Making good value tickets hard to buy

[Tazi Hupefi]

Whether we like it or not, the privatisation of our railways happened, and although some fares did get protected, free market economics and market pricing were thought to be the future, albeit capped to some extent by the regulated fare(s).

If anything kills rangers/rovers off, it will be if the costs associated with making them digital /smart are prohibitive or require significant effort, or if a larger PAYG/Contactless scheme ultimately needs to be simplified.

Railway pricing teams aren't sat there waiting to remove stuff for the sake of it - most have an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to their work - there is plenty enough to do without some local rail user group kicking up a fuss because you've just deleted a local ranger ticket for their branch line that your sales stats show nobody actually buys (in any real quantity). Before you know it you've got a letter from someone obscure MP, tourist offices, enthusiasts start writing in complaining (even if they've clearly never bought one etc). It just isn't worth the hassle without something triggering a removal or change.

As above, there's also a small handful of (still unprotected) rovers with no historical paperwork available - and unpicking some of that is again just more effort for little gain, although if the desire was there, the product would go if necessary.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think there needs to be distinction drawn between PTE tickets which just happen to be set up as a ranger type ticket for convenience of existing systems and actual rail ranger/rover products the rail industry offers commercially. The former do usually offer good value to the passenger, although mainly because they are essentially subsidised by the relevant local authority for the greater local good.

TOCs selling PTE "rangers" are essentially just authorised resellers, and it wouldn't be their call on how to market or advertise these products even if they wanted to. I suspect these products don't have too long left in any event, as account based ticketing / PAYG caps become more affordable to implement. The demise of the Travelcard in London will probably be an interesting case study in many other areas.

To be fair that is a good point. In this case it probably is more of the former. And I know there has been some discussion about the same fare being made available via payg / contactless methods (and the relevant rail only payg scheme that exists has been priced and zoned in the same way as this ticket I am talking about). But how difficult the ticket is to buy and then use (half the staff have no idea what they are looking at when presenting with such a ticket) it really isn't very customer / passenger friendly.

Railway pricing teams aren't sat there waiting to remove stuff for the sake of it

There have been real examples of pricing being changed or tickets being removed because they were deemed as being too cheap after they were highlighted on this forum. Now most of those are likely "loophole" tickets where the ToC's argument is that they should never have been good value anyway, but the fact remains that good value tickets have been removed in the past. And even if it isn't intentional, fare "simplification" often does result in cheaper fares being removed even if it is by accident (I had to argue a fair bit with GWR recently because they removed the period returns for some flows which increased costs by ~30% in the name of "simplification").

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Northern submission on ticket office closures shows a very low take up of rovers and rangers - often less than one a day at even major stations.
So while us gricers find them very useful, the general public doesn't.
The privatised equivalent would be freedom of particular operator networks, but they are hard to find (Merseyrail's Daysaver is one).
I haven't seen "Freedom of Avanti" tickets, and you have to jump through hoops to get the Northern equivalent (localised purchases etc).
Similar offers in the Netherlands are tied to retail purchases.
Germany has a good range of go-anywhere regional tickets, but long-distance trains (ICE/IC/EC) are excluded.
Wales' rover tickets are tied to local government boundaries, rendering them poor value for the railway network.
And I might mention that Wales, Scotland and England concessionary travel systems are still not integrated as originally intended, so they don't work across the borders.
So I can get free bus travel over 150 miles to or in Cardiff but not in nearby Chester/Liverpool (and vice versa).

 

[12LDA28C]

The Northern submission on ticket office closures shows a very low take up of rovers and rangers - often less than one a day at even major stations.
So while us gricers find them very useful, the general public doesn't.

It's a strange conclusion to come to that the 'general public doesn't find rovers and rangers useful' when these tickets are not promoted and 99.9% of the general public are most likely totally unaware of their existence.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's a strange conclusion to come to that the 'general public doesn't find rovers and rangers useful' when these tickets are not promoted and 99.9% of the general public are most likely totally unaware of their existence.

Northern is one of the TOCs that has previously made some effort to promote their main rangers and rovers through leaflets, posters and general marketing, as well as availability at self service machines - the fact that demand remains low isn't connected to a lack of knowledge. Most people just want a simple single or return to their nearest town/shopping centre/hospital/place of work. Those travelling further want the same, albeit are more price conscious and want a seat reservation and who are happy to travel on a specific service.

Who exactly do you think the demographic is who wants a ranger or rover ticket to zig zag around a particular region for 4 days in 8, let alone 7 days straight. Even with the increased demand for stay at home holidays, exceptionally few non-enthusiasts buy them. A couple of years ago, one particular rover was rarely issued without a PRIV discount applied, which further gives you an idea who is using these!

As I've mentioned before, I am aware that some passengers at ticket offices have even been proactively offered ranger or rover tickets where it would have been more cost effective, and they've outright refused them - they'd rather pay the £1 or £2 more for something that feels familiar, and less fiddly in the case of dating boxes etc. Although I doubt it crossed their minds, there are impacts on delay repay etc and other similar conditions to consider.

Incidentally, there is an Avanti 1 day ranger ticket, fulfillment is through the old Print@Home method, but are restricted as to who can buy them.

 

[40875704]

The Derbyshare Wayfarer ticket (Only available at the ticket office or from a bus driver) is cheaper than a day return from Burton on Trent to Sheffield or Chesterfield, Edale, Grindleford etc. The ticket is popular with Peak District walkers and tourists. Rangers are not just for enthusiasts. The point of the ticket is to reduce road traffic in the congested peak district. Trouble is I am finding it hard to buy nowdays from Burton on Trent ticket office as you do not when the office is open. The opening hours published online are not correct so you can turn up at the station and find the office shut and then you are stuffed. Local walking clubs are now using the car to save them the anxiety of not being able to get the Wayfarer.

So when a passenger used to ask at Burton for a Day Return to Sheffield, Chesterfield or Matlock the ticket office always sold them a Wayfarer as its cheaper. More importantly, the ticket has no afternoon Crosscountry priced (BX) peak restriction.

I happened to be on Althorpe station [Althorpe North Lincs] and had a play with the ticket machine. In, to me, what was the biggest shock since Ken Barlow's first wife in Coronation Street got electrocuted, I found the machine offered a Derbyshire Wayfarer. In a further surprise the blurb suggested I could buy a scratch and sniff version to use on any date I fancied. I nearly bought one just to see if the reality matched the sales talk.

 

[infobleep]

I happened to be on Althorpe station [Althorpe North Lincs] and had a play with the ticket machine. In, to me, what was the biggest shock since Ken Barlow's first wife in Coronation Street got electrocuted, I found the machine offered a Derbyshire Wayfarer. In a further surprise the blurb suggested I could buy a scratch and sniff version to use on any date I fancied. I nearly bought one just to see if the reality matched the sales talk.

How much was it?

 

[40875704]

How much was it?

I think it was £6.50 for an over sixty, absolute bargain.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Incidentally, there is an Avanti 1 day ranger ticket, fulfillment is through the old Print@Home method, but are restricted as to who can buy them.

There shouldn't be as Print at Home has been retired.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There shouldn't be as Print at Home has been retired.

It's still going strong albeit entirely for special ranger and rover products. An operator is free to use non accredited issuing and fulfillment methods for tickets which are only valid on their own services.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's still going strong albeit entirely for special ranger and rover products. An operator is free to use non accredited issuing and fulfillment methods for tickets which are only valid on their own services.

And infrastructure, if you are using a third party's gates it could cause all sorts of problems

 

[Llandudno]

I think it was £6.50 for an over sixty, absolute bargain.

Should be £7 for the over 60s

 

[infobleep]

And infrastructure, if you are using a third party's gates it could cause all sorts of problems

Causing problems is no reason to not use it. In fact it's probably considered a very good reason to use it!

 

[dodecahedron67]

Incidentally, there is an Avanti 1 day ranger ticket, fulfillment is through the old Print@Home method, but are restricted as to who can buy them.

All FirstGroup TOCs have a 1 day standard class ranger available to FG Staff only. There’s also a Lumo 3 day rover, a GWR+SWR 1 day and a GWR 1st class 1 day.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Causing problems is no reason to not use it. In fact it's probably considered a very good reason to use it!

It’s not an official format so if you use it off of your own patch there is no reason for others people to accept it

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It’s not an official format so if you use it off of your own patch there is no reason for others people to accept it

To be fair, they don't have a choice whether to accept it or not off patch - especially on the East Coast where Hull Trains and Lumo passengers don't even need to present a ticket at the gates theoretically.

In any event, the Print@Home tickets referenced above do normally work at most gates when the barcode is scanned anyway.

Merseyrail did something similar and created their own online DaySaver in a non standard format that doesn't even have a compatible National Rail Aztec code, but TfW still have to deal with it at Chester for example. Theoretically it could end up as part of a split ticket delay repay claim, so any other TOC in the UK could have to deal with it then too.

LNER used to do something similar, possibly still do, with scratch cards, albeit I believe a counterfeiting operation may have put a stop to that.

 

[Titfield]

It's a strange conclusion to come to that the 'general public doesn't find rovers and rangers useful' when these tickets are not promoted and 99.9% of the general public are most likely totally unaware of their existence.

One of the problems with low volume products such as Rovers and Rangers is being able to cost effectively promote them. Poster space is limited and quite naturally tends to be used for sales messages that have a wider audience / reach. One would like to think that Community Rail Partnerships would do more to promote them (after all promoting railway use is part of their remit) but a lot of rail partnership work tends to be confined to litter picking and maintaining flower beds.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

One of the problems with low volume products such as Rovers and Rangers is being able to cost effectively promote them. Poster space is limited and quite naturally tends to be used for sales messages that have a wider audience / reach. One would like to think that Community Rail Partnerships would do more to promote them (after all promoting railway use is part of their remit) but a lot of rail partnership work tends to be confined to litter picking and maintaining flower beds.

Poster marketing/advertising, leaflets etc are a essentially a waste of time now at most TOCs. They're increasingly just being used to display information necessary to meet franchise/concession or other statutory requirements unless someone else is paying.

 

[Titfield]

Poster marketing/advertising, leaflets etc are a essentially a waste of time now at most TOCs. They're increasingly just being used to display information necessary to meet franchise/concession or other statutory requirements unless someone else is paying.

Advertising your product at the point / place of usage and where your customers are is usually a good idea.

Relying almost exclusively on social media is not always the optimum solution.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The Northern submission on ticket office closures shows a very low take up of rovers and rangers - often less than one a day at even major stations.
So while us gricers find them very useful, the general public doesn't.

I'm not sure you can make that judgement when they are so badly advertised and often the passenger experience when using them is so poor. Maybe people just don't know about what is on offer? Or maybe they have used one before, aggressively questioned on its validity when using it and decided to sod it for the future.

One of the problems with low volume products such as Rovers and Rangers is being able to cost effectively promote them. Poster space is limited and quite naturally tends to be used for sales messages that have a wider audience / reach.

Poster marketing/advertising, leaflets etc are a essentially a waste of time now at most TOCs. They're increasingly just being used to display information necessary to meet franchise/concession or other statutory requirements unless someone else is paying.

To address both of these - there doesn't seem to be any shortage of advertising at stations like Bristol Temple Meads. Hell half the time the posters in the subway are often Network Rail posters repeated about 10 times as you walk through anyway, so why on earth can't local tickets and schemes be advertised in at least some of those positions instead just as a start?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm not sure you can make that judgement when they are so badly advertised and often the passenger experience when using them is so poor. Maybe people just don't know about what is on offer? Or maybe they have used one before, aggressively questioned on its validity when using it and decided to sod it for the future.


To address both of these - there doesn't seem to be any shortage of advertising at stations like Bristol Temple Meads. Hell half the time the posters in the subway are often Network Rail posters repeated about 10 times as you walk through anyway, so why on earth can't local tickets and schemes be advertised in at least some of those positions instead just as a start?

You're proving the point. Poster frames are being endlessly filled with repetitive "information" that nobody really cares about, just so the case isn't empty or ticks a compliance box.

Northern tried extensive publicity around rangers and rovers, produced leaflets, improved that part of the website etc too - it just does not work.

Nobody can answer my question of who they think even wants to buy a ranger or rover aside from the occasional enthusiast or staff using a heavily discounted product. Most passengers do not want to wander around a limited geographical area, especially ones that involve secondary branch lines for one day, let alone 3/7 or 4/8 etc. That isn't how travel works these days.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You're proving the point. Poster frames are being endlessly filled with repetitive "information" that nobody really cares about, just so the case isn't empty or ticks a compliance box.

So why not use those poster frames for something actually useful! Your reasoning seems to be that they are full of information people don't care about, but seem to be using that as a reason for not filling them with information people would care about (like being able to travel for less money).

Nobody can answer my question of who they think even wants to buy a ranger or rover aside from the occasional enthusiast or staff using a heavily discounted product. Most passengers do not want to wander around a limited geographical area, especially ones that involve secondary branch lines for one day, let alone 3/7 or 4/8 etc. That isn't how travel works these days.

That isn't the only type of use case for those tickets though.
Some are priced in a way that mean they can be of good value to a lot of people. Especially ones that provide travel on buses / other public transport in the area, or are priced in a way that make them actually cheaper than a return rail journey covering the same area!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So why not use those poster frames for something actually useful! Your reasoning seems to be that they are full of information people don't care about, but seem to be using that as a reason for not filling them with information people would care about (like being able to travel for less money).


That isn't the only type of use case for those tickets though.
Some are priced in a way that mean they can be of good value to a lot of people. Especially ones that provide travel on buses / other public transport in the area, or are priced in a way that make them actually cheaper than a return rail journey covering the same area!

Again you're confusing PTE style multi modal products which ARE NOT ranger or rover tickets, except in name only, to make them fit into existing ticketing systems. The TOCs have absolutely ZERO input into how they are priced or marketed. However, even the biggest one of all, the London Travelcard, is on it's way out. I suspect most TOCs want nothing to do with these schemes, as they abstract revenue and only accept because their franchise or whatever agreement tells them to.

There are very very few actual ranger products that are cheaper than an ordinary day return, or is for a journey between pairs of stations that few people would care about.

 

[Haywain]

the occasional enthusiast or staff

The staff using these tickets are doing so because they are also enthusiasts. They are no more a separate demographic than railcard holders.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The staff using these tickets are doing so because they are also enthusiasts. They are no more a separate demographic than railcard holders.

I think you're missing the point raised earlier that some staff travel is entirely managed by a TOC only flat fare ranger or rover. These staff are not enthusiasts for the most part, or are relatives etc.

In any event, an actual PRIV ranger/rover is a significantly less profitable demographic than an ordinary Railcard holder - there is a huge difference!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Again you're confusing PTE style multi modal products which ARE NOT ranger or rover tickets, except in name only, to make them fit into existing ticketing systems. The TOCs have absolutely ZERO input into how they are priced or marketed. However, even the biggest one of all, the London Travelcard, is on it's way out. I suspect most TOCs want nothing to do with these schemes, as they abstract revenue and only accept because their franchise or whatever agreement tells them to.

To be pretty blunt, passengers (including myself) don't care what the differences are. All what I am reading is potential justification in the cynicism which directed me to create this thread. The railway SHOULD be advertising these kind of tickets because they can make a massive difference to passengers. If a ticket is offered, it shouldn't be hidden away so much that even the staff selling the tickets struggle to find it!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

To be pretty blunt, passengers (including myself) don't care what the differences are. All what I am reading is potential justification in the cynicism which directed me to create this thread. The railway SHOULD be advertising these kind of tickets because they can make a massive difference to passengers. If a ticket is offered, it shouldn't be hidden away so much that even the staff selling the tickets struggle to find it!

So direct your criticism to the local PTEs or local authorities who are in control of these schemes. The "railway" is just an authorised reseller, on behalf of whoever the organisation is that controls them. I suspect you'll also find that most agreements specifically prohibit resellers from doing anything other than reselling them - as most organisations quite rightly want control over their 'brand' or product.

You'll then find that local government have no or very little money for marketing such products, and also find that your so called "good value" PTE products are actually extremely costly when you understand that they are heavily loss making and require extensive subsidy - they are provided on the basis of supporting a local economy or assisting mobility and employability - the fact an enthusiast can enjoy a cheap run about for the day isn't the point. The hope is that by pouring subsidy into discounted PTE products, that it provides other benefits and revenues within the locality. I'm afraid to say, looking at most towns and cities, I'm not sure it's working.

 

[Haywain]

I think you're missing the point raised earlier that some staff travel is entirely managed by a TOC only flat fare ranger or rover. These staff are not enthusiasts for the most part, or are relatives etc.

If anyone is missing the point, it's you - I was quoting from your post where you said:

Nobody can answer my question of who they think even wants to buy a ranger or rover aside from the occasional enthusiast or staff using a heavily discounted product.

Are you now saying that was a reference to a product that is only available to staff, and therefore is not a 'normal' ranger or rover? If that's the case they are special products provided as a staff benefit and therefore irrelevant to the discussion in hand, as the level of sales will have no impact on their provision.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There are very very few actual ranger products that are cheaper than an ordinary day return, or is for a journey between pairs of stations that few people would care about.

New Mills Central to Sheffield is £14.30.

30p more than a Derbyshire Wayfarer.

Does that count?

 

[40875704]

Should be £7 for the over 60s

It is £7.00. Still well into bargain territory as far as I am concerned. I've done a few at full price in my "youth" and considered them great value then so for £7.00!! Gonna do one soon before all this discussion gets them pulled.