Improving Clapham Junction

[devon_belle]

I've seen various posts in threads (recent and old) about problems with Clapham Junction station. In a world with a bit more rail funding, what would you realistically do to the station, assuming that you can close significant parts at the station for an extended period of time.

For passengers, first, I'd construct a new subway/footbridge on the London end, to alleviate congestion when crossing the station. Escalators onto either footbridge/subway would also be better for older/slower passengers who do not get the lifts.

P16 and P17 are hardly used, so I would remove them and use the space to slue the Brighton local lines into a more sensible formation which could have a higher approach speed. Also, moving the junction Up to beyond the London end of the station would hopefully mean no more extensive overlaps.

After the slueing, there could be room to ease the curvature out the other two SR and four (five) SWR tracks on this side of the station. I'm not proposing an increase to line speed, but installing an unplatformed through road if it would fit, since P8 can't really be used anyway. If I can fit in shallower curves to the platforms, maybe the unplatformed overtaking line would be more useful on the down SWR fast line? Either way, a faster entry speed to what is now P7 would be crucial. (P.s., is P8 ever used for overtaking?)

I think the Windsor/Overground side of the station works quite well at present. I don't know if there is use for a platform 0? If so, this could be included in my (generous) budget.

Just brainstorming! Interested to hear what people would do, and why my ideas are bonkers

 

[Trainguy34]

P16 and P17 are hardly used, so I would remove them and use the space to slue the Brighton local lines into a more sensible formation which could have a higher approach speed. Also, moving the junction Up to beyond the London end of the station would hopefully mean no more extensive overlaps.

Agree to this, they would have to keep one in use due to pathing on the Overground and WLL Southern trains though.

 

[Bald Rick]

A new footbridge at the London end is on the cards, albeit not easy or cheap.

Anything involving track sluing there quickly becomes very expensive. also there’s not enough vertical ’space’ to move Falcon Jn (the junction between the Victoria slow lines and the West London Line) to the other side of the station. The latter line has to fall quite quickly to make the underpass.

 

[dastocks]

Build a new interchange station for South Western, South Eastern, Southern and Overground services somewhere near Queenstown Road. This would replace the current Clapham Junction calls for long distance services and the existing station would only be served by local services. The new station would also replace Queenstown Road and Battersea Park stations.
It would make sense to include a replacement for Victoria Coach station in the new development as well.

 

[davews]

When I passed through last week there was a sign outside the loos saying they were closed for refurbishment, but actually open, I used them. When I returned later the sign had gone. Clapham definitely needs better loo provision, but it also needs some on the Windsor side. As for the curvature on those centre platforms and 'mind the gap'. Wow, I couldn't believe how big the gap was, I needed a hand to get down.

 

[Snow1964]

I would pile a new retaining wall between Strath Terrace and St John's Hill Bridge, so that the junction for platform 7 loop could be moved back. Widen the bridge span used by platform 7 trains and extend the platform. (Very expensive). But if money was no object I would have had a third fast track from Hampton Court Junction (without platforms, located between the others as a reversible fast) ) that was used as a tidal fast. Although since mid distance commuting has fallen probably not needed anymore.

I would look at curvature of platform 16 are question if it is really needed or if some better alignment of it and 14 and 15 is possible.

I also think a much wider subway is needed with escalators up to each platform.

 

[JonathanH]

Build a new interchange station for South Western, South Eastern, Southern and Overground services somewhere near Queenstown Road. This would replace the current Clapham Junction calls for long distance services and the existing station would only be served by local services. The new station would also replace Queenstown Road and Battersea Park stations.
It would make sense to include a replacement for Victoria Coach station in the new development as well.

Clapham Junction isn't just about interchange between train services, indeed it could be argued that a lot of demand comes from people who live in the immediate area. Putting it at Queenstown Road doesn't match the road and bus network and where people live although I can see the point about that being a better point for an interchange, particularly if the Kent lines could also be involved.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

A great thread idea.

There was an article on this many years ago over on London Recconections back in the days when we all thought travel demand by 2050 would be so high London would need "one new main line a decade".

However, what I would do would firstly, build that footbridge spanning the London end as you suggest, and use the property on the western corner of the Lavender Hill/St. Johns Hill crossroads as a massive new facade and combined bus station. I'd also try and slew the lines through platforms 16-17 on a new alignment, possibly over the site of the former Victoria signal box. Escalators to all platforms as you suggest, however I also wonder whether the entire subway under the station could be opened up to create a large circulating area.

Reopening the former entrance going further up the hill towards Wandsworth will help ease the pedestrian overcrowding on the over bridge, but the land is now used as a bus garage.

I would also look into reopening Battersea station on the WLL to reduce the crowds at Clapham Junction. Renaming it "Battersea North" or "Old Battersea" or something.

 

[devon_belle]

I would look at curvature of platform 16 are question if it is really needed or if some better alignment of it and 14 and 15 is possible.

Rationalising (demolishing) the platform buildings on P13/14 could go a long way to un-kinking P14/15, I bet.

 

[Turtle]

When I passed through last week there was a sign outside the loos saying they were closed for refurbishment, but actually open, I used them. When I returned later the sign had gone. Clapham definitely needs better loo provision, but it also needs some on the Windsor side. As for the curvature on those centre platforms and 'mind the gap'. Wow, I couldn't believe how big the gap was, I needed a hand to get down.

For years I listened to "Mind the gap" as I journeyed to Victoria. It was only one day, long after retirement, that I had to alight at CJ. God, what a shock! I barely made it to the platform. In these days of health and safety it seems extraordinary that such a dangerous environment continues to exist.

 

[infobleep]

A new footbridge at the London end is on the cards, albeit not easy or cheap.

Anything involving track sluing there quickly becomes very expensive. also there’s not enough vertical ’space’ to move Falcon Jn (the junction between the Victoria slow lines and the West London Line) to the other side of the station. The latter line has to fall quite quickly to make the underpass.

Interesting. I wouldn't have expected such a footbridge thing due to the costs and disruption building it would cause.

More widely I'd love it if more trains could stop at platform 7 as it is such a handy interchange station to other services. I appreciate it ain't happen due to costs and disruption.

For example, if you wish to go to East Croydon, anywhere on the West London line, towards the east or even London Victoria, it's handy to change.

For most hours of the day Monday to Saturday, Guildford has 1 fast service to Clapham Junction, due to timetable reductions. It has 2 on Sundays when cheaper Sunday Out tickets are available all day.

So on a day when they might publically state fewer people travel, they have more trains stopping there, than on the days when they would say more people travel.

The slow services don't time well enough to be a good alternative and if you get a fast service and change at Woking you officially have a 20-minute wait, which for a journey that is around 30 minutes direct on a fast service, is poor.

So if money was no object I would improve platform 7. Also, 9 too as one would also want more down services.

Back in the real world, I will put up with what I have as not much they can do about it, save rewriting the timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

Agree to this, they would have to keep one in use due to pathing on the Overground and WLL Southern trains though.

Not forgetting all the cross London freight that uses the route.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Build a new interchange station for South Western, South Eastern, Southern and Overground services somewhere near Queenstown Road. This would replace the current Clapham Junction calls for long distance services and the existing station would only be served by local services.

Isn't one of the main points* of Clapham junction that it allows easy connections between long distance and local services, though?


*Pun intended

 

[infobleep]

Isn't one of the main points* of Clapham junction that it allows easy connections between long distance and local services, though?


*Pun intended

For some lines perhaps but not sure about the South West Mainline as for many years fast trains never stopped there. No idea though what the situation was when platforms 7 and 8 were first built.

 

[Basil Jet]

Build a new interchange station for South Western, South Eastern, Southern and Overground services somewhere near Queenstown Road. This would replace the current Clapham Junction calls for long distance services and the existing station would only be served by local services. The new station would also replace Queenstown Road and Battersea Park stations.

What about the Southern service to Watford Junction? Would that reverse at the new station or carry on as now?

 

[PGAT]

According to ORR statistics, there are roughly as many people changing as there are people entering/exiting the station

 

[London Trains]

In a world where money is no object, I would completely demolish and rebuild the entirety of the mainline side of the station (Platforms 7-17) slightly closer to London, with the shopping centre attached to the station, an office block, Lidl and the signalling centre all demolished to make way for the station.

All of the platforms would be completely straight (which is made possible by moving the station closer to London), all would be 240m (12 coaches) long except for the WLL platform, and the fast lines on both the SWML and BML would have 2 platforms (an island platform) each to allow every single train to call at the station by alternating platforms.

Station layout:

SWML - UF |7 8| UF DF |9 10| DF US |11 12| DS
BML - UF |13 14| UF DF |15 16| DF US |17 18| DS RW |19
(U = Up, D = Down, R = Reversible, F = Fast, S = Slow, W = West London Line).

 

[PGAT]

I would add crossovers (and potentially a new turnback siding if possible?) to allow some trains to terminate at Clapham Junction during Victoria closures

 

[London Trains]

I would add crossovers (and potentially a new turnback siding if possible?) to allow some trains to terminate at Clapham Junction during Victoria closures

This can already be done, albeit when it has happened it was only a limited service of 6tph (2tph from each of P13, P15 and P17).

 

[zwk500]

In a world where money is no object,

Money no Object, I'd have Platform 0 and widen the Windsor Line platforms (simultaneously rebuilding the entire Windsor line from Waterloo to Barnes for Paired by Use, slows on the west/North and fasts on the east/South - this allows the connection to Longhedge Jn to not foul Up Fast trains). I'd then have an Up Fast through line with platform loop for the SWML, maybe a down fast through line as well, then give the BML 3 tracks on each pair of lines. But that would involve serious demolition and probably the displacement of a fair number of the sidings to somewhere else.

 

[dastocks]

Isn't one of the main points* of Clapham junction that it allows easy connections between long distance and local services, though?


*Pun intended

Yes, and local services could/would also stop at the new station, which might also be able to replace Wandsworth Road station. It would even make sense for Gatwick Express to call, providing enough platforms were built.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2023 ==

What about the Southern service to Watford Junction? Would that reverse at the new station or carry on as now?

There are options to do either, or extend that particular service via the new station to somewhere else in South/South East London. It would be interesting to know the proportion of West London line journeys that originate from Clapham Junction rather than being passengers who changed there from another service. Going to the new station would improve access to these services for passengers from SE London.

 

[Hadders]

ISTR GNER proposed relocating Clapham Junction as part of a South Western franchise bid in the early 2000s?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

ISTR GNER proposed relocating Clapham Junction as part of a South Western franchise bid in the early 2000s?

Yes, I remember having a train magazine with a doctored image of a class 458 on the front in GNER livery

 

[Class450/4DES]

Yes, I remember having a train magazine with a doctored image of a class 458 on the front in GNER livery

Do you have a photo of it? This has grabbed my interest. Being local I never knew about this at all.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Do you have a photo of it? This has grabbed my interest. Being local I never knew about this at all.

Yes! It was a Rail Magazine not a Modern Railways one, there's a copy on Ebay

 

[Bald Rick]

In a world where money is no object, I would completely demolish and rebuild the entirety of the mainline side of the station (Platforms 7-17) slightly closer to London, with the shopping centre attached to the station, an office block, Lidl and the signalling centre all demolished to make way for the station.

All of the platforms would be completely straight (which is made possible by moving the station closer to London), all would be 240m (12 coaches) long except for the WLL platform, and the fast lines on both the SWML and BML would have 2 platforms (an island platform) each to allow every single train to call at the station by alternating platforms.

Station layout:

SWML - UF |7 8| UF DF |9 10| DF US |11 12| DS
BML - UF |13 14| UF DF |15 16| DF US |17 18| DS RW |19
(U = Up, D = Down, R = Reversible, F = Fast, S = Slow, W = West London Line).

I have the outline design for that on my laptop.

£10bn though…

 

[The Ham]

My suggestion; Crossrail 2

 

[devon_belle]

My suggestion; Crossrail 2

What does that mean for Clapham Junction?

 

[Class450/4DES]

Yes! It was a Rail Magazine not a Modern Railways one, there's a copy on Ebay

Oh okay. Thanks!

 

[infobleep]

My suggestion; Crossrail 2

It wouldn't help passengers travelling from places like Guildford though. Not that I'm saying Crossrail 2 would be a bad thing if the business case stacked up. No idea if it does right now