Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[yorksrob]

The 'consultation' will doubtless flounder once the legal challenges get underway. Blind Veterans has helpfully pointed out that no information has been provided in braille - funny how the very people likely to be worst affected by station destaffing are the ones excluded from the consultation.

If the Government wanted a popular policy, they could try getting the passenger timetable running correctly and consistently.

Just a thought, albeit probably 'dangerously radical' to them.

 

[mason200]

Interesting article in the Mirror tonight.

Train ticket office cull in chaos as crisis talks could last until September

Ministers and train companies have been spooked over legal challenges to how the process has been conducted, amid claims that the 21 day consultation was too short and unlawful

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Geeves]

Northern's 'voluntary leavers scheme' is open (again) from the 27th. It mentions changes in the business so you know where it's aimed at despite not saying so directly. I suspect many will take the offer and not just in the affected areas

 

[VItraveller]

According to the Mirror, looks like the consultation deadline could be extended.

Train ticket office cull in chaos as crisis talks could last until September

Ministers and train companies have been spooked over legal challenges to how the process has been conducted, amid claims that the 21 day consultation was too short and unlawful

www.mirror.co.uk

Train ticket office cull in CHAOS as crisis talks over closures could last until September

 

[The exile]

Oh look, even the Chancellor is opposed to ticket office closures:

Jeremy Hunt tried to stop rail ticket office closures in own area before cuts

Passengers only have until Wednesday to have their say on the devastating proposals put forward by train operators to close ticket offices at 974 stations across England

www.mirror.co.uk

Anyone fancy pointing out to him that he is ultimately responsible for them?

Looks like the opening shot for the next leadership election!

 

[Typhoon]

Oh look, even the Chancellor is opposed to ticket office closures:

Jeremy Hunt tried to stop rail ticket office closures in own area before cuts

Passengers only have until Wednesday to have their say on the devastating proposals put forward by train operators to close ticket offices at 974 stations across England

www.mirror.co.uk

Anyone fancy pointing out to him that he is ultimately responsible for them?

I think it more likely that the Chancellor is opposed to two or three ticket office closures in a particular part of the leafy south east (on the way to Portsmouth if I can remember my student days correctly). It will be the Constituency Party Summer Fete coming up and he will fear an ear-bashing from some of the more mature (probably female) attendees whose idea of modern technology is the electric typewriter (exaggeration). There will be a few similar ministers in a similar positions. They will just want to say that they tried and hope it is forgotten this time next year.

Unfortunately for the residents of Battle and Bexhill any attempts at saving their ticket offices are doomed from the start, the minister responsible must set an example.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it more likely that the Chancellor is opposed to two or three ticket office closures in a particular part of the leafy south east (on the way to Portsmouth if I can remember my student days correctly). It will be the Constituency Party Summer Fete coming up and he will fear an ear-bashing from some of the more mature (probably female) attendees whose idea of modern technology is the electric typewriter (exaggeration). There will be a few similar ministers in a similar positions. They will just want to say that they tried and hope it is forgotten this time next year.

Unfortunately for the residents of Battle and Bexhill any attempts at saving their ticket offices are doomed from the start, the minister responsible must set an example.

Quite. Opposing ticket office closures is not the stuff leadership bids are made of. It is however the stuff a constituency MP would worry about making sure that their next leaflet/newsletter/Facebook Post can say:

"I tried to stop the nasty train companies closing our local ticket offices*

*Please ignore that as chancellor my department was one of the major driving forces behind the closure. "

 

[Killingworth]

It's time everyone stood back and took stock.

The 'consultation' has been badly handled and should have allowd a longer period. That's eassy to fix.

Closing so many offices in 18 months is too rushed. That can be extended.

For true consultation more detailed information is needed for each station to explain exactly what is proposed.

Ticket options are far too extensive and urgently need simplification.

Buying preferences are changing quite fast and once users get used to buying away from ticket offices most manage to do so.

All ticket offices have restrictions on hours (and many stations are totally umannrd). Potential users outside those hours need to plan to call within those times.

Ticket machines vary greatly across TOCs and the country. Some are much easier to use than others but they can go out of service without warning.

A very small number of potential users have disabilties. It might be more effective to arrange then a disability railcard with 24/7 free rail transport than keeping ticket offices for them.

Station information doesn't have to be supplied by a ticket office..

Staffing of all public and operational aspects of stations needs a thorough review. This public consultation is not the best way to do that.


In recent years the only really busy ticket office I've seen was at Manchester Airport, totally besieged by crowds of international travellers blocking access to platforms. From the babble of voices I suspect many wanted information as much as tickets The numbers were swollen by familes and space was taken with all their luggage. If anything, at that time, more customer service was needed, not less. Service that could also sell tickets.

Compare that with my littlex station that hasn't had a ticket office for over 50 years. We have a Northern TVM that offers video assistance. It doesn't get used because few know it's available. When you learn what it can do it's a good machine, but it does take time to find your way round. And it has off days!

Summing up. 18 months is too short a period for a revision of such magnitude. One size does not fit all A lot od ticket offices will need to go but a much better explanation of what comes next is needed.

 

[12LDA28C]

The consultation has officially been extended for 35 days, now concluding on 1st September.

Seems like there was more of a backlash than expected...

 

[Killingworth]

The consultation has officially been extended for 35 days, now concluding on 1st September.

Seems like there was more of a backlash than expected...

If they hadn't expected a backlash they were flying blind. Using a sledge hammer instead of a scalpel has got them that response

 

[Typhoon]

It's time everyone stood back and took stock.

......

All ticket offices have restrictions on hours (and many stations are totally umanned). Potential users outside those hours need to plan to call within those times.

.........

Summing up. 18 months is too short a period for a revision of such magnitude. One size does not fit all A lot of ticket offices will need to go but a much better explanation of what comes next is needed.

A good summary of the situation, can I thank you for that? I guess you don't work for the DfT?

The italicised section - a particular bugbear. My nearest staffed station is supposed to be open to 19:00. The Help Point will confirm that and suggest that the staff are around the station (they are not, there is a note to say closed until tomorrow). It may be occasionally, some days it isn't open at all. Some days it is open well into the afternoon, some days it will be closed by 11:00. Some stations close for lunch (but not on the website), some don't. If people knew when ticket offices were open they could call between those times but it appears random. If there is a shortage of staff (and I suspect no 'if' about it) then adjust the published hours. I would suggest that if I turned up at say 15:00 at the staffed station and the ticket office was open, there would be no-one waiting because it was closed, yesterday at that time, as well as the day before, the week before, ... The consequence is that people who would pay are travelling free, the machine isn't working or won't sell them the ticket they need (they have a Rail Card for instance), they can't find a staff member on board having made a little or some effort before they reach their destination, no staff obvious there and they walk out. I know absence is unpredictable - but this seems just random.

 

[The exile]

Quite. Opposing ticket office closures is not the stuff leadership bids are made of. It is however the stuff a constituency MP would worry about making sure that their next leaflet/newsletter/Facebook Post can say:

"I tried to stop the nasty train companies closing our local ticket offices*

*Please ignore that as chancellor my department was one of the major driving forces behind the closure. "

It is if you / your advisers have suddenly realised that this is going to blow up in the government’s face and you want to make sure you distance yourself from it as much as a senior minister can without resigning.

 

[Geogregor]

If there is a shortage of staff (and I suspect no 'if' about it) then adjust the published hours. I would suggest that if I turned up at say 15:00 at the staffed station and the ticket office was open, there would be no-one waiting because it was closed, yesterday at that time, as well as the day before, the week before, ... The consequence is that people who would pay are travelling free, the machine isn't working or won't sell them the ticket they need (they have a Rail Card for instance), they can't find a staff member on board having made a little or some effort before they reach their destination, no staff obvious there and they walk out. I know absence is unpredictable - but this seems just random.

There is definitely a staff shortage. And it is deliberate. My company is deliberately running down ticket office staff in the last few years. As a result some offices are closed on more days than they are open, hardly any of them is open full publicized hours. On top of that the revenue enforcement is practically non-existent (which is separate but connected issue)

Now they can show how few tickets are sold in the ticket offices. Well, no surprise if they are so often closed and nobody check tickets (on our line few station have gates)...

Ok, I work on small stations in London area. Some of them do sell very few tickets (but sales are picking up recently) There is no point of me seating there for the whole day behind the glass and then to be send platform staff so they can clean platforms and do bins a few times a day.

I know changes are needed and I'm not against the change. However the current proposals are nonsensical.

So I will be standing there most day, supposedly smiling and helping with the TVM purchases. The problem is that those TVM keep breaking and they lack quite a few ticketing options. Ok, let's assume they get replaced (which will take years looking how procurement works here), there is still subset of people who have more complicated queries (long distant booking, checking connections etc.), people not familiar with digital options, older folks, disable people, tourists (I had group of 40 Polish students buying travelcards for three days the other day, try to do it in the TVM) etc.

My understanding is that I suppose to kindly send all of those people to hell (well, to use the internet) while a few meters away there is perfectly functional ticketing equipment I could use in a minute

I always though that the most logical step, if they really want stations manned, was to make my role more comprehensive. I should be responsible for all the station duties. Let's reduce ticket window guaranteed opening hours to 2-3 hours a day (maybe around 9-11am, when most older folks buy tickets) and for the rest of day I could do cleaning, customer service on platforms etc. Eventually open window only when requested, for example by partially sighted person.

The only reason for total removal of the ticket offices, that I can see, is that it is route to further destaffing of the stations (despite passenger preference for longer staffing hours) or replacement railway employees by the low paid agency staff.

 

[david1212]

There is definitely a staff shortage. And it is deliberate. My company is deliberately running down ticket office staff in the last few years. As a result some offices are closed on more days than they are open, hardly any of them is open full publicized hours. On top of that the revenue enforcement is practically non-existent (which is separate but connected issue)

Now they can show how few tickets are sold in the ticket offices. Well, no surprise if they are so often closed and nobody check tickets (on our line few station have gates)...

Ok, I work on small stations in London area. Some of them do sell very few tickets (but sales are picking up recently) There is no point of me seating there for the whole day behind the glass and then to be send platform staff so they can clean platforms and do bins a few times a day.

I know changes are needed and I'm not against the change. However the current proposals are nonsensical.

So I will be standing there most day, supposedly smiling and helping with the TVM purchases. The problem is that those TVM keep breaking and they lack quite a few ticketing options. Ok, let's assume they get replaced (which will take years looking how procurement works here), there is still subset of people who have more complicated queries (long distant booking, checking connections etc.), people not familiar with digital options, older folks, disable people, tourists (I had group of 40 Polish students buying travelcards for three days the other day, try to do it in the TVM) etc.

My understanding is that I suppose to kindly send all of those people to hell (well, to use the internet) while a few meters away there is perfectly functional ticketing equipment I could use in a minute

I always though that the most logical step, if they really want stations manned, was to make my role more comprehensive. I should be responsible for all the station duties. Let's reduce ticket window guaranteed opening hours to 2-3 hours a day (maybe around 9-11am, when most older folks buy tickets) and for the rest of day I could do cleaning, customer service on platforms etc. Eventually open window only when requested, for example by partially sighted person.

The only reason for total removal of the ticket offices, that I can see, is that it is route to further destaffing of the stations (despite passenger preference for longer staffing hours) or replacement railway employees by the low paid agency staff.

Hmmmm .... artifically creating low demand .... just like carefully timed surveys leading to the line closures 50 - 60 years ago.

Regarding standing by the TVM first the TVM has to be accessible all the hours the station is open so for many outside and second I thought the staff were supposed to be roving. I presumed all would have the same equipment as on train staff so would be independant of the TVM allowing parallel ticket sales. Otherwise the customer / passenger finds they can not complete their purchase(s) unassisted at the TVM, has to find the staff member then both join the back of the queue again.

 

[py_megapixel]

Hmmmm .... artifically creating low demand .... just like carefully timed surveys leading to the line closures 50 - 60 years ago.

Regarding standing by the TVM first the TVM has to be accessible all the hours the station is open so for many outside and second I thought the staff were supposed to be roving. I presumed all would have the same equipment as on train staff so would be independant of the TVM allowing parallel ticket sales. Otherwise the customer / passenger finds they can not complete their purchase(s) unassisted at the TVM, has to find the staff member then both join the back of the queue again.

Or the staff could always be at the TVM, helping customers with their purchases. Perhaps the customer could tell the member of staff what they want and the staff could enter the details and sell the ticket.

The TVM interface could be redesigned to be more efficient for staff with appropriate training.

Of course, it would be desirable to provide a building at stations with somewhere for the staff to sit down and somewhere for customers to stand while being served, probably with some sort of counter type arrangement.

Hmmm....

 

[Postman]

Gone through most of pages here. Beyond the pejorative Luddite stereotyping of those expressing concerns, rather feel this mass (proposed) closure to be a pretext to curtail ‘unworthy/budget’ users/fares to pave the way for HS2.

More generically (reading pages here) concur ticket offices provide ‘insurance’ etc. Beyond machine failure: power and internet failure/no connection; phone dead, lost, stolen; feeling unsafe at no-staff stations; big etc. Ticket office closure tends to have adverse domino effect ,including perceived/actual safety and availability of info, weatherproof waiting and WCs. Plenty of experience successfully reclaiming money on train journeys, but rather prefer, having paid for a ticket, not to anxiously proceed being fined/prosecuted due to non-compliant machine/s

 

[WatcherZero]

The consultation has officially been extended for 35 days, now concluding on 1st September.

Seems like there was more of a backlash than expected...

My interpretation is they were covering themselves legally by adding the accessible consultation formats and extending the deadline, probably trying to see off some of the arguments from the elected mayors legal challenge.

 

[eldomtom2]

A very small number of potential users have disabilties. It might be more effective to arrange then a disability railcard with 24/7 free rail transport than keeping ticket offices for them.

Well re: disabilities there's also the concern that overall there will be less staff at stations...

 

[eoff]

My interpretation is they were covering themselves legally by adding the accessible consultation formats and extending the deadline, probably trying to see off some of the arguments from the elected mayors legal challenge.

I'm not sure it is enough, people who wanted to respond may have already looked at what information was available to them and given up at that point. Just because a consultation is extended does not mean those people would go back and try again.

 

[infobleep]

Could staff be given a tablet with all the options of the office system and have it connect to a TMV for printing?

It would require the TMV to have additional ticket stock. That wouldn't help with blind people locating the member of staff though.

 

[Krokodil]

Could staff be given a tablet with all the options of the office system and have it connect to a TMV for printing?

It would require the TMV to have additional ticket stock. That wouldn't help with blind people locating the member of staff though.

That would defeat the object of eventually destaffing stations

 

[davews]

Well I had a foretaste this morning. Ticket office machine at Martins Heron broken (and I missed the big notice he had put in the window so disturbed his coffee break so he could point it out to me). Took me around five minutes to find the right fare on the TVM to Mitcham Junction with a senior railcard and pay. Those who use the machines regularly would have done it far quicker but for somebody who rarely uses the things nothing is obvious. Of course if the office closes I will be able to prepare ahead and get it from the website or whatever.

 

[12LDA28C]

Well I had a foretaste this morning. Ticket office machine at Martins Heron broken (and I missed the big notice he had put in the window so disturbed his coffee break so he could point it out to me). Took me around five minutes to find the right fare on the TVM to Mitcham Junction with a senior railcard and pay. Those who use the machines regularly would have done it far quicker but for somebody who rarely uses the things nothing is obvious. Of course if the office closes I will be able to prepare ahead and get it from the website or whatever.

Which begs the question which some on here will ask you - if you will 'be able to prepare ahead' in the future and 'get it from the website', why are you not doing that already? A vocal minority on this forum (not me) would call you a luddite for still using the TVM and / or ticket office.

 

[JD2168]

It is good news that the consultation has been extended, 21 days is too short for such a major proposal as this which affects many passengers each day.

 

[Killingworth]

Well re: disabilities there's also the concern that overall there will be less staff at stations...

And disabilities come in many forms, many not easily appreciated by others.

I visited my local unmanned station today on crutches and took a seat to observe. Currently I also have a visual problem (that may explain typos in my posts).

A train pulled in. The guard checked the platform and noted my presence. I feel sure that If I'd shown interest in boarding the train I'd have had consideration.

A train stopped and waited while the guard walked to the front of the train to deploy the ramp. With good humour an electric wheelchair was helped off.

I doubt there'd have been better assistance at manned Sheffield.

My disabilities are temporary but it's proving useful to better understand how it must be for many rail users every day.

 

[david1212]

Which begs the question which some on here will ask you - if you will 'be able to prepare ahead' in the future and 'get it from the website', why are you not doing that already? A vocal minority on this forum (not me) would call you a luddite for still using the TVM and / or ticket office.

I can't answer for @davews but for me because buying from the ticket office takes under a minute. Even if the ticket is one click on a TVM, so not have to work through a journey planner with date, outbound time, return time then have to select peak or off-peak, @davews had a railcard, this would take longer.
A website is much longer starting with logging in and after adding ticket to basket entering payment card details followed by security e.g. text code to phone.

 

[infobleep]

That would defeat the object of eventually destaffing stations

Do they really want to destaff stations completely? If they do that they would have to do something about the ticket gates at many stations, which are manned.

 

[Krokodil]

Do they really want to destaff stations completely? If they do that they would have to do something about the ticket gates at many stations, which are manned.

Some stations will be destaffed completely, others will gradually have the "journeymaker" floor walkers run down

 

[Killingworth]

I can't answer for @davews but for me because buying from the ticket office takes under a minute. Even if the ticket is one click on a TVM, so not have to work through a journey planner with date, outbound time, return time then have to select peak or off-peak, @davews had a railcard, this would take longer.
A website is much longer starting with logging in and after adding ticket to basket entering payment card details followed by security e.g. text code to phone.

For me buying from my Northern ap takes about a minute, depending on journey. Regular journeys are already held as are card details. I also have the aps of other TOCs aa icons available on my phone in case I have any difficulty with Northern.

I can buy my tickets from anywhere, at the station, in my armchair, on a train, even lying in bed. Just tried it. Better not try booking tomorrow, I'm immediately warned it's a strike day.

Once you get used to it its much the best way.

Snags? Travelling with another who likes to have her own ticket! Print it out from the confirmation email. Might lose/forget phone? Forward the emal to open on a second phone. Battery may go flat ? Carry a battery pack or charger. Most trains now have at seat charging points.

In Newcastle earlier this year I needed to change my train. As that was the station where I spotted over 60 years ago I looked around to find where the ticket office now was . Not easy to find like it used to be that was certain. For nostalgia reasons I bought from there having confirmed the train specific ticket I held was not valid. . Two lovely ladies with nobody else to serve so we had a nice chat. I'm sure at a busy large station that sort of customer service is still needed by some but I could easily have managed without.

 

[arb]

(Unrelated, but BRFares appears to be having difficulty showing +BUS tickets too, for some reason).

I've just tried a load in different parts of the country, for both origin and/or destination, and they all return 'no fares available'.

Are you trying to search for e.g. Ely to Cambridge+Bus? That doesn't work. You have to set the origin and destination to the same train station, one of them with the +Bus variant, e.g. Cambridge to Cambridge+Bus: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CBG&dest=J096&period=20230703