Electrifying Bristol's suburban rail

[The0]

This might be a completely terrible idea but wouldn't it be cool if Bristol electrified it's suburban rail network eg. The Severn beach line and brought some new electric trains like class 756s.

 

[Class15]

This might be a completely terrible idea but wouldn't it be cool if Bristol electrified it's suburban rail network eg. The Severn beach line and brought some new electric trains like class 756s.

Not a bad idea. Cost however…!

The DfT isn’t really looking at new projects for electrification right now, which is a shame.

 

[zwk500]

I was of the opinion that the Bristol Suburban and Cardiff Valley electrifications should have happened before the GWML electrification, so that the teams had a chance to 'cut their teeth' so to speak, before getting out onto the mainline for the runs out to London.

As for cost, given Filton Bank and Temple Meads are now electrification-ready (or nearly), and lots of enabling work was done for Chippenham-Bristol, it's only really the Portbury, Severn Beach and Weston-SM lines that need electrifying, which isn't that much STKM. Clifton Down tunnel is probably the single biggest problem to solve.

 

[A0]

This might be a completely terrible idea but wouldn't it be cool if Bristol electrified it's suburban rail network eg. The Severn beach line and brought some new electric trains like class 756s.

Severn Beach branch could be done with batteries - it's only 13 miles each way. That would be a much better idea than even considering electrification.

 

[lachlan]

Yes there feels like a lot of potential in the Bristol network - though whether the timetable could be tightened up without more double-tracking I don’t know. The other problem is long dwell times in Temple Meads resulting in cross-Bristol journey times feeling rather sluggish.

The line to Weston super Mare really ought to be electrified too allowing Bristol suburban trains and the London-Weston express trains to be fully electric (pending completion of Chippenham-Bristol)

 

[anthony263]

Really should get the electrification extended to Westbury from Newbury.

In addition the wires should be extended to Bristol TM and Weston Super mare along with Swansea.

GWR did say they if the wires were extended from Chippenham to Bristol TM they could use a emu.fitted with batteries with enough range to bridge the gap between Bathampton and Redbridge on.the Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr service.

Think battery fitted emus could be used on a few routes around Bristol if there was slightly more electrification done. Helps dft with freeing up dmus plus looks good on them for their green agenda.

What was the range of the batteries that were fitted to that 379 a few years ago?

 

[The0]

Really should get the electrification extended to Westbury from Newbury.

In addition the wires should be extended to Bristol TM and Weston Super mare along with Swansea.

GWR did say they if the wires were extended from Chippenham to Bristol TM they could use a emu.fitted with batteries with enough range to bridge the gap between Bathampton and Redbridge on.the Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr service.

Think battery fitted emus could be used on a few routes around Bristol if there was slightly more electrification done. Helps dft with freeing up dmus plus looks good on them for their green agenda.

What was the range of the batteries that were fitted to that 379 a few years ago?

They use the word could.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2023 ==

Probably means no sadly

 

[urbophile]

Not a bad idea. Cost however…!

The DfT isn’t really looking at new projects for electrification right now, which is a shame.

It's all that green crap innit! The ostrich-like behaviour of our politicians (not just the Tories) is tragic.

 

[Annetts key]

Absolutely yes, the “local” lines should be electrified around Bristol. A tidy sum of money is currently being spent on the roof at Bristol Temple Meads. Do we really want dirty diesel powered trains idling under it?

Even if the money cannot be found to fit OLE everywhere, at least provide some so that long distant trains can be fully electric. And use battery trains to cover the gaps for the “local” services.

Clifton Down tunnel was built for two tracks, but currently it’s only A single line through the tunnel. It’s the same situation through Montpelier tunnel.

The signalling between Shirehampton and Severn Beach was installed in 1988, and as such, would need alterations for it to become suitable for OLE.

Similarly, if the OHE was to be installed between Hallen March junction to Filton West (for Henbury), although this signalling is newer (1992/1993), it would also need some alterations for it to become suitable for OLE.

On this line, there is also Charlton Tunnel.

The Portbury / Portishead line has a number of tunnels. The line is single throughout all of them, however IIRC, only one was built for double track. As I understand it, any new work should be taking account of the possibility of OLE for the future.

The line between Weston-super-Mare and Bristol Temple Meads only has one tunnel, Flax Bourton. This is a relatively short tunnel.

Also, the signalling to the south-west of Flax Bourton dates from 1970/1974 with various changes since (some of track circuits are only around ten years old). So either replacement/relocking or extensive alterations would be needed.

There is however a problem with Bath Road bridge just to the south of Bristol Temple Meads. The track already has to dip down under the bridge.

And of course, all these lines have a variety of overbridges.

The lines between Bristol Temple Meads and Stoke Gifford junction (Bristol Parkway) / Patchway junction / Chippenham should all be OLE “ready”.

 

[A0]

Absolutely yes, the “local” lines should be electrified around Bristol. A tidy sum of money is currently being spent on the roof at Bristol Temple Meads. Do we really want dirty diesel powered trains idling under it?

Even if the money cannot be found to fit OLE everywhere, at least provide some so that long distant trains can be fully electric. And use battery trains to cover the gaps for the “local” services.

Clifton Down tunnel was built for two tracks, but currently it’s only A single line through the tunnel. It’s the same situation through Montpelier tunnel.

The signalling between Shirehampton and Severn Beach was installed in 1988, and as such, would need alterations for it to become suitable for OLE.

Similarly, if the OHE was to be installed between Hallen March junction to Filton West (for Henbury), although this signalling is newer (1992/1993), it would also need some alterations for it to become suitable for OLE.

On this line, there is also Charlton Tunnel.

The Portbury / Portishead line has a number of tunnels. The line is single throughout all of them, however IIRC, only one was built for double track. As I understand it, any new work should be taking account of the possibility of OLE for the future.

The line between Weston-super-Mare and Bristol Temple Meads only has one tunnel, Flax Bourton. This is a relatively short tunnel.

Also, the signalling to the south-west of Flax Bourton dates from 1970/1974 with various changes since (some of track circuits are only around ten years old). So either replacement/relocking or extensive alterations would be needed.

There is however a problem with Bath Road bridge just to the south of Bristol Temple Meads. The track already has to dip down under the bridge.

And of course, all these lines have a variety of overbridges.

The lines between Bristol Temple Meads and Stoke Gifford junction (Bristol Parkway) / Patchway junction / Chippenham should all be OLE “ready”.

Bits in bold - given that - why on earth would you go for electrification over batteries ? It's a relatively lightly used suburban branch line of less than 30 miles round trip. We already know battery technology is good enough for such uses as is already the case in other countries. There are other branches on the GWR network which will *never* justify electrification so a fleet of battery / hybrid units is going to be needed in any case, so rather than create a load of unnecessary cost, just order a fleet of battery units and deploy them onto those. No electrification works needed and removes diesels.

 

[Annetts key]

Bits in bold - given that - why on earth would you go for electrification over batteries ? It's a relatively lightly used suburban branch line of less than 30 miles round trip. We already know battery technology is good enough for such uses as is already the case in other countries. There are other branches on the GWR network which will *never* justify electrification so a fleet of battery / hybrid units is going to be needed in any case, so rather than create a load of unnecessary cost, just order a fleet of battery units and deploy them onto those. No electrification works needed and removes diesels.

Did you not read my second paragraph (bit in bold below)?

Absolutely yes, the “local” lines should be electrified around Bristol. A tidy sum of money is currently being spent on the roof at Bristol Temple Meads. Do we really want dirty diesel powered trains idling under it?

Even if the money cannot be found to fit OLE everywhere, at least provide some so that long distant trains can be fully electric. And use battery trains to cover the gaps for the “local” services.

I have absolutely no problem with battery trains being used. But there is a major electrical sub-station at Avonmouth (this is where the 400kV lines from Hinckley Point go, to connect to the wider grid), it may be worthwhile investigating if it’s worthwhile providing a short section of OLE for trains that use Severn Beach. Then the battery bank could be recharged while the train awaits the departure time to for the return journey.

If the Filton lines (BTM to BPW) are going to be electrified, why not include part of the Clifton Line (the part that does have OLE compatible signalling). That is, between Narroways Junction and Clifton Down tunnel.

Including short sections may be relatively cost effective as part of a bigger scheme. But would likely be completely unviable if done as separate individual projects.

There is no right answer until we know if the operator wants to run the “local” services as short “shuttle” services, or have longer runs. For example some Severn Beach / Avonmouth services go to Weston-super-Mare or other destinations.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I have absolutely no problem with battery trains being used. But there is a major electrical sub-station at Avonmouth (this is where the 400kV lines from Hinckley Point go, to connect to the wider grid), it may be worthwhile investigating if it’s worthwhile providing a short section of OLE for trains that use Severn Beach.

An alternative would be to get a 400kv grid connection to a railway substation just west of Yatton where this new power line and railway intersect.

I hope something is done soon. Temple Meads feels so backwards, full of noisy diesels. The 15x and 16x in this party of the world all feel incredibly slow, noisy and dated.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Bits in bold - given that - why on earth would you go for electrification over batteries ? It's a relatively lightly used suburban branch line of less than 30 miles round trip. We already know battery technology is good enough for such uses as is already the case in other countries. There are other branches on the GWR network which will *never* justify electrification so a fleet of battery / hybrid units is going to be needed in any case, so rather than create a load of unnecessary cost, just order a fleet of battery units and deploy them onto those. No electrification works needed and removes diesels.

Exactly OBB have committed to 150 Stadler FLIRT Akku BEMUS with 150km range on a full charge. These would cover everything in Bristol area easily and plenty of other lines worked by diesels under the wires across UK.

https://www.railtechnologymagazine....ns-green-rail-options-new-train-order-stadler

 

[Snow1964]

An alternative would be to get a 400kv grid connection to a railway substation just west of Yatton where this new power line and railway intersect.

I hope something is done soon. Temple Meads feels so backwards, full of noisy diesels. The 15x and 16x in this party of the world all feel incredibly slow, noisy and dated.

There is also a 400kv feeder at Beanacre (near Melksham)

The DMUs around Bristol are generally 31-34 years old (older than first generation DMUs when they were scrapped), a decision will be needed soon on what replaces them (bearing in mind can take 3-5 years to get new orders into service)

I agree the frequency of trains means Bristol suburban electrification should be a no brainer, to Weston-super-Mare, Henbury, Chippenham, Warminster/Frome, and probably Gloucester. On the basis that lines to Seven beach and Portishead can be wired with low speed catenary as long sidings (fed from one end) might be easier to add those than require battery units, especially if spare youngish EMUs are available

 

[Annetts key]

This a is Google maps link to the major sub-station at Avonmouth (link goes to a satellite view of a very large electricity sub-station/distribution facility).

The new 400kV power line goes straight over Yatton. I don’t think there are any 400kV sub-stations near Yatton. But it looks like there is going to be one near the village of Sandford. The next one is at Bridgwater. Bristol obviously has a large sub-station/distribution facility (not far from St. Philips Marsh depot as it happens).

There is also a 132kV sub-station/distribution facility between Portishead and Portbury Docks.

 

[anthony263]

Fit some class 350/2's with batteries and at least get the wires to Bristol TM

 

[Topological]

I think that bringing wires to Bristol from Parkway and from the East would be the first target. Down the Weston-Super-Mare makes sense as a follow up.

Keeping the branches as batteries feels best, possibly with charging wires near Severn Beach.

The more IET work that can go over to EMU the better. The IETs can then go to other routes where capacity is limited (e.g. Cross Country).

Battery EMUs around Bristol may provide more diesels to be sent into Cornwall (Yes it would be ideal for the wires to go all the way, but...)

 

[GardenRail]

This might be a completely terrible idea but wouldn't it be cool if Bristol electrified it's suburban rail network eg. The Severn beach line and brought some new electric trains like class 756s.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were serious about having a fully electrified National Network.

 

[Snow1964]

Really should be fairly easy to resume electrification to Bristol. So much work was already done. As example this is bridge over A350 (about 3 miles beyond current limit near Chippenham) and the masts are already erected, but wires were never put up.

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[zwk500]

Really should be fairly easy to resume electrification to Bristol. So much work was already done. As example this is bridge over A350 (about 3 miles beyond current limit near Chippenham) and the masts are already erected, but wires were never put up.

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The Issue with Chippenham-Bristol is Bath, specifically the city council's attitude to anything that might threaten it's UNESCO status. There was also the issue with waiting for Temple Meads to be remodelled to an electrification-ready state, which AIUI has now been done.

 

[eldomtom2]

The Issue with Chippenham-Bristol is Bath, specifically the city council's attitude to anything that might threaten it's UNESCO status.

Has UNESCO themselves said anything on the matter?

 

[zwk500]

Has UNESCO themselves said anything on the matter?

I don't know, but it's Bath City Council who have to give planning permission. And the UNESCO listing for Bath covers pretty much the entire city center, including the rail station and line, and UNESCO have recently started getting a lot tougher, even removing Liverpool's listing for the Stanley Dock Stadium approval.
NR did produce some quite neat designs for the Sydney Gardens stretch but I'm not sure what the plans were for the section visible on the hillside near the Station.

 

[snowball]

I would want to see some evidence before assuming that opposition from Bath City Council played any part in Grayling's decision to put electrification on hold (or whatever term he used) between Chippenham and Bristol, or in the failure (to date) of subsequent governments to re-activate it.

I am also not convinced that UNESCO listing would have been a major obstacle. It might have led to a few design iterations.

 

[zwk500]

I would want to see some evidence before assuming that opposition from Bath City Council played any part in Grayling's decision to put electrification on hold (or whatever term he used) between Chippenham and Bristol, or in the failure (to date) of subsequent governments to re-activate it.

I am also not convinced that UNESCO listing would have been a major obstacle. It might have led to a few design iterations.

IIRC it was discussed at some length on another thread and a resident of Bath outlined the council's position.

I would imagine that there is not one single reason why electrification was dropped and has not been restarted, but rather a bundle of straws. However the presence of anything that can add cost would be a problem, and with the steady removal of all other obstacles (e.g. Bristol TM remodeling and resignalling) the additional cost of designing sympathetic OLE remains a potential hiccup, especially when the government is reluctant to commit money to capital projects.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't know, but it's Bath City Council who have to give planning permission. And the UNESCO listing for Bath covers pretty much the entire city center, including the rail station and line, and UNESCO have recently started getting a lot tougher, even removing Liverpool's listing for the Stanley Dock Stadium approval.
NR did produce some quite neat designs for the Sydney Gardens stretch but I'm not sure what the plans were for the section visible on the hillside near the Station.

Bath City Council don't have greatest form in recent years of worrying about UNESCO, or looks, here is a recent street view looking towards Abbey and Roman Baths. Blocks of concrete (not even blocks of Bath stone) making up street furniture.

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With relatively low speed limits near Bath station, ought to be able to make some poles and paint them to blend in, without having to use ugly heavyweight masts. They are not going to be any more unsightly than the tall streetlights and signal pole

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[zwk500]

Bath City Council don't have greatest form in recent years of worrying about UNESCO, or looks, here is a recent street view looking towards Abbey and Roman Baths. Blocks of concrete (not even blocks of Bath stone) making up street furniture.

Hypocrisy has never been able to hold a politician back.

With relatively low speed limits near Bath station, ought to be able to make some poles and paint them to blend in, without having to use ugly heavyweight masts. They are not going to be any more unsightly than the tall streetlights and signal pole

NR have come up with designs, but a bespoke solution does cost more. From what I remember of the other thread, Bath Council opposed any OLE until all trains through the city could be made fully electric, which would require Hybrid or battery units (or electrification) of the Bath-Westbury line and onwards to Weymouth and Southampton.
Whether they would be able to sustain such opposition in the face of a Government and NR determined to get the line electrified, I cannot say. NR may be able to use permitted development rules, or get some other order from the DfT/Home Sec that authorised electrification above the heads of the City Council. However that would require a government being willing to have that particular political fight, which I think will not be before the next election given the recent By-election results.
I'd love to see Chippenham-Bristol finished, and there are definitely ways to do it. But it will probably need to wait until it's a clear choke point for the political games to shift.

 

[eldomtom2]

and UNESCO have recently started getting a lot tougher, even removing Liverpool's listing for the Stanley Dock Stadium approval.

That involved much more drastic redevelopment than putting up some wires...

 

[The exile]

I was of the opinion that the Bristol Suburban and Cardiff Valley electrifications should have happened before the GWML electrification, so that the teams had a chance to 'cut their teeth' so to speak, before getting out onto the mainline for the runs out to London.

The difficulty with that is that it loads the cost “up front” as in general it’s the suburban bits that are expensive.

 

[zwk500]

The difficulty with that is that it loads the cost “up front” as in general it’s the suburban bits that are expensive.

Which would, in retrospect, have been better to have committed the cash and got the most beneficial bits done. Given bi-modes were needed anyway if Didcot-Bristol Parkway had been dropped because of cost overruns it would have been easier to pick up later.
However it didn't happen like that so we are where we are.

That involved much more drastic redevelopment than putting up some wires...

Although at the same time it's arguably a less dramatic change to the cityscape, and the UNESCO listing in liverpool was far more limited than it is for Bath.

 

[Class 317]

Electrification from Bristol Parkway to TEmple Meads would probably provide a big enough Catenary island to allow BEMU'S to operate all the Bristol area suburban services.

It would possibly also allow the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains to switch as well although an additional Catenary island might be needed here or electrification Temple Meads to Chippenham to reduce the length of the wires. If electrification through Bath proves difficult then electrification around Westbury may also work as a Catenary island which could then form the first stage of a future Mendips to Newbury scheme for the stone trains.

Electrification via traditional overheads would be very poor value on lines like these and waste limited resources.