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Improving Clapham Junction

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Meerkat

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Shame some sidings weren’t built as part of the Nine Elms/Embassy Gardens redevelopment - as all electric they could be built over. just enough that space in Clapham sidings could be freed up for the supports for a complete over site development, including a proper transfer station all The way from Brighton Yard to the old sidings to the north east, and straighten up P7 so all trains can call.
Dont know if the Nine Elms market to the south of the line is up for redevelopment soon??
 
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JonathanH

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It wouldn't help passengers travelling from places like Guildford though. Not that I'm saying Crossrail 2 would be a bad thing if the business case stacked up. No idea if it does right now
Crossrail 2 is also now so unlikely to be built in the near future that most people reading this forum will never see it operating.

In theory it would help people travelling from Guildford as it would remove the inner services and allow more trains from Guildford to switch to the slow lines east of Wimbledon such that they could stop at Clapham Junction.
 

swt_passenger

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Crossrail 2 is also now so unlikely to be built in the near future that most people reading this forum will never see it operating.

In theory it would help people travelling from Guildford as it would remove the inner services and allow more trains from Guildford to switch to the slow lines east of Wimbledon such that they could stop at Clapham Junction.
IIRC one of the main benefits of removing those inner suburban services was quantified in the SW route study as allowing for about 7 or 8 trains per hour, (those peak services that currently transfer slow to fast from around Surbiton), to then stay on the slows.
 

The Ham

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What does that mean for Clapham Junction?

As @Bald Rick says, adds underground platforms and new accesses.

It wouldn't help passengers travelling from places like Guildford though. Not that I'm saying Crossrail 2 would be a bad thing if the business case stacked up. No idea if it does right now

Also as highlighted above extra services on the outer metro/longer distance services. The numbers roughly translate to 1tph for every 2tph which existed pre COVID.

Obviously there's going to be limitations on where can get those services. For example Portsmouth is highly unlikely to be able to gain many/any and so it may well be that Guildford could be at, or near, the start of services.

However even without extra services reaching Guildford, the fact that the other services through Woking would be more lightly loaded could mean less congestion on the services to Guildford.
 

JonathanH

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Also as highlighted above extra services on the outer metro/longer distance services. The numbers roughly translate to 1tph for every 2tph which existed pre COVID.

Obviously there's going to be limitations on where can get those services. For example Portsmouth is highly unlikely to be able to gain many/any and so it may well be that Guildford could be at, or near, the start of services.

However even without extra services reaching Guildford, the fact that the other services through Woking would be more lightly loaded could mean less congestion on the services to Guildford.
All of this is very hypothetical though when demand and revenue is highly unlikely to ever justify the service levels in 2019, let alone more services than back then.

The assumptions on which Crossrail 2 was built about the need to create extra space at Waterloo for longer distance services must be well off the mark now.
 

Bald Rick

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The assumptions on which Crossrail 2 was built about the need to create extra space at Waterloo for longer distance services must be well off the mark now.

Actually, not that much, even though SWR is one of the top/worst three TOCs for lost commuters*

The Crossrail 2 strategic outline business case back in 2026 (was it really 7 years ago :|) showed that extra capacity on the SWML was needed by 2031, and that is extra on top of that assumed to be already provided through Woking flyover plus ETCS+ATO on the fast lines plus some other smaller interventions (every train max length, changes to stopping patterns, etc).

What the reduction in commuting has done has put the demand trend back by about 10-15 years. If Crossrail 2 was given an unrestricted ‘green light’ on Monday, it is my estimate that it wouldn’t open in a way that would relieve the SWML until 2042.

* interestingly, it seems that those TOCs that have Sen the biggest reduction in commuting are currently seeing the biggest growth. In other words it is looking like the commuting return has simply been delayed for some TOCs more than others, which on reflection is obvious.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Actually, not that much, even though SWR is one of the top/worst three TOCs for lost commuters*

The Crossrail 2 strategic outline business case back in 2026 (was it really 7 years ago :|) showed that extra capacity on the SWML was needed by 2031, and that is extra on top of that assumed to be already provided through Woking flyover plus ETCS+ATO on the fast lines plus some other smaller interventions (every train max length, changes to stopping patterns, etc).

What the reduction in commuting has done has put the demand trend back by about 10-15 years. If Crossrail 2 was given an unrestricted ‘green light’ on Monday, it is my estimate that it wouldn’t open in a way that would relieve the SWML until 2042.

* interestingly, it seems that those TOCs that have Sen the biggest reduction in commuting are currently seeing the biggest growth. In other words it is looking like the commuting return has simply been delayed for some TOCs more than others, which on reflection is obvious.

A 10-15 setback is hardly apocalyptic though, that was always my estimate when certain parts of the political spectrum begun ringing the death knell for public transport investment after (or even before) COVID.

The 1989 Central London Route study thought that a Chelsea to Hackney Line or North/South Crossrail would be needed by 2001, so assuming that Crossrail got going in 1996 and Chenley got building in 2003, opening for 2011, it would have been built for exactly the same demand levels we see today.
 

zwk500

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A 10-15 setback is hardly apocalyptic though, that was always my estimate when certain parts of the political spectrum begun ringing the death knell for public transport investment after (or even before) COVID.
The financial impact of COVID has been rather more dramatic than the demand impact though. Somebody's got to pay for XR2, and after the, ahem, issues with Crossrail itself I can't imagine TfL or HMT are overly eager to open that particular account.
 

London Trains

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I'm not sure if Crossrail 2 is necessary, but the SWML definitely should be 6 tracked between Waterloo and Malden Junction (obviously still very expensive but significantly cheaper than CR2 and gives many of the same benefits to the SWML that CR2 would).
 

zwk500

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I'm not sure if Crossrail 2 is necessary, but the SWML definitely should be 6 tracked between Waterloo and Malden Junction (obviously still very expensive but significantly cheaper than CR2 and gives many of the same benefits to the SWML that CR2 would).
I'm far from convinced widening this section would be cheaper than XR2. You would need to rebuild the Brighton side of Clapham Junction as well as the SWML platforms, widen the embankment including reworking Pouparts Jn and then widen the viaduct through Vauxhall to Waterloo by 10m or so through residential south London (that's in the middle of being regenerated). And XR2 would also benefit the lines at the north end it plugged into, not just the South end.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm not sure if Crossrail 2 is necessary, but the SWML definitely should be 6 tracked between Waterloo and Malden Junction (obviously still very expensive but significantly cheaper than CR2 and gives many of the same benefits to the SWML that CR2 would).

The SWML is, of course, already 8 tracked between Waterloo and Clapham Junction. There is real estate right up to the boundary line along much of it - some of those blocks immediately adjacent are worth significant fractions of a billion quid, and there’s lots of them…
 

London Trains

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I'm far from convinced widening this section would be cheaper than XR2. You would need to rebuild the Brighton side of Clapham Junction as well as the SWML platforms, widen the embankment including reworking Pouparts Jn and then widen the viaduct through Vauxhall to Waterloo by 10m or so through residential south London (that's in the middle of being regenerated).
The SWML is, of course, already 8 tracked between Waterloo and Clapham Junction. There is real estate right up to the boundary line along much of it - some of those blocks immediately adjacent are worth significant fractions of a billion quid, and there’s lots of them…
This will definitely be an unpopular opinion, but I think the Windsor Lines could be reduced to 2 tracks between Waterloo and just before Clapham Junction with the 3rd Windsor track becoming the 6th SWML track (the layout would therefore be UW DW UF DF USF DSF US DS where U = Up, D = Down, F = Fast, SF = Semi Fast, S = Slow, W = Windsor Lines), and that would mean no major infrastructure works would be needed between Waterloo and Linford Street Junction.

From there, Linford Street Junction would need to be demolished to fit an 8th track and Queenstown Road station would probably need to be demolished too (Battersea Park station is next door so closing it shouldn't be too much of an issue), then from there 6 tracks should fit until Clapham Junction which obviously would need to be rebuilt.
 

zwk500

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This will definitely be an unpopular opinion, but I think the Windsor Lines could be reduced to 2 tracks between Waterloo and just before Clapham Junction with the 3rd Windsor track becoming the 6th SWML track (the layout would therefore be UW DW UF DF USF DSF US DS where U = Up, D = Down, F = Fast, SF = Semi Fast, S = Slow, W = Windsor Lines), and that would mean no major infrastructure works would be needed between Waterloo and Linford Street Junction.

From there, Linford Street Junction would need to be demolished to fit an 8th track and Queenstown Road station would probably need to be demolished too (Battersea Park station is next door so closing it shouldn't be too much of an issue), then from there 6 tracks should fit until Clapham Junction which obviously would need to be rebuilt.
You'd be wrong. The Windsor lines are looking at having the 4th track put back, if anything. There are various proposals that would allow the main lines to share the nearest Windsor line track although some of them are more feasible than others.
Closing Queenstown road wouldn't be the end of the world now the Northern Line is open, but it'd still meet stiff opposition. (As it happens, I support a proposal that involves rebuilding or closing Queenstown Road - switching the Windsors to Paired by use.)
 

devon_belle

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adds underground platforms and new accesses.
Sorry - I'm out of the loop - would the underground platforms be XR2, taking over the stoppers like XR1? In that case, could an argument be made for removing the fast platforms on the surface and using the space for a better alignment on the slows & Brighton side?
As it happens, I support a proposal that involves rebuilding or closing Queenstown Road - switching the Windsors to Paired by use.
I support that idea too. I guess that Queenstown Road has no scope/space for shifting the island platform over so that it serves has an SWML, DWF, UWF, platform, DWS, UWS, re-opened platform? Essentially adding in the old Nine Elms goods road (which was at one point a normal running line, I believe) and rebuilding the platform a few meters to the North :D
 

zwk500

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Sorry - I'm out of the loop - would the underground platforms be XR2, taking over the stoppers like XR1? In that case, could an argument be made for removing the fast platforms on the surface and using the space for a better alignment on the slows & Brighton side?
XR2 would enter the tunnels some way south of Clapham Junction and then yes, trains that are currently slow stoppers would be diverted down - believe the Chessington Branch is one that is often talked about. You would then be able to redistribute some trains that currently run fast onto the slows into Waterloo (allowing extra stops). However removal of fast platforms is not on the agenda, as far as I know.
I support that idea too. I guess that Queenstown Road has no scope/space for shifting the island platform over so that it serves has an SWML, DWF, UWF, platform, DWS, UWS, re-opened platform? Essentially adding in the old Nine Elms goods road (which was at one point a normal running line, I believe) and rebuilding the platform a few meters to the North :D
I believe there is space to have 8 tracks with a single island between what would be the Windsor Slows, but not a lot more. However it's complicated by being up on a bridge. Whether it's worth the cost of that work is another question, I would guess not.
 

The Ham

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I'm not sure if Crossrail 2 is necessary, but the SWML definitely should be 6 tracked between Waterloo and Malden Junction (obviously still very expensive but significantly cheaper than CR2 and gives many of the same benefits to the SWML that CR2 would).

If have to look for it, but there was a consultation on a 5th track Vs Crossrail 2, the conclusion was that whilst the 5th track option was cheaper the better value option (by some way) was building Crossrail 2.

(I don't recall if that considered the extra SWML services which could be generated or not)

Sorry - I'm out of the loop - would the underground platforms be XR2, taking over the stoppers like XR1? In that case, could an argument be made for removing the fast platforms on the surface and using the space for a better alignment on the slows & Brighton side?

Yes it's taking over some of the stoppers, however there's no plans to reduce on platforms, as it's looking at the potential of future growth.
 

London Trains

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If have to look for it, but there was a consultation on a 5th track Vs Crossrail 2, the conclusion was that whilst the 5th track option was cheaper the better value option (by some way) was building Crossrail 2.
5 tracking and 6 tracking are completely different though. A 5th track would mostly be used for peak extra services in one direction, whereas with 6 tracks, there would be 3 completely separate pairs of lines (slow, semi fast, fast), which would allow an uplift of frequencies across the SWR network.

It also works out perfectly that nearly every existing service falls perfectly into those 3 categories - slows being everything that branches off the SWML up to Malden Junction, semi fasts being everything that uses the slow lines past Surbiton or branches off just after Surbiton, and fasts being everything that uses the fast lines past Surbiton.

The only service that doesn't fit exactly into these categories is the Hampton Court service which definitely is a "slow" service but does not branch off the SWML until after Surbiton, but with 6 tracks, this service could be moved onto the "semi fast" lines (that would turn into the existing slow lines after Malden Junction), but it would mean it skips Earlsfield and Raynes Park (which shouldn't be an issue given nearly all of the slow services would be doubled in frequency with the 6 tracking).
 
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zwk500

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5 tracking and 6 tracking are completely different though. A 5th track would mostly be used for peak extra services in one direction, whereas with 6 tracks, there would be 3 completely separate pairs of lines (slow, semi fast, fast), which would allow an uplift of frequencies across the SWR network.

It also works out perfectly that nearly every existing service falls perfectly into those 3 categories - slows being everything that branches off the SWML up to Malden Junction, semi fasts being everything that uses the slow lines past Surbiton or branches off just after Surbiton, and fasts being everything that uses the fast lines past Surbiton.

The only service that doesn't fit exactly into these categories is the Hampton Court service which definitely is a "slow" service but does not branch off the SWML until after Surbiton, but with 6 tracks, this service could be moved onto the "semi fast" lines (that would turn into the existing slow lines after Malden Junction), but it would mean it skips Earlsfield and Raynes Park.
Have you actually looked at Google maps? You need an extra 10-15m width on the existing line throughout (don't forget you need more space to build than to run). At Wimbledon, Apex Rd/Wandsworth Rd/Mile St, Vauxhall, and Tinworth St/Randall Rd, this simply isn't there.
Compulsory purchase of the adjacent blocks and demolition of them would not only be ludicrously expensive it'd also just be pouring a jerry can of petrol on the raging bonfire that is the London Housing market. Any socio-economic benefit you may have achieved for the SW London suburbs is more than offset by booting people out of their brand new flats.
 

London Trains

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Have you actually looked at Google maps? You need an extra 10-15m width on the existing line throughout (don't forget you need more space to build than to run). At Wimbledon, Apex Rd/Wandsworth Rd/Mile St, Vauxhall, and Tinworth St/Randall Rd, this simply isn't there.
Compulsory purchase of the adjacent blocks and demolition of them would not only be ludicrously expensive it'd also just be pouring a jerry can of petrol on the raging bonfire that is the London Housing market. Any socio-economic benefit you may have achieved for the SW London suburbs is more than offset by booting people out of their brand new flats.
As I mentioned above, my plan would not need any works north/east of the Linford Street curve as I would convert the 3rd Windsor line track into the 6th SWML track, so none of the locations you mention except for Wimbledon would be affected.

Wimbledon Station would need rebuilding, but the new layout would fit entirely on the existing station site, with the trams moving out of the station. The only building that would need to be compulsory purchased and demolished is Wimbledon Bridge House, an office block (and in all honesty getting rid of it would be good for the town centre, and would allow some of the sharp bends on the one way system to be removed).

The fast lines would not need platforms, so the new layout would be:

US |5 6| USF UF DF DSF |7 8| DS RT |9

(where U = Up, D = Down, R = Reversible, F = Fast, S = Slow, SF = Semi Fast, T = Thameslink).

The trams would be moved out of the station into a new terminus directly opposite the station - the line would rise on its existing alignment after Dundonald Road up to the same level as Wimbledon Bridge, and the new tram terminus would be directly above the SWML across the road from the station, exactly where Wimbledon Bridge House is currently, and would have (at least) 4 platforms to allow significant frequency improvements to the Tramlink network (and it would reduce the cost of a new line to Sutton as it would not require a new terminus at South Wimbledon or Colliers Wood).

The approach from Raynes Park already has 6 tracks, 2 being for Thameslink, so they would become the SWML tracks and a new reversible 7th track would be built alongside for Thameslink, which would be entirely on Network Rail land apart from requiring 2 houses at the end of Merton Hall Road to be demolished.

My idea for Wimbledon is certainly is a million times better than some of the plans for CR2 which involve demolishing most of Wimbledon town centre!

And yes, I have looked at Google Maps all the way along the section I propose for 6 tracking, and it is completely possible with minimal compulsory purchasing being necessary - the only properties I think will be affected are a couple of houses on St John's Hill and Strath Terrace that are against the current retaining wall on the southern approach to Clapham Junction, a small pub at Earlsfield, Wimbledon Bridge House and a couple of houses at the end of Merton Hall Road as I mentioned above and maybe part of some back gardens on Toynbee Road during construction.
 
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infobleep

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IIRC one of the main benefits of removing those inner suburban services was quantified in the SW route study as allowing for about 7 or 8 trains per hour, (those peak services that currently transfer slow to fast from around Surbiton), to then stay on the slows.
That was my understanding too. I guess if that allowed more fast service then none would have been able to stop at Clapham Junction anyway but if it allowed an off-peak level of service through Clapham Junction then trains could.

Although they say fewer people are travelling, they are still operating at a high frequency in the morning. Therefore there must still be enough people to justify not being able to stop at Clapham Junction, along with the need to run the high frequency of services.

From Woking the 07:13 is fast. Then the next fast is at 08:46

In between there are 3 services where you change at Surbiton with a fare and 6 where National Rail Enquiries recommend changing at London Waterloo and they can provide no fare. With both, there are faster unofficial journey opportunities as the minimum connection time at Surbtion is 6 minutes and it's the same platform change. Also, lots of trains depart south from London Waterloo within 15 minutes of one's arrival. Only those with knowledge or understanding of how the railways work would know or figure this out though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Until last less people use the railways, trains won't be stopping at Clapham Junction but I don't want less people using the railways as I want them to be popular. Not that I'm for people all working in offices if they don't need to.
 

Bald Rick

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XR2 would enter the tunnels some way south of Clapham Junction and then yes, trains that are currently slow stoppers would be diverted down - believe the Chessington Branch is one that is often talked about.

Some way South being between Wimbledon and Rayners Park.


If have to look for it, but there was a consultation on a 5th track Vs Crossrail 2, the conclusion was that whilst the 5th track option was cheaper the better value option (by some way) was building Crossrail 2.

There has never been a consultation on the 5th track proposal. Indeed there has never been a design for it.

A 5th track would mostly be used for peak extra services in one direction,
The problem being it enables extra services in to Waterloo - how do they then get out?

Wimbledon Station would need rebuilding, but the new layout would fit entirely on the existing station site, with the trams moving out of the station. The only building that would need to be compulsory purchased and demolished is Wimbledon Bridge House, an office block (and in all honesty getting rid of it would be good for the town centre, and would allow some of the sharp bends on the one way system to be removed).

Glad to see you’ve done the engineering feasibility work, and worked out all the construction planning …
 

swt_passenger

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There has never been a consultation on the 5th track proposal. Indeed there has never been a design for it.

The problem being it enables extra services in to Waterloo - how do they then get out?

Glad to see you’ve done the engineering feasibility work, and worked out all the construction planning …
So are you suggesting the 5th track drawing I extracted from the London and Se RUS, and posted here:
…was just a back of a fag packet sketch, and had no supporting planning at all? :D
I see though it didn’t actually provide a new extra track between Clapham Jn and Waterloo, just a re-purposing of the existing lines on the Windsor side.
 

Bald Rick

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was just a back of a fag packet sketch, and had no supporting planning at all? :D

A bit more than a fag packet - a decent envelope at least :D.
No detail engineering assessment, certainly. (I happen to know who drew that sketch :))
 

HSTEd

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Trying to squeeze additional tracks through south london on the surface/viaduct would seem to be the height of insanity.

The disruption such work would cause would turn it into the biggest vote loser since the London Ringways scheme!

The only sensible option is Crossrail 2, which provides more capacity more efficeintly than two additional tracks on the surface ever could, and enables key new technologies for the future of the railway.
Just annoying that the specification has almost certainly been written, as with Crossrail 1 to prevent ever going to RER A type trains.
 

JonathanH

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Just annoying that the specification has almost certainly been written, as with Crossrail 1 to prevent ever going to RER A type trains.
Out of interest, what do you mean by RER A type trains? A train with double deck accommodation?

How does the dwell time get affected by this relative to a 345 type standee train?
 

HSTEd

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Out of interest, what do you mean by RER A type trains? A train with double deck accommodation?
Yes, double deck accomodation to enable huge peak time capacity.
How does the dwell time get affected by this relative to a 345 type standee train?
In theory dwell time should be increased, but the reality is the RER A operates at comparable service densities to the desired levels for Crossrail-type schemes, so I don't think its at all clear what the difference is in reality.
 

SynthD

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After the footbridge, start preparing for the whole rebuild, such as move the depot out?
 

JonathanH

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After the footbridge, start preparing for the whole rebuild, such as move the depot out?
Wouldn't a better approach be to just use the air rights of the depot space to raise finance for any rebuild, rather than actually moving out? Given the size of the site, it is interesting that the value of the land hasn't ever been used to pay for a rebuild of the station, although I appreciate that developing the space above the platforms somewhat constrains what could then be done in the future.

It always strikes me seeing trains crawling in and out of the depot and sidings that they could be upgraded for faster approach speeds and a simplified throat. That said, presumably some land has to be retained as a worksite for Crossrail 2.

Would there really be money on offer from any future government for any future rebuild in the absence of some sort of external development financing?

Interestingly, the Crossrail 2 safeguarding doesn't appear to include the sidings, but does cover the pointwork for them.
https://crossrail2.co.uk/discover/safeguarding/
Transport infrastructure, like Crossrail 2, takes a long time to plan, design and then build.
During this time, we have to make sure that the space needed for the new railway, above and below ground, fits in with proposed new development around it. This is done through a process called “safeguarding”.

Safeguarding is a formal process, undertaken by the Department for Transport (DfT), to protect land required for major new infrastructure projects from future development. This page provides more information about safeguarding, maps of the safeguarded areas and contact details if you wish to discuss this in more detail.

You can explore the 2015 safeguarded route below, the final safeguarded route is subject to change following further public consultation.
 
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The Ham

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A bit more than a fag packet - a decent envelope at least :D.
No detail engineering assessment, certainly. (I happen to know who drew that sketch :))

I knew that there was something (I did say I would have to look it up, it must have been the RUS) where the two were assessed and the 5th track was determined to be not as good.
 
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