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TFW To Shake Up Rail Timetables

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Llandudno

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This is a good move from TfW so that passengers don’t have to rush to the station if they know their train is running late, although I think the map should indicate which, if any, trains are operating with more than the default 2 coaches.

Yep, I know you can find this info out on Real Time Trains, but 99% of the population probably have never heard of it!
 
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Llanigraham

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I think you're wholly correct there and it's somewhat of a scandal that they don't speak up about this absolutely atrocious service. TfW have the resources to get correct trains on the correct services but more or less don't as their units always seem to end up stuck somewhere. I last travelled with TfW in April as I did a journey from my local to Aberystwyth, arrived at Shrewsbury 40 mins late despite the train setting off only 6 down, and the return was 24 minutes late off Aberystwyth.
I've more or less determined that I'll only travel with them if it's unavoidable and the fact that it's a 1 in 2 chance your train will turn up in the very rural stations of the HOWL is just shocking. This shouldn't be made about politics at all, if a service is bad, someone who actually represents those using the service should speak up. I usually have patience with TOCs but I've completely lost that with TfW.

And yet staff with TfW here say that isn't the case.
Quite frankly I will believe them rather than someone who occasionally uses a TfW service.
 

Krokodil

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And yet staff with TfW here say that isn't the case.
Quite frankly I will believe them rather than someone who occasionally uses a TfW service.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other. There's certainly poor deployment of units (sometimes avoidably so, sometimes it can't be helped) but there's also an overall shortage of capacity.
 

CalderTrains

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And yet staff with TfW here say that isn't the case.
Quite frankly I will believe them rather than someone who occasionally uses a TfW service.
Then that's true, and I'd believe staff over an occasional traveller too. I was just going off experience. Often, many units seem out of use in Chester, I travel there quite frequently, and they are generally stranded there for weeks at a time. That's not the 175 remediation programme, I'm talking about sprinters that often spend time there, and there's quite a few moves between Canton or Swansea and Chester or Shrewsbury. It just seems there are many units out of use a lot of the time.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. There's certainly poor deployment of units (sometimes avoidably so, sometimes it can't be helped) but there's also an overall shortage of capacity.
I suppose one of TfW issues is the remoteness of some of their lines for facilities. 1V62 broke down between Wilmslow and Crewe not so long ago and had to wait 4 and a half hours for another 67 to come from Cardiff on a service, deliver passengersat Wilmslow and then go rescue it. There is a shortage of capacity and I find that a little odd but in hindsight their network is huge.

Regardless, their service is not in a very good place at the moment and the reliability, especially on England to Wales services is very low, and the service is normally very overcrowded. Heart of Wales Line reliability is not in a good place too. TfW have some of the nicest staff of any TOC though so I will give it to them, it's just they suffer at the moment with I suppose knock in impact from introducing new trains as well as other stuff?
 

Topological

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Things like the Northern 150s on the Marches are inexcusable. Surely as soon as the computer allocates one of the Northern 150s someone can look at it and then swap to a TfW 150. That is basic?

The fact that the 175s should be working until transfer to their new operator as the 170s did/are is also clear.

The Mk4 and how hard they are to rescue is symptomatic of TfW. Yes, more trains were needed, but better maintenance of the 175s could allow 175s to cover all the way through to 197 introduction. More 197s would have been a better solution than Mk4. Mk4 are nicer, but poor reliability and swaps for units in any case, mean that it would be better to have carried on with the units and not had the distraction of Mk4.

Things will get better with the 197s. But 2023 will not go down as the finest point of Welsh rail.
 

Bletchleyite

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The Northern 150s are grim but they have more seats (if you're short and skinny). So a bit swings and roundabouts.

The fix is just to get 197s in service.
 

Starmill

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More 197s would have been a better solution than Mk4.
TfW had a fixed budget though. They got a lot more capacity by taking cut price Mark 4 sets than they would have got from an extension order for Civitys. CAF wouldn't have delivered any yet either. If they'd done the latter people would be complaining about the lack of capacity and the long lead times on the class 197 order being fulfilled.
 

sd0733

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Then that's true, and I'd believe staff over an occasional traveller too. I was just going off experience. Often, many units seem out of use in Chester, I travel there quite frequently, and they are generally stranded there for weeks at a time. That's not the 175 remediation programme, I'm talking about sprinters that often spend time there, and there's quite a few moves between Canton or Swansea and Chester or Shrewsbury. It just seems there are many units out of use a lot of the time.


1V62 broke down between Wilmslow and Crewe not so long ago and had to wait 4 and a half hours for another 67 to come from Cardiff on a service, deliver passengers at Wilmslow and then go rescue it.
That's not really what happened. Another set which arrived into Stockport 90 mins after was used. Normally theres a rescue loco stationed at Crewe, one day 2 locos were in Holyhead being swapped so werent available, since then things have changed and if no TfW loco is available, a loco at Crewe ETD is always available for TfW use as nobody wants trains sitting round for hours on end.
 

Krokodil

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TfW had a fixed budget though. They got a lot more capacity by taking cut price Mark 4 sets than they would have got from an extension order for Civitys. CAF wouldn't have delivered any yet either. If they'd done the latter people would be complaining about the lack of capacity and the long lead times on the class 197 order being fulfilled.
Shame that the Mk4s were taken off of 1W93 just in time for silly season. Even with four coaches (1st class declassified) it was often full and standing. Usually runs either with a 150 or two 153s, and today is no exception. Passengers crammed in with a crowbar and many more left behind.

Earlier at Prestatyn another 150 had scenes reminiscent of Japanese commuter trains, with security staff physically pushing passengers in so that the doors could close.
 

sd0733

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More 197s would have been a better solution than Mk4. Mk4 are nicer, but poor reliability and swaps for units in any case, mean that it would be better to have carried on with the units and not had the distraction of Mk4.
That just wouldn't have happened, the option without the Mk4s was....nothing. The same amount of 197s would now be in service just with more Sat in sidings awaiting acceptance so there would currently be 6 less units in the fleet than there currently is.
The 197s are hardly setting the world alight with their reliability at the moment either, there's just more of them which hides the issues more!
 

tomuk

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That just wouldn't have happened, the option without the Mk4s was....nothing. The same amount of 197s would now be in service just with more Sat in sidings awaiting acceptance so there would currently be 6 less units in the fleet than there currently is.
The 197s are hardly setting the world alight with their reliability at the moment either, there's just more of them which hides the issues more!
Would the 170s not have been retained?
 

Topological

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That just wouldn't have happened, the option without the Mk4s was....nothing. The same amount of 197s would now be in service just with more Sat in sidings awaiting acceptance so there would currently be 6 less units in the fleet than there currently is.
The 197s are hardly setting the world alight with their reliability at the moment either, there's just more of them which hides the issues more!
Might have focused minds on the 175s more, one could but dream of that parallel universe.

Ultimately if trains can start where they say they start and get to the destination they plan to that will be a huge step up. The day there is sufficient reliability for there to be no spins at Crewe or Wilmslow will be a great one.

It would also be nice if 1W13 always started in Swansea instead of some mornings deciding not to.
 

sd0733

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Might have focused minds on the 175s more, one could but dream of that parallel universe.

Ultimately if trains can start where they say they start and get to the destination they plan to that will be a huge step up. The day there is sufficient reliability for there to be no spins at Crewe or Wilmslow will be a great one.
It's highly unlikely to have made any difference to 175s, its completely different depots and maintainers so wouldn't have helped, just left it even shorter with whatever 15x could be used. Several minds were very focused, and still are for getting diagrams covered by units with capacity and to a decent standard.
Nobody, anywhere wants 150s running packed out and losing so much time it turns round at Wilmslow.
 

Plodster

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Shame that the Mk4s were taken off of 1W93 just in time for silly season. Even with four coaches (1st class declassified) it was often full and standing. Usually runs either with a 150 or two 153s, and today is no exception. Passengers crammed in with a crowbar and many more left behind.

Earlier at Prestatyn another 150 had scenes reminiscent of Japanese commuter trains, with security staff physically pushing passengers in so that the doors could close.
Are they likely to return on the daytime services anyone know?
 

jayah

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TFW have now launched a map to track services in real time. I know most us are aware of RTT but i doubt the avarage traveller would be aware of it, so may prove useful.

It is a total gimmick like most of what these companies do.

TfW as the name implies are in the business of connecting places so that people can get from and to them.

It is impossible to do that by public transport, when buses don't serve railway stations, buses don't run on Sundays, or stop running at 6pm in the week, or the timetables are not remotely coordinated when they do both happen to be running at the same time.
 

RJ

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That is being generous. I've only had the "pleasure" of a couple of rides on the ex Northern 150s. They are horrific.


The rest of the 197s can't come into service too soon.

Bletchleyite isn’t wrong, but whether all of the seats are accessible to anyone who is taller than about 5’6” is debatable.

TfW’s own 150s are a lot nicer - I can actually get some work done on them.
 

Topological

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Bletchleyite isn’t wrong, but whether all of the seats are accessible to anyone who is taller than about 5’6” is debatable.

TfW’s own 150s are a lot nicer - I can actually get some work done on them.
Indeed.

It is somewhat stretching it to say that TfW should be let off their failure to restrict the Northern 150s to journeys of less than 4 hours (an appropriate lower number could be inserted here).

The fact is that it is possible with a short line of code, TfW just have not implemented it for some reason.

Hopefully TfW do a better job when working out which 197s go where and do not just assume "they are all 197s".
 

Krokodil

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Indeed.

It is somewhat stretching it to say that TfW should be let off their failure to restrict the Northern 150s to journeys of less than 4 hours (an appropriate lower number could be inserted here).

The fact is that it is possible with a short line of code, TfW just have not implemented it for some reason.

Hopefully TfW do a better job when working out which 197s go where and do not just assume "they are all 197s".
The real world is not as simple as a computer game. Sometimes you get caught out by circumstances and have no choice.

If Control are short-staffed it often ends up being down to the shed drivers to try and work out which units need fuel and get them matched to the morning departures. They have little information available to them so the Controller who comes in at 7am then has to sort out any wrinkles, set-swapping to make sure that units don't run short of fuel and get to depots in time for exams. They may also have to work around limitations in traction knowledge and route clearance. Unexpected events also occur, such as unit faults and service disruption. If the only unit free on Canton to continue the service is 150269/270 then that's better than a cancellation.
 

Topological

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The real world is not as simple as a computer game. Sometimes you get caught out by circumstances and have no choice.

If Control are short-staffed it often ends up being down to the shed drivers to try and work out which units need fuel and get them matched to the morning departures. They have little information available to them so the Controller who comes in at 7am then has to sort out any wrinkles, set-swapping to make sure that units don't run short of fuel and get to depots in time for exams. They may also have to work around limitations in traction knowledge and route clearance. Unexpected events also occur, such as unit faults and service disruption. If the only unit free on Canton to continue the service is 150269/270 then that's better than a cancellation.
It is an IF statement in the allocation algorithm, not sure what computer games have to do with it. Is that a deflection?

For all of the other aspects there are presumably IF statements in the allocation to prevent unsuitable units going on particular diagrams. Whether that be because the unit has a number of miles left to exam, issues with fuel, whatever.

Saying it is a choice of Northern or cancel is also throwing the argument because the only diagrams starting in Canton are the Mk4. IF the argument is now that the Northern is getting sent to the west to then form a Manchester from there, there is plenty of time to arrange a swap.

But, the truth is that the Northern 150s appear as allocated on RealTimeTrains the night before and as such it is not last minute swaps that are creating the issue.

While i would not want to do anyone out of a job it is not hard to construct an allocation algorithm that can permute all of the options and select the best TfW 150s for the longer distance services and then there is no need to wait for 7am.
 

Dai Corner

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The real world is not as simple as a computer game. Sometimes you get caught out by circumstances and have no choice.

If Control are short-staffed it often ends up being down to the shed drivers to try and work out which units need fuel and get them matched to the morning departures. They have little information available to them so the Controller who comes in at 7am then has to sort out any wrinkles, set-swapping to make sure that units don't run short of fuel and get to depots in time for exams. They may also have to work around limitations in traction knowledge and route clearance. Unexpected events also occur, such as unit faults and service disruption. If the only unit free on Canton to continue the service is 150269/270 then that's better than a cancellation.
That's an interesting insight into early morning operations at Canton.

I'd always assumed units were allocated to diagrams days or more in advance and the shedmaster (for want of a better word) would know which ones needed to be ready for service at what times. Drivers booked on and took the allocated unit out.

The only times things would be changed is in the event of an unfixable failure or major disruption during the day.
 

Envoy

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I assumed that all units would have been topped up to full during the night. Goodness knows why the Northern ones can’t just be put on the local valley line services only?
 

Krokodil

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That's an interesting insight into early morning operations at Canton.

I'd always assumed units were allocated to diagrams days or more in advance and the shedmaster (for want of a better word) would know which ones needed to be ready for service at what times. Drivers booked on and took the allocated unit out.

The only times things would be changed is in the event of an unfixable failure or major disruption during the day.
Allocations are finalised by the night shift in Control. Some forward planning is done such as "if we have X 158 finish at Holyhead tonight, it'll be on a diagram that ends at Mach tomorrow ready for its exam", but real life is too unpredictable to have a dependable plan days in advance. Each time that you amend one bit of it you cause the dominos to tumble. Sometimes even the STP diagrams aren't available from train planning until quite close to the line.

I assumed that all units would have been topped up to full during the night.
For a start there are no fuel points at Llandudno Junction or Pwllheli so no fuelling is going to take place there come what may. There's also the issue of how many units you can send through the depot on a given night. A lot of units at Chester will just be stabled in the Middle Yard or the platforms at night, without going on the shed. It's difficult enough finding a slot on shed to send units in to get faults rectified, you see 197s running around with the same fault for days on end.

Goodness knows why the Northern ones can’t just be put on the local valley line services only?
Because - as I said above - sometimes real life intervenes, snookers you, and that's literally the only working unit free on Canton to send out.
 
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