unload, not for an overnight charge.
No chargers in my village. Much of the parking is on street in a conservation area in a national park. My car is on street 150m away just now.
Then there are people in flats, houses in narrow streets, terraced houses.
Not everyone lives in a suburban post ww2 semi so they can charge at home.
Many council estates built pre 1960 didnt have facilities for cars.
How will EV's work in a street like this (In Gipton, Leeds)

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

(Link goes to Google Maps street view of narrow street of 1940's council houses in Gipton, Leeds)

 

[Chester1]

Nope, EV is better than any hybrid. I regularly do 400 mile days in my Tesla and it's much cheaper than ICE or hybrid and journeys take no longer.
Charging takes place whilst I have a wee and buy some food, usually I'm getting notified the charge is finishing ust as I'm walking back to the car. Usually only 10-15 minutes is required.

Why isn't everyone buying EVs then? I appreciate you are very enthusiastic about them but sales and government policy speak for themselves. They are not there yet in terms of range and cost. I wouldn’t buy an EV because I live in a flat and I can't get a charger in my allocated parking space. If I buy a house next it is highly likely to be a terrace with street parking. If I was determined then using commercial charging is possible but why would I choose to be entirely reliant on them until I have no other choice? A plug in hybrid is much more appealing to me and is the obvious choice when more enter the second hand market.

Politically we seem to be heading for a clash between people who are quasi religious about climate change and people who don't want to change their lives significantly. I am happy to make changes but I have limits on disadvantages that I prepared to accept for climate change. Plug in hybrids have most of the environmental benefits of EVs but the flexibility of ICEs.

 

[DustyBin]

Why isn't everyone buying EVs then? I appreciate you are very enthusiastic about them but sales and government policy speak for themselves. They are not there yet in terms of range and cost. I wouldn’t buy an EV because I live in a flat and I can't get a charger in my allocated parking space. If I buy a house next it is highly likely to be a terrace with street parking. If I was determined then using commercial charging is possible but why would I choose to be entirely reliant on them until I have no other choice? A plug in hybrid is much more appealing to me and is the obvious choice when more enter the second hand market.

Politically we seem to be heading for a clash between people who are quasi religious about climate change and people who don't want to change their lives significantly. I am happy to make changes but I have limits on disadvantages that I prepared to accept for climate change. Plug in hybrids have most of the environmental benefits of EVs but the flexibility of ICEs.

I disagree with your point regarding range, however the rest of your post is spot on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding the MG4, I was myself surprised at how poor it was. I'd thought from the rave reviews it was a serious contender to lease, which is why I went to the bother of hiring one for a week. I've concluded that the reviews were probably comparing it to previous/ competitor EVs rather than price comparable Ice cars. Just the fact that you have to scroll through the entertainment system turning off the driver assist systems that don't work properly every time you start the car would drive me mad.

Pretty much all cars now have the stupid touchscreens and menu systems. It's cheaper for the manufacturers than physical control panels and wiring. In my view they should be illegal for anything relating to progress or safety, which should be safely operable "blind" while moving and thus physical controls.

As for the MG4 you need to take into account the EV price premium. It's basically an electric Ford Kuga, that's what I would compare it to. It's not a premium car. Has anyone driven both and can compare them?

 

[jon0844]

Why isn't everyone buying EVs then?

They're still expensive because currently most EVs are SUVs/Crossovers, and a lot of people actually don't want a car like that. Those that do are buying them, and those that do a lot of driving are saving a lot of money (the more you use an EV, the quicker it pays for itself) so until we have more choice, there will still be people buying what few 1-1.5 litre petrol cars there are left.

Hybrids can fill in the gap in-between, but when prices come down and we see more 300-400 mile cars for sale, I think a lot of people won't want the extra weight and maintenance costs of an ICE engine with some batteries.

It's only 2023. I think a lot of people in the industry see 2025 as the real turning point, and by then we'll have more than Nissan Leafs and Zoes to choose from on the second hand market.

 

[tomuk]

They're still expensive because currently most EVs are SUVs/Crossovers, and a lot of people actually don't want a car like that.

No they are expensive because they cost more to make and manufacturers are applying premium prices to make more money. They are SUVs\Crossovers because that is what people want to buy.

 

[jon0844]

Batteries are getting cheaper all the time. Make a car with a smaller battery and you've got a cheaper car to sell. It's not difficult, and that's why more and more small cars are coming. Next year will see many models, and even VW is working on a small car of its own.

The fact Ford can't make a profit is neither here nor there, while the more expensive marques have reputations to retain and won't be building a cheap car anytime soon. It's just that the bigger car makers have had more money to invest in EV development, but now the Chinese (and Koreans) are taking over it doesn't really matter.

Why else is the car industry getting so terrified that it is telling us all that the Chinese will flick a kill switch and turn every car they make off? Who the hell believes that is even possible, let alone something they'd do?!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Still doesnt cope with people who cant park on private land close to their house so they can charge on their domestic supply. The front of my 1850 house opens onto a public highway, then village green. I can stop to unload, not for an overnight charge.
No chargers in my village. Much of the parking is on street in a conservation area in a national park. My car is on street 150m away just now.
Then there are people in flats, houses in narrow streets, terraced houses.
Not everyone lives in a suburban post ww2 semi so they can charge at home.
Many council estates built pre 1960 didnt have facilities for cars.
How will EV's work in a street like this (In Gipton, Leeds)

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

(Link goes to Google Maps street view of narrow street of 1940's council houses in Gipton, Leeds)

You need to get your head around the idea that not everyone needs to charge at home. Some people can charge at work, or the supermarket, or on street chargers, or at rapid chargers during longer journeys. I somewhat agree it isnt totally there yet but mass adoption of EVs do not need everyone to be able to charge at home. Infact I suspect most people won't charge at home in a decade or two.

Why isn't everyone buying EVs then?

You are ignoring the fact that they are growing in popularity year by year.

They are not there yet in terms of range and cost.

Cost yes. But they are getting cheaper.
And range? For most peoples driving they are fine. Despite all the talk about long trips most people jjut drive pretty short distances.

I wouldn’t buy an EV because I live in a flat and I can't get a charger in my allocated parking space. If I buy a house next it is highly likely to be a terrace with street parking. If I was determined then using commercial charging is possible but why would I choose to be entirely reliant on them until I have no other choice? A plug in hybrid is much more appealing to me and is the obvious choice when more enter the second hand market.

As above, people have to get their heads abound the idea of not needing to charge at home. You don't full up your ICE car at home so why need to charge an EV there?

 

[Ken H]

You need to get your head around the idea that not everyone needs to charge at home. Some people can charge at work, or the supermarket, or on street chargers, or at rapid chargers during longer journeys. I somewhat agree it isnt totally there yet but mass adoption of EVs do not need everyone to be able to charge at home. Infact I suspect most people won't charge at home in a decade or two.

The cost of charging away from home is a lot higher than charging off your domestic supply. So skewing the economics away from EV's

 

[jon0844]

People need to get over the battery anxiety issues, which exists more in the mind of a non-EV owner than an EV-owner.

I was one of those people who thought an early EV doing 100-odd miles or less was crazy (especially if paying Mini or BMW i3 money for a low-range car) compared to my 600+ mile diesel. But over time, I realised I rarely did long trips in the diesel - it was just a nice way to stop having to go and fill up often. Because of my driving requirements, I was filling up every 2 or 3 months!

So now I have no qualms about getting a cheaper EV with a range around 200 miles (which isn't far off what my other car did on a tank - and requiring higher octane petrol also) and as I rarely need to move lots of stuff or people, the cars I laughed at years ago are now closer to what I actually need. I'll hire a van/estate car for moving big stuff once every few years. Family over and too big to fit in a car? I'll hire a people carrier or we just get taxis.

As I've said many times, EVs are currently too expensive for those who don't drive a lot because they save money through cheaper charging vs fuel. The same argument for buying diesels. So if you aren't going to drive a lot, you can make so with a smaller battery car - which is then cheaper, and because of the lifespan of a modern battery you'll likely never 'make a dent' in the battery in terms of capacity so could probably run it for 10-15 years with ease, and have really low running costs.

 

[Chester1]

I had quite a row with my dad about EV charging last week. He said he could never have an EV as he would have to waste time waiting whilst it charges. I then asked him:

1) how many times in the last decade has he driven more than 150 miles without stopping for at least 15 mins
2) how long it takes him to fill up his car.

Answers:

1) never
2) 15 minutes (he always makes a special trip to the supermarket 5 minutes away to fill up before a ‘long’ journey).

I said then said that he’s wasting 15 minutes every time he fills up, compared to literally never having to make a special trip or stop to specifically fill up ever again. He just couldn’t compute it. (And he’s a clever chap, really).

Your Dad sounds like my Dad. Good luck to EV evangelists persauding them. My Dad will getting too old to drive in 2035 and at best his next car will be a hybrid. My mum never travels more than about 10 miles and her car is very old. I have said for years her next car should be an EV but they are just not interested, primarily because they will always buy the cheapest option even though they can afford a second hand small EV.

Is your Dad aware that EVs are automatics? That is a massive red flag for many people, despite it making very little difference these days.

They're still expensive because currently most EVs are SUVs/Crossovers, and a lot of people actually don't want a car like that. Those that do are buying them, and those that do a lot of driving are saving a lot of money (the more you use an EV, the quicker it pays for itself) so until we have more choice, there will still be people buying what few 1-1.5 litre petrol cars there are left.

Hybrids can fill in the gap in-between, but when prices come down and we see more 300-400 mile cars for sale, I think a lot of people won't want the extra weight and maintenance costs of an ICE engine with some batteries.

It's only 2023. I think a lot of people in the industry see 2025 as the real turning point, and by then we'll have more than Nissan Leafs and Zoes to choose from on the second hand market.

In long term my test for going for an EV is what happens if I set off from the North West first week of school holidays to go to the south coast. Will we be able to get there on one charge if we can't charge when we stop? Will there be massive queues for chargers? Will we need to make a massive diversion to find one?

No they are expensive because they cost more to make and manufacturers are applying premium prices to make more money. They are SUVs\Crossovers because that is what people want to buy.

There needs to be a break through budget EV with a range of 300 to 400 miles brand new. Something to replace the Fiesta for instance. Nissan Leaf is getting there but second hand ones have a low range.

You need to get your head around the idea that not everyone needs to charge at home. Some people can charge at work, or the supermarket, or on street chargers, or at rapid chargers during longer journeys. I somewhat agree it isnt totally there yet but mass adoption of EVs do not need everyone to be able to charge at home. Infact I suspect most people won't charge at home in a decade or two.

You are ignoring the fact that they are growing in popularity year by year.

Cost yes. But they are getting cheaper.
And range? For most peoples driving they are fine. Despite all the talk about long trips most people jjut drive pretty short distances.

As above, people have to get their heads abound the idea of not needing to charge at home. You don't full up your ICE car at home so why need to charge an EV there?

EVs are still a small proportion of new sales. I don't doubt they will get there eventually but 2035 for banning importation and manufacture of hybrids seems like a good choice by government. I will buy an EV when I can be as certain of charging during busy periods and in more remote areas as I can in being able to fill up before running out of fuel. I care about the environment enough to pay extra for a hybrid over an ICE but I won't choose a car which would be less flexible. I am aware I could have an EV without being able to charge at home but if I can afford a hybrid in a couple of years time why would I? I could have the best of both worlds for only slightly more money.

Climate change isn't the number one priority for many people and never will be. In another thread multiple people told me I should expect not to see my brother nor my girlfriend see her family (our collective family is spread over three continents). I am prepared to make some changes and pay more to go green but there are limits. I think I am very normal with that attitude.

 

[skyhigh]

There needs to be a break through budget EV with a range of 300 to 400 miles brand new.

Who actually needs to drive 400 miles without stopping on a regular basis?

A 250 mile range, rapid 150kW charging and plenty of chargers would suit 99.9% of the population. We just don't need massive batteries driving around for occasional use.

 

[trebor79]

Why isn't everyone buying EVs then? I appreciate you are very enthusiastic about them but sales and government policy speak for themselves. They are not there yet in terms of range and cost. I wouldn’t buy an EV because I live in a flat and I can't get a charger in my allocated parking space. If I buy a house next it is highly likely to be a terrace with street parking. If I was determined then using commercial charging is possible but why would I choose to be entirely reliant on them until I have no other choice? A plug in hybrid is much more appealing to me and is the obvious choice when more enter the second hand market.

Politically we seem to be heading for a clash between people who are quasi religious about climate change and people who don't want to change their lives significantly. I am happy to make changes but I have limits on disadvantages that I prepared to accept for climate change. Plug in hybrids have most of the environmental benefits of EVs but the flexibility of ICEs.

EV sales and market share are rising exponentially. And that's against a backdrop of FUD.
Government should be mandating that freeholders allow EV charge points to be installed - some flat car parks are being retrofitted and I think before too long this will be commonplace as it's going to be a deal breaker if there's no charging infrastructure. Similarly, solutions exist for those in houses with no off-street parking, just needs a bit of a push from local authorities and government to get them deployed.

 

[Chester1]

Who actually needs to drive 400 miles without stopping on a regular basis?

A 250 mile range, rapid 150kW charging and plenty of chargers would suit 99.9% of the population. We just don't need massive batteries driving around for occasional use.

There are plenty of things in life we don't need but are useful. The start of school holidays is a reasonable scenario that charging network needs to be able to handle. It will be a massive challenge when every car is an EV.

EV sales and market share are rising exponentially. And that's against a backdrop of FUD.
Government should be mandating that freeholders allow EV charge points to be installed - some flat car parks are being retrofitted and I think before too long this will be commonplace as it's going to be a deal breaker if there's no charging infrastructure. Similarly, solutions exist for those in houses with no off-street parking, just needs a bit of a push from local authorities and government to get them deployed.

It needs more than a bit of a push, it needs a massive and long push. UK law of seven years until new ICES are banned and twelve until new hybrids are banned is more ambitious than most of the west.

Parking allocations for my block are changing due to redevelopment. How would that be handled prior to everyone having an EV? My legal entitlement is to one parking space, not a specific space. That is normal for flats.

I find dislike of plug in hybrids same as dislike by many enthusiasts to bimodes. Its a bit weird frankly. They are clear and significant step forward despite some draw backs. Of course the long term solution is pure electric but they are good bridging solutions.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is your Dad aware that EVs are automatics?

Yes - he’s driven automatics for 15 years.

My Dad will getting too old to drive in 2035

My Dad is not far off being too old now. I have a difficult convo to have with him soon.