UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[jon0844]

Many cars will be scrapped naturally by then, and if and when EVs become more affordable - especially second hand - there will be a more rapid switchover.

Better infrastructure for charging (including more ways for someone without a driveway), more people investing in solar/home batteries and other factors - like having more choice of EV cars, given many ICE cars (bar performance/luxury cars) are very simplistic with a limited choice of engine.

Plus two car households are at least likely to have one EV unless both cars are needed for those mythical 800 mile Sunday morning, mid-winter, non-stop drives.

 

[Mabs]

Ameland rescue: Crew jump off ship ablaze with cargo of 3,000 cars

One person died as fire took hold of the ship as it burned off the Dutch island of Ameland.

www.bbc.co.uk

EV are a fire risk. Hard to put out.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ameland rescue: Crew jump off ship ablaze with cargo of 3,000 cars

One person died as fire took hold of the ship as it burned off the Dutch island of Ameland.

www.bbc.co.uk

EV are a fire risk. Hard to put out.

ICE vehicles are a fire risk:

Yes and a cargo ship carrying cars caught fire a few weeks ago in the port of Newark New Jersey in the United States. No EVs involved:



(Emphasis added)

2 New Jersey firefighters died battling a blaze deep in a ship carrying 1,200 vehicles

Responding firefighters found five to seven vehicles already on fire when they reached the 10th floor of the cargo ship at Port Newark around 9:30 p.m. Wednesday.

www.fox19.com

Ships catch fire, it happens quite often. I'm not quite sure that this tells us anything useful about risks around EVs.

 

[david1212]

@Noddy

.... So I’ve had a quick look: The government ‘aims’ to have a minimum of six ‘high powered’ chargers at every service station in England by the end of 2023.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/going-the-distance-are-motorways-ready-for-more-electric-vehicles/

I did mention this in my earlier post (it got merged in so you may have missed). The government ‘aim’ is to have 6 ultra-rapid at every service station in England. I think the issue is not so much building them, they’re fairly small footprint typically built on existing car parks in service stations, but getting the grid connections in. Gridserve recently opened a new charging station at Cornwall Services for 12 vehicles (6 ultra-fast, six slow for overnight charging) but in order to this have had to develop a hybrid system involving a 1MWh battery and solar panels to allow them to operate at that site and even then they’re not operating at full capacity while the system is bedded in (ie they know it works).

GRIDSERVE accelerates High Power EV charging with UK-first battery and solar power innovation at Cornwall Services | GRIDSERVE

GRIDSERVE, the technology market leader in EV (Electric Vehicle) charging, has delivered another UK first at Cornwall Services with a new solution that combines the latest innovations in batteries and solar energy to supplement the existing grid connection to deliver ten times the charging...

www.gridserve.com

Sorry .... yes I missed this.

A 1MWh battery and solar panels must have added significantly to the cost above that if the grid could supply say 1.5MW 24/7/52 if the demand was there.

I think the bigger issue is that it seems very unlikely that this ‘aim’ will be met. But as I say a lot of this seems to be down to the grid connections issue, especially as many services stations are actually located in fairly rural isolated locations, rather than a lack of desire by companies to build them.

It doesn't say that they aim for all 6 of the chargers to work at high power at the same time.

It's almost like you think the government might be inclined to bend the truth with targets, that'll never happen...

Six high power chargers at each service station is far too few to encourage anyone buying / taking on a new lease now to choose a pure EV if they regularly travel long distance on motorways.

The vast majority of electric cars can’t take the maximum that a 150KW+charger can provide so if the X number of chargers are load balancing between the different cars that are plugged in it wont make much of a difference to the user*.
*most 400 volt cars can only take 100-150KW maximum and even the 800 volt Ionic 6 only takes 233KW max so that still theoretically leaves over 100KW to spare at a modern 350KW charger.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2023 ==

While true now if except for small cars i.e. anything Astra, Golf etc size and larger the standard battery becomes 75+kWh capacity to 80% charge in under 30 minutes a charge rate of 150kW or close to would be required. Add in transit size vans and minibuses with a battery capacity of 100kWh+ then a charge rate of 200kW or close to would be required.

 

[jon0844]

Cars are coming with 500-600+ mile ranges. The peak charging speed is only for a relatively short time on most cars, which is why the smarter EV owners presumably don't charge to even 80% let alone 100% - they can do shorter stops (which better work with toilet stops and grabbing a drink) more regularly*.

Given most people will charge from home, or possibly at their destination, how much demand is there for all of these motorway service station chargers anyway? It's only for people who can't do A to B in one go, and I do wonder how many people in a car capable of doing 200+ miles are having to charge mid-way anyway, and those that do aren't clued up on where to charge (and how to save money).

I don't have an EV so haven't done that level of research, but once you have one then surely you will? The only people who won't do any research and get caught out are those who have columns in the Daily Mail or The Telegraph it seems.

* Over the years, I rarely drive without stopping. One would assume that anyone in an ICE car never has time to stop anywhere, so the thought of stopping for 15 minutes suddenly makes a journey impossible.

 

[PeterC]

Given most people will charge from home, or possibly at their destination, how much demand is there for all of these motorway service station chargers anyway? It's only for people who can't do A to B in one go, and I do wonder how many people in a car capable of doing 200+ miles are having to charge mid-way anyway, and those that do aren't clued up on where to charge (and how to save money).



* Over the years, I rarely drive without stopping. One would assume that anyone in an ICE car never has time to stop anywhere, so the thought of stopping for 15 minutes suddenly makes a journey impossible.

This year I have regularly seen queues for chargers at MSAs so a lot of people do seem to need charging away from home.

I happily take breaks on a long journey, I would object to being forced to take my refreshment break in an MSA especially on a trip that my current car will make on a full tank.

 

[87electric]

Nope.

Well let’s hope the EV batteries maintain an excellent safety record. It would only take one major incident (no doubt sensationalized by the media) to jeopardise the industry. Thermal runway is not a small teething problem, it’s serious.

 

[trebor79]

Well let’s hope the EV batteries maintain an excellent safety record. It would only take one major incident (no doubt sensationalized by the media) to jeopardise the industry. Thermal runway is not a small teething problem, it’s serious.

Battery Management Systems are improving all the time to make this issue a vanishingly small risk. And some chemistries such as LFP can't suffer thermal runaway in any case.

 

[jon0844]

This year I have regularly seen queues for chargers at MSAs so a lot of people do seem to need charging away from home.

I happily take breaks on a long journey, I would object to being forced to take my refreshment break in an MSA especially on a trip that my current car will make on a full tank.

On my travels that involve a toilet stop, I've never seen queues yet, but I do wonder if people are queuing for convenience or laziness when there are likely other options nearby.

I'll go off a motorway to find a cheaper petrol station or to eat, but will use the services for a toilet stop. There might also be people with company cars that must use certain chargers.

When the Daily Mail did its big story suggesting EV owners were left stranded, plenty of people looked up to see that there was real need for anyone to queue.

Admittedly, some cars are better then others for planning routes with charging or checking the availability of a charger, and the driver just presumably know what they're doing to use the tools. Some cars don't make that easy, so you're left using your phone (which isn't really practical or safe if driving alone as many people will be).

 

[Noddy]

Sorry .... yes I missed this.

No worries!

A 1MWh battery and solar panels must have added significantly to the cost above that if the grid could supply say 1.5MW 24/7/52 if the demand was there.

Yes, it will have cost more to install but I think the only other option was to continue with the two existing 60KW chargers.

Six high power chargers at each service station is far too few to encourage anyone buying / taking on a new lease now to choose a pure EV if they regularly travel long distance on motorways.

Yes 6 will definitely be too few going forwards but this is 2023, not 2030 or 2035 or 2040. Norway are 5 years ahead of us and are on target to ban sale of non-hybrid ICE cars from 2025, with EV only sales currently at 80%+. However, the total Norwegian EV fleet is still only around 30% of the total. So you don’t currently need to have millions of chargers everywhere as they would simply be a waste of investment. The other issue is that most people simply don’t need to use public charging very often (I’ve had my EV for a few months and done it twice). Yes there are some people that do a lot of motorway miles all day everyday but that is a very small % of folk. And if they are in that situation I would recommend getting a Tesla, which has a great private network, and if you buy an older one will be free!

While true now if except for small cars i.e. anything Astra, Golf etc size and larger the standard battery becomes 75+kWh capacity to 80% charge in under 30 minutes a charge rate of 150kW or close to would be required. Add in transit size vans and minibuses with a battery capacity of 100kWh+ then a charge rate of 200kW or close to would be required.

75kw+ is a large battery for Astras/Golf size cars. My Cupra Born which is this size has a 58KWh battery which I easily get 180 mile motorway range from. This is three hours driving!

Most standard new ultrafast chargers (including those at the aforementioned mentioned Cornwall Services) run by the major players (Gridserve, Tesla, Ionity, etc) are already in excess of 200KW so a bit of balancing really isn’t the end of the world, especially as I say no cars on the road today can handle the top charging speeds offered by the chargers.

However, most importantly you would never ever charge from 0-100% (which you are basing your calculations on) at a motorway because of the cost and time (and the fact if you were already on 0% you would have really pushed it). You would charge up to the amount to safely reach your destination (if you charge beyond this point you’re chucking money away), or 80% because the speed of charging will slow significantly after this point and it is quicker to just move on to the next fast charger 150miles down the road rather than trying to eek out the last few %.

 

[Energy]

75kw+ is a large battery for Astras/Golf size cars. My Cupra Born which is this size has a 58KWh battery which I easily get 180 mile motorway range from. This is three hours driving!

The new Astra Electric is a 54kwh battery, does around 250 miles of range and initial reports say around 4.8 miles per kwh on a motorway so should be good. I'd expect this to be the trend of high efficiency, even with the price of li ion dropping the battery will still be one of the most expensive components.

Its a shame that Stellantis have priced the Astra Electric terribly.

 

[renegademaster]

I live in an Edwardian outer london neighbourhood with little off street parking. If you just count the number of lampposts , and the number of cars, lamppost charging means 60% of the current owners of cars in the street arent going to be able to own cars. Going to public charging points isnt going to work either, petrol stations already have big queues of uber drivers waiting to use charging points

 

[Noddy]

I live in an Edwardian outer london neighbourhood with little off street parking. If you just count the number of lampposts , and the number of cars, lamppost charging means 60% of the current owners of cars in the street arent going to be able to own cars. Going to public charging points isnt going to work either, petrol stations already have big queues of uber drivers waiting to use charging points

But no one needs to be plugged in all day everyday. If, for example, you do a 20 mile commute every day and 50 miles at the weekend, you would only need to charge once a week (with a typical 50KWh+ car).

 

[AM9]

But no one needs to be plugged in all day everyday. If, for example, you do a 20 mile commute every day and 50 miles at the weekend, you would only need to charge once a week (with a typical 50KWh+ car).

It's just another post trotting out the usual misconceptions put out by anti-EV spokesmen. If there is a genuine need for every regularly parked car to have access, additional charging posts will be installed, - of course when the actual demand is there, no years before they will be used. Similarly, the existing charging points at local garages are there to meet thecorrent numbers of users, not post 2030.

 

[The Ham]

But no one needs to be plugged in all day everyday. If, for example, you do a 20 mile commute every day and 50 miles at the weekend, you would only need to charge once a week (with a typical 50KWh+ car).

Indeed, even if your travel 45 miles a weekday and 75 at the weekend you'd only need two charges a week, which would be change on 28% of days (which isn't the same as 28% of the time).

 

[paul1609]

Im looking at changing my car, I tend to stick with vehicles for 5 to 10 years. I don't currently have off road parking (charging) but do have space to put it in. Having driven most of the lower market Evs and Full Hybrids I think in terms of Cost and Usability the Full Hybrid is the clear winner. Having not really looked at cars for about 7 years I was shocked at how good the Toyota and Hyundai Hybrids have become. The Toyota Aygo cross I can't even work out how in rural driving it manages to be in Electric mode so much it seems to defy the laws of physics! i think if i lived in a big city a full ev might make more sense. As it currently stands with the type of journeys I generally do however a full hybrid is the clear winner.

 

[NoRoute]

The Toyota Aygo cross I can't even work out how in rural driving it manages to be in Electric mode so much it seems to defy the laws of physics!

It's because the electric has been generated by the petrol engine. In a regular, non-plug-in hybrid they have a very small battery and the engine is continually starting, driving the wheels and at the same time charging up the little battery, then the engine shuts-down and the car runs in 'EV' mode using the electric which it has put into the battery, repeating continually according to road conditions. There's also some energy recovery during the braking but most of it is coming from the engine.

 

[AM9]

It's because the electric has been generated by the petrol engine. In a regular, non-plug-in hybrid they have a very small battery and the engine is continually starting, driving the wheels and at the same time charging up the little battery, then the engine shuts-down and the car runs in 'EV' mode using the electric which it has put into the battery, repeating continually according to road conditions. There's also some energy recovery during the braking but most of it is coming from the engine.

That's why I think that the sales pitch term "self-charging hybrid" shouldn't be allowed, - it's actually an untruth, burning petrol to charge a battery isn't 'self-charging' in an environmental context.

 

[gg1]

It's because the electric has been generated by the petrol engine. In a regular, non-plug-in hybrid they have a very small battery and the engine is continually starting, driving the wheels and at the same time charging up the little battery, then the engine shuts-down and the car runs in 'EV' mode using the electric which it has put into the battery, repeating continually according to road conditions.

Not quite as straightforward as that:

There are four modes my hybrid Kia operates in which are selected automatically based on road conditions and current battery charge level, you mention:
1 - engine drives both the wheels and charges the battery
2 - engine off with battery power driving the wheels

In addition you can also have:
3 - both battery and engine driving the wheels simultaneously
4 - engine driving the wheels but battery is neither being charged or providing power

 

[paul1609]

It's because the electric has been generated by the petrol engine. In a regular, non-plug-in hybrid they have a very small battery and the engine is continually starting, driving the wheels and at the same time charging up the little battery, then the engine shuts-down and the car runs in 'EV' mode using the electric which it has put into the battery, repeating continually according to road conditions. There's also some energy recovery during the braking but most of it is coming from the engine.

Indeed but the system seems to be incredibly intelligent now especially compared to the last Toyota Prius I drove 5 years ago. The Yaris Cross I had on an extended test drive from the dealer in Tunbridge Wells through the lanes 30 to 50 mph was running in EV mode nearly 70% of the time and was according to the trip computer achieving an average (just) over 60 mpg. For my usage that means the full hybrid actually has lower running costs than the equivalent EV, that's without taking in to account the extra upfront costs of the EV.

 

[NoRoute]

The Yaris Cross I had on an extended test drive from the dealer in Tunbridge Wells through the lanes 30 to 50 mph was running in EV mode nearly 70% of the time and was according to the trip computer achieving an average (just) over 60 mpg. For my usage that means the full hybrid actually has lower running costs than the equivalent EV, that's without taking in to account the extra upfront costs of the EV.

Current petrol price is around 144p/litre, or £6.55 per gallon. The 'EV' part of the Yaris operation is included in the 60mpg calculation, at 60mpg, that would be 11p/mile.

A smaller EV is going to get a minimum of 3 miles per kWh, so it depends on whether you can charge at home, if you can then at worst on a flat rate tariff it's likely the EV will be slightly cheaper per mile, on an off-peak EV tariff it will be considerably cheaper. But if you don't have off-road parking with an electricity supply and are limited to public charging and paying higher costs, then the Yaris will likely come out ahead

 

[Energy]

Current petrol price is around 144p/litre, or £6.55 per gallon. The 'EV' part of the Yaris operation is included in the 60mpg calculation, at 60mpg, that would be 11p/mile.

I'd be interested how the Yaris holds up for a drive longer than the range. The great mpg usually plumits once the battery runs out and suddenly its an efficient engine but with a heavy battery being carried around.

Plug in hybrids work for people who have the majority of their driving within the electric range but regularly drive long distances (over 200 miles round trip) with great difficulty charging elsewhere. And these trips need to be regular enough that using your partners car is inconvenient.

A smaller EV is going to get a minimum of 3 miles per kWh, so it depends on whether you can charge at home, if you can then at worst on a flat rate tariff it's likely the EV will be slightly cheaper per mile, on an off-peak EV tariff it will be considerably cheaper. But if you don't have off-road parking with an electricity supply and are limited to public charging and paying higher costs, then the Yaris will likely come out ahead

Depends on how frequently you top up the battery, if its almost never then the car is lugging about a heavy battery while only using a small bit for regen. If its once a week then it could make sense.

Having driven most of the lower market Evs and Full Hybrids I think in terms of Cost and Usability the Full Hybrid is the clear winner. Having not really looked at cars for about 7 years I was shocked at how good the Toyota and Hyundai Hybrids have become. The Toyota Aygo cross I can't even work out how in rural driving it manages to be in Electric mode so much it seems to defy the laws of physics! i think if i lived in a big city a full ev might make more sense. As it currently stands with the type of journeys I generally do however a full hybrid is the clear winner.

Out of interest what is your regular mileage like?

 

[paul1609]

Current petrol price is around 144p/litre, or £6.55 per gallon. The 'EV' part of the Yaris operation is included in the 60mpg calculation, at 60mpg, that would be 11p/mile.

A smaller EV is going to get a minimum of 3 miles per kWh, so it depends on whether you can charge at home, if you can then at worst on a flat rate tariff it's likely the EV will be slightly cheaper per mile, on an off-peak EV tariff it will be considerably cheaper. But if you don't have off-road parking with an electricity supply and are limited to public charging and paying higher costs, then the Yaris will likely come out ahead

I was using 140p per litre (its currently 139.9 in the local garage). My electricity is 40p kwh peak, 14p kwh off peak (22.30 to 00.30 and 02.30 to 07.30 GMT).
I found using the 13 A socket I was getting an EV charging efficiency of around 85%. Im really tied to the off peak electric because there's no mains gas in this part of the country. My annual mileage6 to 8K pa but that's mostly limited to longer journeys visiting family and to football matches and holidays so Im afraid that public charging would be unavoidable even if I put in a driveway and charging box. i also have a motorbike for solo journeys. My temporary home charging for the trial had the MG 4 on the lawn but that wouldn't work after wet weather.

 

[trebor79]

Plug in hybrids work for people who have the majority of their driving within the electric range but regularly drive long distances (over 200 miles round trip) with great difficulty charging elsewhere. And these trips need to be regular enough that using your partners car is inconvenient.

Hybrids are utterly pointless. I regularly do 400 miles in a day and over 1,000 miles on a week in my EV and have had no issues at all with charging.

 

[PeterC]

Hybrids are utterly pointless. I regularly do 400 miles in a day and over 1,000 miles on a week in my EV and have had no issues at all with charging.

To an off-grid location with a route that is nowhere near a charger at the time when you need to take a break?

We all have our individual use cases and don't all spend out time shuttling up and down motorways with fast chargers every couple of dozen miles.

For me increasing public charger availability has made an EV less unattractive than it was when this thread was started but an ICE or full hybrid is still a better fit.

 

[paul1609]

Hybrids are utterly pointless. I regularly do 400 miles in a day and over 1,000 miles on a week in my EV and have had no issues at all with charging.

I think if the on the road price of a Tesla Model 3 was around £25k instead of £40k or the leasing payments around £250 pcm instead of £500 Id tend to agree with you, but the day to day running costs of a sub £40k EV are now the same as a full hybrid(obviously it depends on your individual circumstances) and the EV premium can't be justified as far as I can see.

 

[NoRoute]

I'd be interested how the Yaris holds up for a drive longer than the range. The great mpg usually plumits once the battery runs out and suddenly its an efficient engine but with a heavy battery being carried around.

The Yaris is a regular hybrid, rather than a plug-in, so it will get somewhere around 60mpg all the time running purely off petrol.

I was using 140p per litre (its currently 139.9 in the local garage). My electricity is 40p kwh peak, 14p kwh off peak (22.30 to 00.30 and 02.30 to 07.30 GMT).
I found using the 13 A socket I was getting an EV charging efficiency of around 85%.

So about 10.6p/mile in the hybrid, but charging the EV off-peak then around 5.5p/mile when home-charging, so the EV having about half the fuel cost of the hybrid.

 

[Energy]

but the day to day running costs of a sub £40k EV are now the same as a full hybrid(obviously it depends on your individual circumstances) and the EV premium can't be justified as far as I can see.

If you have off street charging they really aren't.

Overnight EV rates are about 9.5p per kwh (from both Eon and Octopus)
An efficient electric car would be doing 4-4.5 miles per kwh (some are reaching higher) so lets assume 4.
That gives a 2.4p per mile cost for off street charging

Meanwhile average price for unleaded petrol right now is 144p per litre or 655p per gallon
Assuming a high mpg of 60 (more likely to be 45-50 once the battery has run out)
That gives a cost of 10.9p per mile.

The comparison here heavily favours petrol with low estimates for EV efficiency and high estimates for mpg.

The Yaris is a regular hybrid, rather than a plug-in, so it will get somewhere around 60mpg all the time running purely off petrol.

The Aygo X doesn't appear to have any hybrid model so I'm a bit confused on what @paul1609 drove

 

[trebor79]

To an off-grid location with a route that is nowhere near a charger at the time when you need to take a break?

If the return journey is beyond the range if the car, I'm going to have charge. So I'd charge on the outbound to make sure I'm not stranded with low battery. And if it's that far I'd want to stop anyway.
It's not rocket science.
Hybrids are just a really crap EV (small battery) logging around a petrol engine, and then a petrol engine lugging around a battery pack.

I think if the on the road price of a Tesla Model 3 was around £25k instead of £40k or the leasing payments around £250 pcm instead of £500 Id tend to agree with you, but the day to day running costs of a sub £40k EV are now the same as a full hybrid(obviously it depends on your individual circumstances) and the EV premium can't be justified as far as I can see.

My Tesla model 3 costs less than 2p a mile charged at home, and between 6p and 11p a mile if charged at a Tesla Supercharger.
Significantly cheaper than buying petrol.

You can buy used Tesla model S for £20k, some of which have free supercharging so potentially zero fuel costs.

MG4 you can buy brand new for £25k. Decent car with 250 mile range. Loads of options out there that are way cheaper than £40k

 

[paul1609]

My Tesla model 3 costs less than 2p a mile charged at home, and between 6p and 11p a mile if charged at a Tesla Supercharger.
Significantly cheaper than buying petrol.

You can buy used Tesla model S for £20k, some of which have free supercharging so potentially zero fuel costs.

MG4 you can buy brand new for £25k. Decent car with 250 mile range. Loads of options out there that are way cheaper than £40k

I presume that for the Octopus tariff to makes sense for your EV to charge at that sort of rates you must heat your home with fossil fuels?
I have driven a Tesla Model S from Exel Centre in Docklands to the lake district basically because my brothers employer needed to borrow my Hilux. Technology wise its an impressive concept but the build quality was on a par with a Reliant Robin and not something Id touch with a barge pole secondhand Im afraid.
The standard range MG4 had a motorway range of about 185 miles in my test. From home going north I was looking for chargers by about Grantham. It couldn't also do a return trip to Portsmouth. Ive not had a long range on test but the same dealer I got the SE from reckons its good for about 230 miles because with the bigger battery there's also a bigger motor, the price of the LR models was about £32k when I enquired. To be honest for that sort of money Id want a absolute minimum range of 250 miles. the ability to do a return trip to Pompey for an evening game without faffing around charging is an absolute must in my book.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2023 ==

The Aygo X doesn't appear to have any hybrid model so I'm a bit confused on what @paul1609 drove

Yes my bad, The Yaris Cross was what I drove. Ive previously had a an Aygo as a courtesy car when the exhaust was repaired on my Hilux