350's and 360's compatibility, and a little rant on micro-fleets.

[NXEA!]

I was thinking earlier considering they were both built by Siemens within a few years of each other (in the 350/1's case), were the 350's built with a 360 working capability in mind? Are there any issues such as software which would prevent it from happening? And also I realise they both have Dellner couplings but are they different heights? The reason I ask this is because earlier I was thinking about how hardly any operators have uniform fleets. In my head I was plotting a small cascade resulting in the 360's being split in to two fleets, with 7 going to LM to displace the 321's to NXEA, and the other 14 going to FCC to displace the other 13 321's to NXEA. LM and NXEA get uniform fleets and FCC get some newer trains. Don't ask why I was thinking about this, I was just having a random think about how things could be improved. But does anybody agree with me on how its bad that operators have non-standard microfleets when with a bit of cascading quite a few of these could be ridden of? It seems like bad planning on the DfT's part for leaving small fleets at TOC's such as the 7 321's at LM.

 

[fgwrich]

I was thinking earlier considering they were both built by Siemens within a few years of each other (in the 350/1's case), were the 350's built with a 360 working capability in mind? Are there any issues such as software which would prevent it from happening? And also I realise they both have Dellner couplings but are they different heights? The reason I ask this is because earlier I was thinking about how hardly any operators have uniform fleets. In my head I was plotting a small cascade resulting in the 360's being split in to two fleets, with 7 going to LM to displace the 321's to NXEA, and the other 14 going to FCC to displace the other 13 321's to NXEA. LM and NXEA get uniform fleets and FCC get some newer trains. Don't ask why I was thinking about this, I was just having a random think about how things could be improved. But does anybody agree with me on how its bad that operators have non-standard microfleets when with a bit of cascading quite a few of these could be ridden of? It seems like bad planning on the DfT's part for leaving small fleets at TOC's such as the 7 321's at LM.

Does anyone know what’s happened to the European new rolling stock notice put out by London Midland? Either last year or the year before? Because...

What id go for would be something on the lines of:

London Midland orders a new batch of either 350s or Desiro City units, This then displaces the 323s to Northern Rail, and possibly even displaces the 321s if thurther 350s are constructed...

Northern Rail then gains the complete 323 fleet; this is then further met by...

Thameslink Arriving and...

First Great Western gains East Anglia’s 360 Fleet - displaced by the 7 LM 321s and 321s or 317s from FCC...This being met by the former Heathrow Connect 360s - Giving First Great Western a more uniform fleet ot 26 Desiros for Thames valley services...

Would any of that work? FGW currently has 21 166s & 36 165s - While this would relive the 166 fleet, it also solves the problem of what to do with 5 360s displaced by Heathrow Connect / Crossrail...

And another suggestion for the displacement of 165s would be to electrify the Greenford branch, and merge it into Crossrail, possibly as a branch run from Crossrail's Paddington station - possibly extending the electrification thurther up towards Ruislip?

Just trying to work out a way which various units can be cascaded around the country - mostly by reducing the micro fleets we currently have - And Although it would mean Northern Rail wouldn't be receiving any newer stock for a while, it would certainly give the Northern Franchise a fair shove up on Electrified units and capacity - More uniformed fleet of 323s - which can displace the pacer fleets running on electrified lines, and with thurther electrification, more 319s displaced from Thameslink & the GWML...

 

[Aictos]

LM ought to have ordered enough 350/1s to cascade all their 321s to other TOCs, that aside I think it is a waste to have so many micro fleets, least SWT has it right partly!

 

[NSE]

Does anyone know what’s happened to the European new rolling stock notice put out by London Midland? Either last year or the year before? Because...

What id go for would be something on the lines of:

London Midland orders a new batch of either 350s or Desiro City units, This then displaces the 323s to Northern Rail, and possibly even displaces the 321s if thurther 350s are constructed...

Northern Rail then gains the complete 323 fleet; this is then further met by...

Thameslink Arriving and...

First Great Western gains East Anglia’s 360 Fleet - displaced by the 7 LM 321s and 321s or 317s from FCC...This being met by the former Heathrow Connect 360s - Giving First Great Western a more uniform fleet ot 26 Desiros for Thames valley services...

Would any of that work? FGW currently has 21 166s & 36 165s - While this would relive the 166 fleet, it also solves the problem of what to do with 5 360s displaced by Heathrow Connect / Crossrail...

And another suggestion for the displacement of 165s would be to electrify the Greenford branch, and merge it into Crossrail, possibly as a branch run from Crossrail's Paddington station - possibly extending the electrification thurther up towards Ruislip?

Just trying to work out a way which various units can be cascaded around the country - mostly by reducing the micro fleets we currently have - And Although it would mean Northern Rail wouldn't be receiving any newer stock for a while, it would certainly give the Northern Franchise a fair shove up on Electrified units and capacity - More uniformed fleet of 323s - which can displace the pacer fleets running on electrified lines, and with thurther electrification, more 319s displaced from Thameslink & the GWML...

Only thing I see, is what allows the FCC stock to be displaced? Is this hoping the arrivals from the Thameslink program will allow for the 317/321's to be released? I hope the 365's stay with FCC I like them and hate to think they'd be given to someone else!

 

[fgwrich]

Only thing I see, is what allows the FCC stock to be displaced? Is this hoping the arrivals from the Thameslink program will allow for the 317/321's to be released? I hope the 365's stay with FCC I like them and hate to think they'd be given to someone else!

That's the big i havent worked out yet, as until the Thameslink rolling stock is sorted out and the allocation have been made, im non the wiser...

Will London Overground take the 313 operated services off FCCs hands? Iff so, then theres the 313s to take into account, And how much of the Great Northern routes will Thameslink take over? Apart from the through Gatwick-Camebridge services of course...And as IEP is unfortunatly set to run on the Camebridge fast services too...

So going back to my plan a moment, if Thameslink takes over some of the Camebridge services, with IEP Taking 50%, Thameslink - 30% And GN 20 - Thats 80% Of the current services taken over by newer rolling stock...Now as FCC currently has a fleet consisting of 03, 313, 317, 319,321,365 & 377/5...If LOROL Takes over some services...313s are gone...If IEP runs to Camebridge/Kings Lynn...Thats either the 317s or 365s replaced or reduced...leaving really only the 321s - which id suspect would be the first to go compared to the 365s...And of course the 319s & 377s are set to go with Thameslink arriving too...

Note though - some of this is probably wrong, but im just going from a mix of memory & magazines/articles...but its also how im guessing it is too - oh and those numbers, ive just made up as a rough estimate just to get an indea of FCC/IEP/Thameslink...

Rolling stock allocations - Confusing? Especially FCCs!

 

[swt_passenger]

LM ought to have ordered enough 350/1s to cascade all their 321s to other TOCs, that aside I think it is a waste to have so many micro fleets, least SWT has it right partly!

The 350/1s were extras diverted from SWT for Central/Silverlink County WCML services. LM did originally order enough 350/2s to cascade all their 321s, ie 37. The decision to keep 7 x 321s was made much later - they were supposed to have gone to c2c.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Will London Overground take the 313 operated services off FCCs hands? If so, then theres the 313s to take into account,

Not according to any published plans. But if people keep posting it maybe TfL will eventually give in and take it on.

And how much of the Great Northern routes will Thameslink take over? Apart from the through Gatwick-Camebridge services of course...And as IEP is unfortunatly set to run on the Camebridge fast services too...

Listed in the London and SE draft 2nd gen RUS - however they don't confirm any long distance 'north/south' pairings, ie they haven't shown if they'll necessarily link Cambridge to Gatwick - but it does seem likely.

The anticipated service level includes 16 trains per hour from the MML (a mixture of semi-fast and stopping services) and eight trains per hour from the ECML (a mixture of fast and stopping services). Destinations to be served are not fixed, so these may change in the future:
(MML)
Bedford - eight x 12-car
Luton - two x eight-car & two x 12-car
St Albans - four x eight-car
(ECML)
Welwyn Garden City - four x eight-car
Peterborough - two x 12-car
Cambridge - two x 12-car

But why is IEP 'unfortunate' for Cambridge fasts? The idea is surely that they can be pathed in 125 mph slots out of Kings Cross as far as Hitchin to allow more LDHS services to run.

 

[tbtc]

The problems of micro-fleets is one of my big bugbears...

There are enough 323s to run all current Lancashire EMU services for Northern plus all the new routes getting wired up (including the current TPE service to Blackpool, but ignoring the current TPE Scottish service which needs longer-distance stock).

You could reconfigure the 360s (post Crossrail) into sixteen three car units and eleven six car units - give these to LM (the six car units being handy for the Cross City line), displacing a similar number of 323s to Northern. Northern get a standard allocation of EMUs west of the Pennines, LM get the compatability of 350s and 360s. Except for the problem that they don't seem as compatible as they should be...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's the big i havent worked out yet, as until the Thameslink rolling stock is sorted out and the allocation have been made, im non the wiser...

Will London Overground take the 313 operated services off FCCs hands? Iff so, then theres the 313s to take into account, And how much of the Great Northern routes will Thameslink take over? Apart from the through Gatwick-Camebridge services of course...And as IEP is unfortunatly set to run on the Camebridge fast services too...

So going back to my plan a moment, if Thameslink takes over some of the Camebridge services, with IEP Taking 50%, Thameslink - 30% And GN 20 - Thats 80% Of the current services taken over by newer rolling stock...Now as FCC currently has a fleet consisting of 03, 313, 317, 319,321,365 & 377/5...If LOROL Takes over some services...313s are gone...If IEP runs to Camebridge/Kings Lynn...Thats either the 317s or 365s replaced or reduced...leaving really only the 321s - which id suspect would be the first to go compared to the 365s...And of course the 319s & 377s are set to go with Thameslink arriving too...

Note though - some of this is probably wrong, but im just going from a mix of memory & magazines/articles...but its also how im guessing it is too - oh and those numbers, ive just made up as a rough estimate just to get an indea of FCC/IEP/Thameslink...

Rolling stock allocations - Confusing? Especially FCCs!

If FCC gets split into
1. Thameslink (with new EMUs, extending to Cambridge/Peterborough too)
2. Cambridge "fasts"/ Kings Lynn (with IEP)
3. Moorgate (with 313s)

...then I can't see any need for the 365s. They'd only stay around on the Cambridge services until IEP (unless I am missing something)

 

[jopsuk]

Will the other (five car) 360s be going spare once Crossrail is up and running?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will the other (five car) 360s be going spare once Crossrail is up and running?

Yes, that's the plan - and of course if some other recommendations happen the HEx 332s will be spare as well...

 

[tbtc]

Will the other (five car) 360s be going spare once Crossrail is up and running?

I don't know whether the one HEX unit would be free (the one which just shuttles between Heathrow terminals) - will Crossrail replace this too?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know whether the one HEX unit would be free (the one which just shuttles between Heathrow terminals) - will Crossrail replace this too?

I'd say it's highly probable, because the shuttle is really there to fill in the gaps in Connect's current half hourly service - and that will be doubled to 4 tph under Crossrail.

Assuming all the other 360s go elsewhere, having only a single unit (although they might want a spare as well) to run the shuttle really is a 'microfleet'.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It's worth noting that FGE originally wanted to order a bigger fleet of Class 360's but were prevented from doing so by the department of transport.

 

[387star]

Do 350s (which are 450s in disguise) have the same seating in First Class as is used in standard class on 377s? It looks the same!

Personally I don't think the 450s are so bad and this Portsmouth based argument about the seats (yet again in RAIL) seems a bit OTT when in the North they put up with pacers! The 450 is smooth, air-conditioned and the seats are more springy than those used on southern trains!

If the 350/2s are anything like that they are a good train!

Finally those 360s are looking a bit run down these days? (in recent photos I have seen) Time for a refresh IMO