Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[TreacleMiller]

Thanks all three of you for your explanations. I have just one last question. As I understand the brakes on the 8xxs have the variable continuous brake (similar to 395s?) unlike the 387s but do they have the power notches like the 387s or is that variable too? Sorry for the rather specific questions but I am going to be using the MML a bit more and these units will become nearly as common to me as the Azumas and I do find that trains with the power notches can be less smooth on acceleration than those without. Thanks, and again sorry for all the questions!

Variable. There is no"Notch" system like you have on older traction, same goes for power. There are labels / little markers though which were meant to replicate notches of power and braking steps as a reference but the controller itself had no resistance or feel at these points.

See attached image (not my own)

On 8XXs the brakes do perform differently. A 5 car brakes differently from a 9 or a 10 and a minimum brake on one might give a 20% brake but the next set might give you 15%.

In addition a braking control unit adjusts braking performance to coincide with the drivers demand dynamically, so if the set is full and standing it'll compensate for this to a degree. In theory anyway.

You get a varying experience compared to traditional air brakes but they are also very rapid to modulate as a result.

 

[rmt4ever]

I believe they will have a trolley provision in standard with a galley for catering in first.

Boo. Whats the obsession with trolleys. They are crap compared to a proper buffet. How are you supposed to get hot food from a trolley? Or proper coffee? Or actually COLD COLD beer wine spirit mixer etc??

And you can not go and get it instantly you have to wait for it to come to you.

not passenger friendly

 

[Aspen90]

Boo. Whats the obsession with trolleys. They are crap compared to a proper buffet. How are you supposed to get hot food from a trolley? Or proper coffee? Or actually COLD COLD beer wine spirit mixer etc??

And you can not go and get it instantly you have to wait for it to come to you.

not passenger friendly

The DfT have said no to the buffet. They have full control of every pound spent on them. Remember they want rid of catering, and catering staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

One thing I was surprised with when I saw the unit planform was the reduction in tables. There’s barely any tables in each coach. So when it comes to capacity I’m guessing they’ve increased that by reducing table space. The TM has a proper little office on these though which they’re pleased with. The bikes are to be stored vertically too instead of long ways, again to save space.

 

[irish_rail]

The DfT have said no to the buffet. They have full control of every pound spent on them. Remember they want rid of catering, and catering staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

One thing I was surprised with when I saw the unit planform was the reduction in tables. There’s barely any tables in each coach. So when it comes to capacity I’m guessing they’ve increased that by reducing table space. The TM has a proper little office on these though which they’re pleased with. The bikes are to be stored vertically too instead of long ways, again to save space.

Its sucks that Dft say NO to GWR and EMR, but YES to Avanti and LNER! I'd be interested to know average journey time on say Avanti compared with say GWR intercity. I suspect GWRs journies are longer and so more deserving of a buffet. Not sure on EMR , but London to Sheffield is a fair old way.

 

[Killingworth]

Its sucks that Dft say NO to GWR and EMR, but YES to Avanti and LNER! I'd be interested to know average journey time on say Avanti compared with say GWR intercity. I suspect GWRs journies are longer and so more deserving of a buffet. Not sure on EMR , but London to Sheffield is a fair old way.

40-50 years ago I'd while away journeys from London to Sheffield with a 3 course meal on the train. Available to all with second/standard class tickets I found I could travel first class all the way. Most days I'd have been served and eaten by Derby or shortly after.

A trolley that may or not be present is a poor substitute. Today I'd buy food at St Pancras to carry on and maybe buy a coffee.from the trolley if it appears.

On LNER from Doncaster to Newcastle recently I tried their breakfast, served after York Sadly the full English had sold out but the porridge was good.. Well worth paying for first class.

 

[baz962]

Its sucks that Dft say NO to GWR and EMR, but YES to Avanti and LNER! I'd be interested to know average journey time on say Avanti compared with say GWR intercity. I suspect GWRs journies are longer and so more deserving of a buffet. Not sure on EMR , but London to Sheffield is a fair old way.

London to Sheffield is two hours on a quick one. The longest that I know of is the last one for London drivers is the 21.45 usually in London around 00.22.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

The DfT have said no to the buffet. They have full control of every pound spent on them. Remember they want rid of catering, and catering staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

One thing I was surprised with when I saw the unit planform was the reduction in tables. There’s barely any tables in each coach. So when it comes to capacity I’m guessing they’ve increased that by reducing table space. The TM has a proper little office on these though which they’re pleased with. The bikes are to be stored vertically too instead of long ways, again to save space.

Interesting that the TM gets an office , especially with all the talk of going Doo eventually.

 

[Aspen90]

London to Sheffield is two hours on a quick one. The longest that I know of is the last one for London drivers is the 21.45 usually in London around 00.22.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==


Interesting that the TM gets an office , especially with all the talk of going Doo eventually.

There’s a few curved and short platforms such as Long Eaton. They recently had cameras quoted for dispatch without platform staff and they were more expensive than just keeping the staff so for now TM stays. Also when running as 10 cars, they need a TM in each unit. The MML is the poor relation so it’s very unlikely the DfT will spend money upgrading the stations and platforms.

 

[baz962]

There’s a few curved and short platforms such as Long Eaton. They recently had cameras quoted for dispatch without platform staff and they were more expensive than just keeping the staff so for now TM stays. Also when running as 10 cars, they need a TM in each unit. The MML is the poor relation so it’s very unlikely the DfT will spend money upgrading the stations and platforms.

Of course SDO four at Long Eaton. I don't think IC trains should stop there anyway , personal opinion and I know that they need a TM in each unit or a unit locked out but that wouldn't matter if Doo. Personally I'm absolutely pleased that the TM is staying and I know some are worried. But with the 360's not having cameras and staying for quite some years yet I am glad they are safe.

 

[LowLevel]

There’s a few curved and short platforms such as Long Eaton. They recently had cameras quoted for dispatch without platform staff and they were more expensive than just keeping the staff so for now TM stays. Also when running as 10 cars, they need a TM in each unit. The MML is the poor relation so it’s very unlikely the DfT will spend money upgrading the stations and platforms.

I suspect there will be a move to one train manager per train with the 810s in line with the 360s and Regional services. No current plans to make any alterations to On Train roles or headcount.

Of course SDO four at Long Eaton. I don't think IC trains should stop there anyway , personal opinion and I know that they need a TM in each unit or a unit locked out but that wouldn't matter if Doo. Personally I'm absolutely pleased that the TM is staying and I know some are worried. But with the 360's not having cameras and staying for quite some years yet I am glad they are safe.

Long Eaton generates a large amount of traffic for London services though - the platform is often full of people waiting when I potter through in front with the Newark. It also has always had a reasonably strong commuting crowd for Leicester - back in the late 90s Central Trains ran some peak time Derby - Leicester - Birmingham services but with one exception in the other direction that lasted till 2008 under Cross Country they were dispensed with as unnecessary with the enhanced MML 170 stopping services.

I don't think there's any chance of the train manager being dispensed with but I am sure they will want to move to having one per train on multied up 810s, which would tally with how they work 170s and 360s. Unfortunately in the East Midlands the focus appears to have shifted on to dispensing with safety critical competencies for station staff and given the way the network works in the area you may as well leave things as they are with the on train staff.

 

[baz962]

I suspect there will be a move to one train manager per train with the 810s in line with the 360s and Regional services. No current plans to make any alterations to On Train roles or headcount.

Long Eaton generates a large amount of traffic for London services though - the platform is often full of people waiting when I potter through in front with the Newark. It also has always had a reasonably strong commuting crowd for Leicester - back in the late 90s Central Trains ran some peak time Derby - Leicester - Birmingham services but with one exception in the other direction that lasted till 2008 under Cross Country they were dispensed with as unnecessary with the enhanced MML 170 stopping services.

I don't think there's any chance of the train manager being dispensed with but I am sure they will want to move to having one per train on multied up 810s, which would tally with how they work 170s and 360s. Unfortunately in the East Midlands the focus appears to have shifted on to dispensing with safety critical competencies for station staff and given the way the network works in the area you may as well leave things as they are with the on train staff.

Occasionally I see a few people at Long Eaton. Usually not many though , especially late services. Usually one or two. Couldn't they get to either Derby or EMP or Leicester on a regional.

 

[Aspen90]

Occasionally I see a few people at Long Eaton. Usually not many though , especially late services. Usually one or two. Couldn't they get to either Derby or EMP or Leicester on a regional.

I agree with LowLevel. Long Eaton is a very busy little station. Bear in mind the regionals passing through have only come from Nottingham and the East. It’s up to the Meridian’s to bring traffic from the south so they will definitely still be required to stop here. Commuters to London, Leicester, Loughborough etc. When I call at Long Eaton I expect loads off but also loads on.

I suppose in a way the network is ‘lucky’ as it still requires on train staff as there’s so much variation over the network. There’s absolute block, semaphore signalling, token block working, platforms which vary HUGELY in height for wheelchair assists, curved platforms, short platforms etc.

 

[baz962]

I agree with LowLevel. Long Eaton is a very busy little station. Bear in mind the regionals passing through have only come from Nottingham and the East. It’s up to the Meridian’s to bring traffic from the south so they will definitely still be required to stop here. Commuters to London, Leicester, Loughborough etc. When I call at Long Eaton I expect loads off but also loads on.

I suppose in a way the network is ‘lucky’ as it still requires on train staff as there’s so much variation over the network. There’s absolute block, semaphore signalling, token block working, platforms which vary HUGELY in height for wheelchair assists, curved platforms, short platforms etc.

I'm aware of the differences lol . Well fair enough for Long Eaton , but it's horrible for a driver for anything over four cars and it's very rarely busy on a service I'm on and last time I was there on an IC precisely none on and none off.

 

[dosxuk]

Interesting that the TM gets an office , especially with all the talk of going Doo eventually.

TM getting an office doesn't imply the TM will have safety critical responsibilities for the lifetime of the stock.

I would expect even if the MML became DOO, there would still be customer facing staff on board.

 

[baz962]

TM getting an office doesn't imply the TM will have safety critical responsibilities for the lifetime of the stock.

I would expect even if the MML became DOO, there would still be customer facing staff on board.

Yes didn't think of that. Hope they stay though.

 

[St. Paddy]

There’s a few curved and short platforms such as Long Eaton. They recently had cameras quoted for dispatch without platform staff and they were more expensive than just keeping the staff so for now TM stays. Also when running as 10 cars, they need a TM in each unit. The MML is the poor relation so it’s very unlikely the DfT will spend money upgrading the stations and platforms.

No need to spend money when the trains have on board cameras

 

[TreacleMiller]

No need to spend money when the trains have on board cameras

Yes, there is.

RA signalling for starters.

If they are using the same CCTV system as the rest of the 800s it won't be fit for DOO anyway.

 

[Eastern Farmer]

Variable. There is no"Notch" system like you have on older traction, same goes for power. There are labels / little markers though which were meant to replicate notches of power and braking steps as a reference but the controller itself had no resistance or feel at these points.

See attached image (not my own)

On 8XXs the brakes do perform differently. A 5 car brakes differently from a 9 or a 10 and a minimum brake on one might give a 20% brake but the next set might give you 15%.

In addition a braking control unit adjusts braking performance to coincide with the drivers demand dynamically, so if the set is full and standing it'll compensate for this to a degree. In theory anyway.

You get a varying experience compared to traditional air brakes but they are also very rapid to modulate as a result.

That would make sense, thanks mate!

 

[43055]

Its sucks that Dft say NO to GWR and EMR, but YES to Avanti and LNER! I'd be interested to know average journey time on say Avanti compared with say GWR intercity. I suspect GWRs journies are longer and so more deserving of a buffet. Not sure on EMR , but London to Sheffield is a fair old way.

The main difference with EMR and GWR is that the EMR buffets are hardly used now with a trolley service already if there is catering on the service.

One thing I was surprised with when I saw the unit planform was the reduction in tables. There’s barely any tables in each coach. So when it comes to capacity I’m guessing they’ve increased that by reducing table space. The TM has a proper little office on these though which they’re pleased with. The bikes are to be stored vertically too instead of long ways, again to save space.

I hope there is more than the two tables that GWR had per coach on the HST's!

 

[Aspen90]

The main difference with EMR and GWR is that the EMR buffets are hardly used now with a trolley service already if there is catering on the service.


I hope there is more than the two tables that GWR had per coach on the HST's!

I just looked again - standard class contains across the 4.5 coaches that contain standard, 2,6,4 and 2 tables.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

I just looked again - standard class contains across the 4.5 coaches that contain standard, 2,6,4 and 2 tables.

Sorry 3.5 coaches…

 

[TheBigD]

@Aspen90

What's the luggage space provision like?
How many luggage stacks per vehicle?

 

[Aspen90]

@Aspen90

What's the luggage space provision like?
How many luggage stacks per vehicle?

2,2,2,1

 

[bluelagoon8951]

I believe they will have a trolley provision in standard with a galley for catering in first.

very late but i work for the company that does standard class catering for emr, i can confirm that we will be doing a trolley service - there will be a buffet bar that we serve from when it gets busy

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2023 ==

Boo. Whats the obsession with trolleys. They are crap compared to a proper buffet. How are you supposed to get hot food from a trolley? Or proper coffee? Or actually COLD COLD beer wine spirit mixer etc??

And you can not go and get it instantly you have to wait for it to come to you.

not passenger friendly

The DfT have said no to the buffet. They have full control of every pound spent on them. Remember they want rid of catering, and catering staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

One thing I was surprised with when I saw the unit planform was the reduction in tables. There’s barely any tables in each coach. So when it comes to capacity I’m guessing they’ve increased that by reducing table space. The TM has a proper little office on these though which they’re pleased with. The bikes are to be stored vertically too instead of long ways, again to save space.

the obsession with trolleys, from the perspective of the company i work for, is that they generate more income. when we run a trolley we make 3-4x as much money as when we stand in the buffet and let passengers come to us.

there will definitely be at least somewhere fixed that we store the trolley - things are changing. with 222s (and 158s/170s on liverpool and skegness routes) we keep the trolley in a service centre overnight, then take it with us for our shift. we have been told that this changes with 810s. the trolley stays in a dedicated space on the train when we're not using it. i'd assume that this means a buffet area.

 

[Wyrleybart]

very late but i work for the company that does standard class catering for emr, i can confirm that we will be doing a trolley service - there will be a buffet bar that we serve from when it gets busy

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2023 ==




the obsession with trolleys, from the perspective of the company i work for, is that they generate more income. when we run a trolley we make 3-4x as much money as when we stand in the buffet and let passengers come to us.

there will definitely be at least somewhere fixed that we store the trolley - things are changing. with 222s (and 158s/170s on liverpool and skegness routes) we keep the trolley in a service centre overnight, then take it with us for our shift. we have been told that this changes with 810s. the trolley stays in a dedicated space on the train when we're not using it. i'd assume that this means a buffet area.

Thanks for that "bluelagoon". It does make a lot of sense and logic. As a passenger I imagine some is more likely to buy food and drink if it s there in front of them, simply because I am guessing most pax don't want to leave their seat and belongings and walk to the "buffet car". Me personally, I always buy my own food / snacks and drink prior to my journey. In my case I never drink hot drinks though so a bottle of water never goes cold !!!

 

[DDB]

the obsession with trolleys, from the perspective of the company i work for, is that they generate more income. when we run a trolley we make 3-4x as much money as when we stand in the buffet and let passengers come to us.

Thanks for posting this. As I always suspected, people on here say passengers prefer buffets to trolleys but actually when it comes down to it, passengers actually prefer trolleys as demonstrated by their spending.

The reason I always suspected this was because the people who access to the data and whose jobs depend on getting it right, choose to provide trolleys rather than buffets.

 

[Benjwri]

passengers actually prefer trolleys as demonstrated by their spending.

The reason I always suspected this was because the people who access to the data and whose jobs depend on getting it right, choose to provide trolleys rather than buffets.

Passengers prefer trolleys when they actually act as a trolley. I can count on two hands the number of times I've actually seen the GWR trolley, normally the location of a 'static' trolley is mumbled through the PA and it becomes a game of hide and seek.

 

[liamf656]

very late but i work for the company that does standard class catering for emr, i can confirm that we will be doing a trolley service - there will be a buffet bar that we serve from when it gets busy

I’m afraid that’s incorrect. In terms of catering facilities on the 810s there will be no buffet counter and it will be a trolley service all round. The trolley will be stored in the galley in a similar fashion to GWR, however you’re right in that it won’t be removed from the train

 

[Bald Rick]

As I always suspected, people on here say passengers prefer buffets to trolleys but actually when it comes down to it, passengers actually prefer trolleys as demonstrated by their spending.

Pedantically… people on here say they themselves prefer buffets to Trolleys, and make this Forum’s most common mistake in assuming that everyone else thinks like them.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Pedantically… people on here say they themselves prefer buffets to Trolleys, and make this Forum’s most common mistake in assuming that everyone else thinks like them.

I agree with that comment. A lot of people assume their hypothesis is the correct one, but trends change. As I commented, I don't drink anything hot so I can survive all day from either my own drinks or from a shop. I do recognise that many others enjoy hot drinks which are more difficult to "self provide" !!!

 

[irish_rail]

Pedantically… people on here say they themselves prefer buffets to Trolleys, and make this Forum’s most common mistake in assuming that everyone else thinks like them.

You only need to listen to passengers constant moans about where is the trolley etc to realise they are only popular when they turn up quickly, and have a good range. But almost always it seems a request is made, and the answer is always , no sorry we are out of xyz. For a coffee or tea, I get the advantage of a trolley, but for anything more it just doesn't work well, and even for a coffee, its not exactly great when you have to wait 2 hours to get it.

 

[jfowkes]

You only need to listen to passengers constant moans about where is the trolley etc to realise they are only popular when they turn up quickly, and have a good range. But almost always it seems a request is made, and the answer is always , no sorry we are out of xyz. For a coffee or tea, I get the advantage of a trolley, but for anything more it just doesn't work well, and even for a coffee, its not exactly great when you have to wait 2 hours to get it.

I've always presumed you can just go and find the trolley if you want something right now? You don't have to wait for it to arrive at your seat.