Edinburgh & the Lothians bus network speculations & ideas

[stevenedin]

It would be good to have a link from Broxburn to Fauldhouse. There hasn’t been one for a while now. Also Whitburn needs another option from Livingston.

 

[roadierway77]

I wouldn't like to see Lothian try and build a network in West Lothian again. Competition has been a disaster for bus services and given how much McGill’s have reduced their network and how little they seem to care about Eastern Scottish compared to Midland Bluebird, I doubt there are any potential routes or corridors that would bring in money. Resources could be much better used elsewhere in the city. If anything else is to be explored at Livingston depot, it should be tenders and improvements to the X18/X27/X28. Leave West Lothian to McGill’s and focus on the express routes. However whether that will happen or not, who knows. Lothian have made unwise decisions in the past *cough* EX1 and EX2 *cough* so perhaps they'll have another go at West Lothian at some point in the future.

 

[danielhogg2005]

It would be good to have a link from Broxburn to Fauldhouse. There hasn’t been one for a while now. Also Whitburn needs another option from Livingston.

My idea is that they should reintroduce the 276 between Broxburn and Loganlea as it was then extend it to Fauldhouse, they should also reintroduce the 275 as it was between Broxburn and Seafield then extend it to Whitburn to provide them a bus service, then if it was possible to reintroduce the 280 as it was but that seems more unlikely than the 275 or 276, if they wanted to aswell reintroduce the 281 as it was then if they could get ahold of any tenders then get the 31 for all days and try renumber it 231 and also get the 40/X40 but make all X40 journeys run via Ratho and all journeys numbered X40 so its an hourly service on that route too.

This is all my idea and this is unlikely to happen but its an idea.

 

[mb88]

I think the best we can hope for in terms of West Lothian is some minor council-funded extensions/amendments to the current services (maybe sending the X27 or X28 to Blackridge for example), or a modest increase to the frequency of the X27/X28. Large scale returns of any of the other services (270, 276 etc) either in their previous forms or modified lies purely in the realms of fantasy.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

My idea is that they should reintroduce the 276 between Broxburn and Loganlea as it was then extend it to Fauldhouse, they should also reintroduce the 275 as it was between Broxburn and Seafield then extend it to Whitburn to provide them a bus service, then if it was possible to reintroduce the 280 as it was but that seems more unlikely than the 275 or 276, if they wanted to aswell reintroduce the 281 as it was then if they could get ahold of any tenders then get the 31 for all days and try renumber it 231 and also get the 40/X40 but make all X40 journeys run via Ratho and all journeys numbered X40 so its an hourly service on that route too.

This is all my idea and this is unlikely to happen but its an idea.

Honestly this is how I would see the peak West Lothian network!

EDINBURGH EXPRESS SERVICES
X17 - Edinburgh to Livingston
X18 - Edinburgh to Fauldhouse
X27 - Edinburgh to Whitburn
X28 - Edinburgh to Blackridge

WEST LOTHIAN SERVICES

40 - St John's Hospital to Royal Infirmary via Ratho (no X40)

231 - Bathgate to Livingston via Linlithgow
275 - Whitburn to Gyle Centre via Kirkliston/Winnchburgh

276 - Fauldhouse to Gyle Centre via Loganlea/Livingston

Other Services
20 - Ratho to Chesser via Wester Hailes
43 - Queensferry to Edinburgh
63 - Queensferry to Balerno via Kirkliston

N43 Edinburgh to Kirkliston (one way loop before returning via Queensferry)

 

[stevenedin]

Honestly this is how I would see the peak West Lothian network!

EDINBURGH EXPRESS SERVICES
X17 - Edinburgh to Livingston
X18 - Edinburgh to Fauldhouse
X27 - Edinburgh to Whitburn
X28 - Edinburgh to Blackridge

WEST LOTHIAN SERVICES

40 - St John's Hospital to Royal Infirmary via Ratho (no X40)

231 - Bathgate to Livingston via Linlithgow
275 - Whitburn to Gyle Centre via Kirkliston/Winnchburgh

276 - Fauldhouse to Gyle Centre via Loganlea/Livingston

Other Services
20 - Ratho to Chesser via Wester Hailes
43 - Queensferry to Edinburgh
63 - Queensferry to Balerno via Kirkliston

N43 Edinburgh to Kirkliston (one way loop before returning via Queensferry)

I like these ideas and they could work although for the X18 and X28, they could run to Fauldhouse (X18) and Blackridge (X28) once an hour and at other times terminate at Whitburn (X18) and Bathgate (X28).

 

[danielhogg2005]

275 - Whitburn to Gyle Centre via Kirkliston/Winnchburgh

276 - Fauldhouse to Gyle Centre via Loganlea/Livingston

For Kirkliston and Winchburgh they could just run an individual service, I would say also reintroducing service 287 between Bathgate and Kirkliston (via Wester Inch, Blackburn, Livingston Centre, Howden, St John's, Deer Park, Broxburn and Winchburgh). Services 275 & 276 could just run to the Gyle Centre direct.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I like these ideas and they could work although for the X18 and X28, they could run to Fauldhouse (X18) and Blackridge (X28) once an hour and at other times terminate at Whitburn (X18) and Bathgate (X28).

They could work because worse case scenario they could cut the services back to those areas if the extensions don't work out.

For Kirkliston and Winchburgh they could just run an individual service, I would say also reintroducing service 287 between Bathgate and Kirkliston (via Wester Inch, Blackburn, Livingston Centre, Howden, St John's, Deer Park, Broxburn and Winchburgh). Services 275 & 276 could just run to the Gyle Centre direct.

That is also true, I was just thinking of an alternative if Lothian never got the 63 from McGill's so Kirkliston could be covered.

 

[danielhogg2005]

That is also true, I was just thinking of an alternative if Lothian never got the 63 from McGill's so Kirkliston could be covered.

It would be a nice alternative if Lothian didn't get the 63 but for people travelling from Livingston or Broxburn to the Gyle it would increase journey time for them.

 

[DunsBus]

I think the best we can hope for in terms of West Lothian is some minor council-funded extensions/amendments to the current services (maybe sending the X27 or X28 to Blackridge for example), or a modest increase to the frequency of the X27/X28. Large scale returns of any of the other services (270, 276 etc) either in their previous forms or modified lies purely in the realms of fantasy.

Exactly this. Lothian Country cut their internal West Lothian services because they weren't making money. The concentration on the Edinburgh - West Lothian services has stabilised its network. The likes of the 280 and the "X17-in-disguise" 276 have gone and won't be returning in any shape or form.

 

[Ding Ding]

Exactly this. Lothian Country cut their internal West Lothian services because they weren't making money. The concentration on the Edinburgh - West Lothian services has stabilised its network. The likes of the 280 and the "X17-in-disguise" 276 have gone and won't be returning in any shape or form.

100% correct. Lothian Country will not re introduce these services. McGill's run to Blackridge and Fauldhouse, so there's no need for another operator; it is not financially viable. LCB are in for a service, or alterations to services, that attracts council subsidies, simple.
As has been stated by DunsBus, LCB have stabilised their network and are doing well as far as loadings are concerned. They have neither the buses nor the staff to introduce these fantasy routes that people are talking about.

McGill's will not be renewing the 20 & 63, so we'll have to see what they do with the extra buses and drivers that gives them. It may be that they can operate their services without as many cancellations, but that is it. They have lost more drivers to LCB since the recent pay increase, and continue to do so; the differential will increase next year as well, so it's not good when it comes to trying to retain drivers.
The only way LCB would, or could re introduce any fantasy routes, would be if McGill's decided that the service work they have in West Lothian is no longer financially viable, and they withdrew from these areas to concentrate on Bright Bus and Flix, but I can't see that happening at this time.

 

[danielhogg2005]

Instead of a fantasy network, more logical thinking would suggest if McGill's where able to they could improve existing services in the area, the best changes could be to extend the 25 to Blackridge and have the 21 terminate at Bathgate or Armadale, then for services 23, 25, 26, X22 & X24 a later evening timetable would benefit people alot aswell as having a Sunday Service for those services are a realistic solution to West Lothain.

 

[LiviCrazy]

The other question I would ask is how willing would the public be to trust LCB in those areas. They may have low trust and like in McGill's but, despite decreased frequencies and operating times they’ve (McGill’s and First) continued to serve them throughout the last five years whereas LCB chopped and changed constantly. The only corridor consistently covered by LCB has been the X18 route and the Bathgate-Livingston-Edinburgh corridor.

For most people, the one thing they want when making a travel choice or even a choice of where to buy a house, is knowing that the bus route will be there month-to-month, I think LCB burned a lot of bridges there.

A couple of minor tweaks I think both companies could do would be, extend x18 to Heartlands estate to improve connections there and McGill’s should extend the 23 to Ingliston P&R to provide a connection with the tram.

 

[Aaronb2601]

If McGill’s were to ever withdraw from West Lothian, would LCB cover the Shotts-Livingston route? I’m aware Shotts technically isn’t West Lothian so I’m unsure.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

If McGill’s were to ever withdraw from West Lothian, would LCB cover the Shotts-Livingston route? I’m aware Shotts technically isn’t West Lothian so I’m unsure.

I doubt it to be honest. Whitburn is as far as they probably will go, otherwise we would have gotten a service to Harthill.

 

[Ding Ding]

The other question I would ask is how willing would the public be to trust LCB in those areas. They may have low trust and like in McGill's but, despite decreased frequencies and operating times they’ve (McGill’s and First) continued to serve them throughout the last five years whereas LCB chopped and changed constantly. The only corridor consistently covered by LCB has been the X18 route and the Bathgate-Livingston-Edinburgh corridor.

For most people, the one thing they want when making a travel choice or even a choice of where to buy a house, is knowing that the bus route will be there month-to-month, I think LCB burned a lot of bridges there.

A couple of minor tweaks I think both companies could do would be, extend x18 to Heartlands estate to improve connections there and McGill’s should extend the 23 to Ingliston P&R to provide a connection with the tram.

I think people really have to take a minute to think of what they post. The public, 99.9% of the time, take the first bus that comes along, unless that bus doesn't serve their purpose. It has nothing to do with levels of trust, it's simply to do with time, if I don't get on this bus, how long will the next one be, if it turns up.
If LCB did, for whatever reason go back to the areas talked about, and it would only be if McGill's were no longer around, they would be the
only bus people could travel on, so really, it's Hobsons Choice isn't it, nothing to do with trust ?
The reason LCB chopped and changed, was because they were trying different routes to see how the loadings were. They persevered for a while, but found out they were not financially viable, hence withdrawing or changing the parts that didn't make financial sense. Wester Inch was a prime example, loads of houses, but passenger loads woeful. I have said before, West Lothian has a very high level of car ownership, and a reasonably decent train service, so it is very hard for bus companies to make enough money to offer fantasy routes.
Public transport is a commercial enterprise and has to offer a return, if it doesn't, it doesn't run. These are the cold hard facts.
As regards the proposal to provide a connection with the tram, people don't travel most of the way by bus, to then get off, wait on a tram, to then pay more money to travel into town.

 

[LiviCrazy]

I think people really have to take a minute to think of what they post. The public, 99.9% of the time, take the first bus that comes along, unless that bus doesn't serve their purpose. It has nothing to do with levels of trust, it's simply to do with time, if I don't get on this bus, how long will the next one be, if it turns up.
If LCB did, for whatever reason go back to the areas talked about, and it would only be if McGill's were no longer around, they would be the
only bus people could travel on, so really, it's Hobsons Choice isn't it, nothing to do with trust ?
The reason LCB chopped and changed, was because they were trying different routes to see how the loadings were. They persevered for a while, but found out they were not financially viable, hence withdrawing or changing the parts that didn't make financial sense. Wester Inch was a prime example, loads of houses, but passenger loads woeful. I have said before, West Lothian has a very high level of car ownership, and a reasonably decent train service, so it is very hard for bus companies to make enough money to offer fantasy routes.
Public transport is a commercial enterprise and has to offer a return, if it doesn't, it doesn't run. These are the cold hard facts.
As regards the proposal to provide a connection with the tram, people don't travel most of the way by bus, to then get off, wait on a tram, to then pay more money to travel into town.

I think that is true for pensioners and u22s, but for most people they buy season tickets or month tickets. People will apply for jobs based on what buses connect their areas, or they may decide to relocate based on what public transport connections they have.

Sadly most in West Lothian have switched away from public transport entirely due to unreliability and constant changing routes.

I get that they had to cut some routes, but changing so frequently never gave them the chance to build regular custom, people didn’t know the routes as they hadn’t existed for long enough to truly bed in.

I will say from my own perspective that I stuck with First/McGill’s precisely for that reason, Lothian had done it before in West Lothian, short term projects that eventually left the areas.

Also trust does go a long way in public transport, people stick with what they know. That’s why LCB struggled to push First out on the 26 corridor and going back to the early 2000s bus war that’s why First never had a huge amount of success in Edinburgh as the locals preferred their familiar Lothian buses even if the First service was faster/cheaper.

 

[GusB]

Could we please stay on topic? This thread is for ideas about new routes etc. and not a general West Lothian transport discussion.

 

[ScotRail158725]

The 30 will no doubt get re-routed via the A1 to Queen Margaret so it'll be double decker, it's only a matter of time..

Even better, cut it back to Fort Kinnaird and use deckers to drop the frequency to every 12 minutes. Save on resources by about 3 buses AND its an increase in capacity

 

[paul47B]

What happened to my my idea for the X62 going to Melrose and Howgate? Is Borders Buses not included in these discussions?

 

[GusB]

What happened to my my idea for the X62 going to Melrose and Howgate? Is Borders Buses not included in these discussions?

This thread is for ideas about services in Edinburgh and the Lothians. Melrose is in the Borders, so your post was off-topic. Please make sure that you post in the correct thread in future.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Even better, cut it back to Fort Kinnaird and use deckers to drop the frequency to every 12 minutes. Save on resources by about 3 buses AND its an increase in capacity

Honestly I feel like the A1 routing works better overall than having a double decker 30 sit at Fort Kinnaird West, it still serves the uni and gives folk in Southside area a direct bus to QMU.

it is only a matter of time before the 30 is gone altogether in Newcraighall, so hopefully this next change will see the final outcome of this, if they want to push folk on the 46/48 then this is the way to do it.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Honestly I feel like the A1 routing works better overall than having a double decker 30 sit at Fort Kinnaird West, it still serves the uni and gives folk in Southside area a direct bus to QMU.

it is only a matter of time before the 30 is gone altogether in Newcraighall, so hopefully this next change will see the final outcome of this, if they want to push folk on the 46/48 then this is the way to do it.

The 30 is a fresh air express beyond Fort Kinnaird these days and rerouting it via the A1 helps it even less. The majority of people at QMU these days use the train. And even then the 4 is still there which uses the A1

 

[EdinRH]

Would changing the terminus of the 9 from King's Buildings to Cameron Toll be a good idea? I can imagine more people would want to go to/from a shopping centre with a large Sainsbury's than to a university campus at night time/at weekends/during university vacations. It could still serve the bus stops on West Mains Road currently used by the 38 for people who do want to go to/from King's Buildings and would actually be closer to some University buildings than the current stop is.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The 30 is a fresh air express beyond Fort Kinnaird these days and rerouting it via the A1 helps it even less. The majority of people at QMU these days use the train. And even then the 4 is still there which uses the A1

Well given the fact that when the last service change took place was when the universities ended for the semester, it could change in the coming month, and while the 4 does offer a direct A1 service, the 30 also running via the A1 after Fort Kinnaird could be useful for the students in the Southside - Niddrie area.

Would changing the terminus of the 9 from King's Buildings to Cameron Toll be a good idea? I can imagine more people would want to go to/from a shopping centre with a large Sainsbury's than to a university campus at night time/at weekends/during university vacations. It could still serve the bus stops on West Mains Road currently used by the 38 for people who do want to go to/from King's Buildings and would actually be closer to some University buildings than the current stop is.

Honestly I think it would be more likely to extend to Royal Infirmary than Cameron Toll but since the 24/38 already offer the connection on this route I don't see it being worth the trouble, but it our be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Well given the fact that when the last service change took place was when the universities ended for the semester, it could change in the coming month, and while the 4 does offer a direct A1 service, the 30 also running via the A1 after Fort Kinnaird could be useful for the students in the Southside - Niddrie area.

I have to disagree there, if there was a demand for QMU to Niddrie, southside etc.. they’d already be using the 30. They done and speeding it up by 5 minutes on the A1 will make little difference if any

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I have to disagree there, if there was a demand for QMU to Niddrie, southside etc.. they’d already be using the 30. They done and speeding it up by 5 minutes on the A1 will make little difference if any

But what I'm saying is that during the term time the demand is going to be bigger, it's like when the 25 gets decreased during the summer and increased every September to accommodate the Heriot Watt students.

 

[paul47B]

I think that the 22, 24 and 45 will be converted to single deck to allow 30 to become double deck. The 30 would obviously need to be diverted via A1 if continuing to serve QMU. The decision could be to turn it at the Fort, we will soon find out

 

[VioletEclipse]

I think that the 22, 24 and 45 will be converted to single deck to allow 30 to become dd. The 30 would obviously need to be diverted via A1 if continuing to serve qmu. The decision could be to turn it at the fort, we will soon find out

the 24 and 45 are mostly decker operated these days, but neither services are usually busy outwith rush hour so could probably go back to single deck operation without too much issue. I'm less sure about the 22, but I can imagine it happening.

 

[zjsptgzxyspks]

The 9 does need to terminate at Kings Buildings as the student demand is extremely high during the rush hours term time. It's full and standing before it even gets a chance to depart. If extended to Cameron Toll just imagine some 100 students flooding the narrow West Mains Rd.